Christmas special: LIVE recording part one | Man Up / Man Down

Christmas special: LIVE recording part one – a roundtable discussion on what it means to be a man in 2023/24

This special episode is the first part of our live recording, which took place in Brighton at the end of November.

Our panel included Louise Chunn, CEO of our sponsor Welldoing, Stewart Cumming, head of operations at Dad La Soul and Mick Rigby, CEO of Yodel Mobile (who recorded a great episode with us in the first season, discussing his dyslexia and ADHD diagnosis in his 50s.

During Louise’s keynote address, she discussed the changing landscape of men’s mental health and how Princes William and Harry had driven the conversation forward by discussing their mental health challenges.

She also praised the work Volker and David had done in encouraging men to talk through the podcast.

We weren’t expecting so much engagement from the audience (which we were absolutely delighted with), so apologies if the audio isn’t as clear when it comes to audience discussions – this will certainly be improved for future events.

The audience expressed a range of views and charged the debate.

These were the views of individuals and not necessarily ones that represent Volker and David, but it was clear that there is a lot of confusion about what exactly a man’s role is in 2023/24.

Topics that were discussed were:

·      Why do men not talk as much as they need to?

·      Do men still feel weak discussing their vulnerabilities?

·      Is it a weakness to discuss vulnerabilities?

·      What is the role of employers in helping men and women with mental health support?

·      How easy is it for an employee to raise concerns about their mental health or neurodiversity issues?

·      What role does social media play in causing confusion in the role men play in modern society (should we be more masculine, more vulnerable, a better financial provider, provide more emotional support)?

·      What emotional support do we expect from our partners as “traditional male/female roles” become blurred?

·      What impact did the pandemic and lockdown have on us?

·      What responsibility do we need to take for our own mental health?

A big thanks again to our sponsors Fat Fish Digital Infigo and Welldoing and everyone that took the time and money to join us for the event.

Keep your eyes peeled for the next one in 2024!

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

[00:00.000 --> 00:12.720] Welcome to the Man Up, Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey. [00:12.720 --> 00:16.840] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often [00:16.840 --> 00:20.520] too embarrassed to speak about with our friends. [00:20.520 --> 00:26.800] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com. [00:26.800 --> 00:35.600] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. [00:35.600 --> 00:42.820] Hello everyone, welcome to another very special episode of Man Up, Man Down. [00:42.820 --> 00:48.960] So if you haven't hit underneath a stone, I think that's an expression of the last few [00:48.960 --> 00:56.120] weeks, you would have seen because we talked about it a lot on social media that David [00:56.120 --> 01:04.400] and I hosted a live podcast panel, if you like, in Brighton in November. [01:04.400 --> 01:11.760] And we delighted to now share this recording with all our listeners and hopefully it inspires [01:11.760 --> 01:14.280] you a bit and big you see some food for thought. [01:14.280 --> 01:21.240] We thought the discussion was amazing, we had about 20, 25 people in the room, so for first [01:21.240 --> 01:23.600] event we were really pleased. [01:23.600 --> 01:29.400] So on that note, first of all, thanks to our sponsors, Well-Doing of course, Infigo [01:29.400 --> 01:34.360] and Fat Fish Digital, you know, if I say took to your loss who's listening to it now and [01:34.360 --> 01:40.320] you end their life, they put some money behind the bar so we all had a free drink or two. [01:40.320 --> 01:47.480] And thanks of course to the panel, so there was Luis from Well-Doing, there was Stuart from [01:47.480 --> 01:54.480] that La Soul and Mick, who you might remember, he was diagnosed with attention deficit and [01:54.480 --> 01:58.360] dyslexia and was on the podcast early on this year. [01:58.360 --> 02:02.040] So they were on the panel, so yeah, enjoy it. [02:02.040 --> 02:06.640] I'm going to give David a few minutes to talk as well, but before I do that, I wanted to [02:06.640 --> 02:13.000] read something out because we got a really lovely email from a listener recently. [02:13.000 --> 02:17.920] We do get some emails, we would love to get some more feedback, but with podcasting as [02:17.920 --> 02:23.400] it all happens and I've been doing it well for a few years, you know, you don't often [02:23.400 --> 02:28.200] get the feedback, so it's really lovely to receive feedback and even lovelier to get something [02:28.200 --> 02:29.200] like this. [02:29.200 --> 02:34.000] So one of the listeners, he listened to the new diversity in middle-age episode and that's [02:34.000 --> 02:38.400] obviously an episode that's close to our heart as well, and I'm sorry just to clarify, he [02:38.400 --> 02:40.800] has given us permission to read this out. [02:40.800 --> 02:46.600] So he said this episode has sparked something in me, despite professional achievements, [02:46.600 --> 02:52.400] a wonderful family looking from an external viewpoint having everything you want and need. [02:52.400 --> 02:58.280] I found myself grappling with the sense that something is a quotation marks role. [02:58.280 --> 03:04.240] I attributed these emotions to introversion and the tendency to be somewhat melancholic. [03:04.240 --> 03:10.440] However, Yashore has prompted a profound reflection and in David's narrative, I discovered [03:10.440 --> 03:14.280] many similarities with my own experiences. [03:14.280 --> 03:20.640] So the reason I'm so pleased about this email is because to that listener, you know, not [03:20.640 --> 03:25.920] only David makes a difference now by emailing, I can tell us, and I don't know what they're [03:25.920 --> 03:28.840] planning, maybe they go and play some golf together. [03:28.840 --> 03:34.440] We're not planning, we're not going to run off without you, Volka. [03:34.440 --> 03:36.560] It's just nice to see and hear that feedback. [03:37.560 --> 03:42.480] You know, you're listening, if you say you out there listening to us, you're listening [03:42.480 --> 03:47.760] to our guests, and you can actually explore something inside yourself, you see a reflection [03:47.760 --> 03:54.200] of yourself, and it might spark you to look at your own life and maybe make improvements [03:54.200 --> 03:56.240] or drill down on things. [03:56.240 --> 04:01.880] I mean, just at time of recording, we recorded an episode with someone today who talked about [04:01.880 --> 04:08.880] a suicide attempt, and we dug a little bit deeper there, and that episode will obviously [04:08.880 --> 04:14.840] go live in the new year, and it's just nice that people are willing to talk. [04:14.840 --> 04:16.920] We always talked about that. [04:16.920 --> 04:20.880] People need to talk, and people are happy to share their experience. [04:20.880 --> 04:28.280] As we always say, if you can save one life on this podcast, then our job is done. [04:28.280 --> 04:32.160] So anyway, before I become emotional, as David always says, I had a little bit of David [04:32.160 --> 04:37.840] for a few words and enjoys this episode, it will be split into two parts going live, you [04:37.840 --> 04:46.040] know, the two Thursdays before Christmas, and from my site, have a very happy, merry Christmas. [04:46.040 --> 04:51.720] A good start into the new year, and we see you all next year, and please send us some [04:51.720 --> 04:54.640] emails to popcast at menupdown.com. [04:55.640 --> 05:00.880] So it's a good job that you read that out, because I don't even know my own email address. [05:00.880 --> 05:07.920] I think Volcker said it all really, but yeah, I think the live event, I was very stressed [05:07.920 --> 05:13.640] in the build up to it, but we always tried to see it as sort of a learning experience, and [05:13.640 --> 05:20.360] I mean, well, you know, I wish that we'd had a mobile mic, a mic at the back. [05:20.360 --> 05:22.520] We were hoping for audience engagement. [05:22.520 --> 05:28.200] I thought that might be difficult to kind of get that going, but you know, it was great. [05:28.200 --> 05:34.320] And, you know, I don't know, it really did show that there's lots of men that just want [05:34.320 --> 05:40.560] to talk and, you know, talk about, well, I guess all the questions that we dig into, [05:40.560 --> 05:47.160] you know, what does it mean to be a man, you know, in 2023 slash 2024? [05:47.160 --> 05:52.880] But yeah, we're certainly going to be doing another one, not booking in just quite yet. [05:52.880 --> 05:58.640] Let most stressed levels go down a bit, but I'm sure sort of, you know, early New Year, [05:58.640 --> 06:00.880] we'll have some news around that. [06:00.880 --> 06:03.920] Thanks to everyone for tuning in. [06:03.920 --> 06:10.440] Thanks to Volcker for keeping things always chugging on, and, well, enjoy the live show. [06:10.440 --> 06:11.440] Thank you. [06:12.440 --> 06:16.840] I'd like to introduce you to Louise, founder of Well-Doing. [06:16.840 --> 06:21.680] You've probably all heard the episode, but she didn't do an incredible episode for us. [06:21.680 --> 06:27.880] She was in formerly journalism, came up with the idea of Well-Doing, fantastic demonstration [06:27.880 --> 06:33.320] of it's never too late to change your career and do what you want to do. [06:33.320 --> 06:36.960] But without further ado, take it away, Louise. [06:36.960 --> 06:37.960] Thanks, David. [06:37.960 --> 06:40.240] It's really great to be here with you all. [06:40.240 --> 06:46.240] It feels very strange, I have to say, let's take me back to the 1970s visiting my brother's [06:46.240 --> 06:48.600] at boarding school. [06:48.600 --> 06:52.600] Although probably I look very different. [06:52.600 --> 06:57.240] Anyway, moving along, I'm Louise Chun, I'm the founder of Well-Doing. [06:57.240 --> 06:59.320] We're a therapist matching platform. [06:59.320 --> 07:03.520] We help people find the right therapist for their needs. [07:04.240 --> 07:09.240] We're very proud to be sponsors of the Man Up, Man Down podcast. [07:09.240 --> 07:11.880] And as David says, I've already appeared on it. [07:11.880 --> 07:17.440] I fund the subjects for discussion and natural conversations, really illuminating. [07:17.440 --> 07:20.920] And I believe they're supported for their audience. [07:20.920 --> 07:25.840] And to me, that's a really key detail in a podcast like this. [07:25.840 --> 07:30.520] I started Well-Doing about nine years ago, after three decades of working in the media. [07:31.000 --> 07:35.000] Now, I'd worked on newspapers like The Guardian, but most of the time, I was here to travel [07:35.000 --> 07:41.280] women's magazine from just 17 to good housekeeping from in-style to psychologies. [07:41.280 --> 07:46.400] And at the start of Well-Doing, the work was not so very different from working on a [07:46.400 --> 07:50.720] women's magazine, but without the free lipsticks. [07:50.720 --> 07:55.280] Most therapists were middle-Asian female, and the greatest segment of clients was very much [07:55.280 --> 07:56.920] the same. [07:56.920 --> 08:00.120] Men were quite clearly underrepresented. [08:00.120 --> 08:04.080] Some things began to change, and we had more young people. [08:04.080 --> 08:07.040] That was initially where we noticed the change. [08:07.040 --> 08:11.480] Some of these young people were male, but often they worked in high-octane industries [08:11.480 --> 08:14.680] like finance, startups, law. [08:14.680 --> 08:19.680] And they often were looking for help with managing stress or negotiating relationships. [08:19.680 --> 08:26.960] Then, in 2016, Princess William and Harry launched Heads Together. [08:26.960 --> 08:30.960] If you can remember that, when they used to still speak to each other. [08:30.960 --> 08:33.840] And things started to really change. [08:33.840 --> 08:38.320] All sorts of well-known people started to talk about their issues. [08:38.320 --> 08:43.280] Sports people, young and old, actors, comedians, politicians, bankers. [08:43.280 --> 08:47.400] In amongst all of that, there were certainly lots of women, but there were also increasing [08:47.400 --> 08:49.640] numbers of men. [08:49.640 --> 08:53.160] And it changed the temperature around mental health. [08:53.160 --> 08:58.920] The reception was less icy and hard, and it became a warmer subject, more empathetic [08:58.920 --> 09:01.400] with more understanding. [09:01.400 --> 09:06.800] You didn't have to feel like a freak if you were struggling and spoke about it. [09:06.800 --> 09:09.480] It became okay to not be okay. [09:09.480 --> 09:15.600] For some slogans on social media are just what's needed to get them through tough times. [09:15.600 --> 09:19.520] But talking to a trusted person can be hugely helpful. [09:19.520 --> 09:24.760] For some people, that will be a friend or a relative or a lover, but an increasing number [09:24.760 --> 09:27.080] are seeking a professional. [09:27.080 --> 09:31.880] Someone who's had rigorous training, has evidence for their treatment, will be measuring their [09:31.880 --> 09:36.760] progress and resiliency and can be trusted with the secrets that you may never have shared [09:36.760 --> 09:38.200] with another person. [09:38.200 --> 09:40.720] Men are challenged in different ways from women. [09:40.720 --> 09:46.200] I mean, I hope I can say things like that here. [09:46.200 --> 09:50.080] They may feel they have a much greater pressure to take responsibility for their families, [09:50.080 --> 09:51.080] for example. [09:51.080 --> 09:53.520] They may feel they can't show their emotions. [09:53.520 --> 09:59.320] They may struggle with their relationship, but be afraid to speak up about their doubts. [09:59.320 --> 10:04.120] Money can be a terrible source of shame and stress, and work is often viewed much more [10:04.120 --> 10:09.000] as a sign of status or failure than it is often for women. [10:09.000 --> 10:11.680] Or like brackets, not all women. [10:11.680 --> 10:15.400] Often men don't want to show any vulnerability at all. [10:15.400 --> 10:20.080] Many struggle with anger as their fallback when life isn't going as expected, and for [10:20.080 --> 10:26.000] more men than women coping strategies like alcohol, drugs, porn or sex can become addictive. [10:26.000 --> 10:30.960] The statistics still show that men are less likely than women to seek therapy, but at [10:30.960 --> 10:35.520] well-doing we're delighted to say that we are seeing a definite uptick in men wanting [10:35.520 --> 10:37.680] to speak to a therapist. [10:37.680 --> 10:41.080] All of the issues are listed above are the sorts of things that they are looking for help [10:41.080 --> 10:42.680] with. [10:42.680 --> 10:47.720] As well as really quite nuanced things like getting to know themselves better, and wondering [10:47.720 --> 10:53.800] why they aren't more grateful for their wives or girlfriends, truly that is the kind of thing [10:53.800 --> 10:56.680] too that people might want to see a therapist about. [10:56.680 --> 11:02.040] Therapy is not the most embarrassing thing you could ever imagine, but sitting in a room [11:02.040 --> 11:08.360] with somebody or being on a Zoom session with them every week or so, it does require effort [11:08.360 --> 11:13.880] and it is not like anything else that most of you would ever have done before. [11:13.880 --> 11:18.200] You have to be screwpulously honest with yourself, otherwise what is the point? [11:18.200 --> 11:24.120] You may as well go and have a massage instead, and clients often feel very bad at various [11:24.120 --> 11:29.800] points in their treatment, and yet 75% of people who have seen a therapist would recommend it [11:29.800 --> 11:31.720] to a friend or relative. [11:31.720 --> 11:36.080] I hope that if you should ever feel the need, you will take a look at well-doing. [11:36.720 --> 11:41.760] Yes, you will find a verified professional therapist or counsellor there if that's what you want, [11:41.760 --> 11:47.440] but you will also find several thousand stories and videos devoted to mental health and well-being. [11:47.440 --> 11:52.400] Just like this event, sometimes what we all need is support from a community, [11:52.400 --> 11:55.680] and that's what Volcker and David have been building with Mandum, [11:56.480 --> 12:01.680] and I'm delighted to be with you all tonight, and to join in the live version of the podcast. [12:06.560 --> 12:12.720] Thank you, Luis, for those kind words. [12:12.720 --> 12:15.760] I mean, I guess a good start just to be to introduce the panel. [12:15.760 --> 12:17.520] Got Stuart coming from Dad LaSoul. [12:19.040 --> 12:22.000] Would you like to tell us a bit about Dad LaSoul? [12:22.000 --> 12:28.960] Yeah, hi, Dad LaSoul is a community group for dads, so founded six, seven years ago by our founder, [12:28.960 --> 12:35.120] Dan, sadly could make it tonight, and set up to create spaces and communities for dads just to [12:35.120 --> 12:41.600] connect. We run dads only, and dad, and kid meet-ups. The dad and kid meet-ups, we run in [12:41.600 --> 12:46.960] Brighton and Werthing, where we found it, with space for dads to come with their kids and meet [12:46.960 --> 12:52.080] other dads have a cup of tea, we host events with them, anything from crafting sessions to [12:52.080 --> 12:58.240] skills workshops, and then we have the dads only meet-ups. So again, we have VR headsets, pool, [12:58.240 --> 13:03.440] we have a beer, and we just chat, you know, the space for dads to fight isolation, [13:03.520 --> 13:09.120] find communities, find new friends, and realise that focusing on themselves can help [13:09.120 --> 13:11.200] their life and better those around them. [13:12.160 --> 13:14.240] Would you like to introduce yourself? [13:14.240 --> 13:22.000] I'm Nick Rigby. I am the founder of an app marketing business. We're based in London, but we operate [13:22.000 --> 13:28.880] globally. We are, I think, the most awarded business doing what we do anywhere in the world, [13:28.960 --> 13:34.640] so really successful. However, and I guess the reason I'm here today is because [13:35.680 --> 13:45.520] about a year and a half ago, I went to see a psychologist who then pronounced that I was dyslexic, [13:45.520 --> 13:54.000] and I have a tension deficit disorder. So at the age of 54, I discovered I guess why I was [13:54.000 --> 13:59.280] doing a lot of things that I did, and why there was a lot of things that I would have liked to be [13:59.280 --> 14:04.880] able to do that I couldn't do. So it was quite an experience, quite a revelation, [14:06.080 --> 14:09.520] but I guess that's the reason I'm here, unless you want me to talk about it. [14:09.520 --> 14:13.440] I'm not, I don't want to talk about that. [14:13.440 --> 14:16.720] I don't want anyone who's just jumped me on the end. [14:16.720 --> 14:18.240] I don't know, I don't know, they're just kind of familiar with that. [14:18.240 --> 14:26.960] You're all welcome for my side spot, so thanks for being here, but David Lee tonight, [14:26.960 --> 14:31.920] you know, lots of cheerful stats that we've got on the screens behind us about suicide. [14:33.360 --> 14:40.880] I mean, I guess sort of one of the sort of themes that I sort of felt today's event loosely tied [14:40.880 --> 14:45.920] together is sort of loneliness, it meant, I mean, I think, you know, that's especially where [14:46.000 --> 14:52.000] that assault has come from. I mean, sort of having neurodiversity issues myself, [14:52.000 --> 14:56.880] you know, the bit loneliness that can come from that, you know, feeling like a bit of a square [14:56.880 --> 15:02.800] peg in a round hole. And, you know, as Louise said, you know, there is a bit of a shift, I think, [15:02.800 --> 15:07.920] and men talking about their mental health, but, you know, it's still getting there. I mean, [15:07.920 --> 15:13.600] obviously you talked about the princes and how they sort of brought men talking about mental health [15:13.600 --> 15:20.640] before. Netflix at the moment is Robbie Williams' documentary, which was one of the most powerful [15:20.640 --> 15:27.520] sort of common trees on mental health that I've seen, you know, sort of Britain's biggest [15:27.520 --> 15:33.680] entertainment, talking about performance anxiety, and, you know, not feeling good enough. There's also [15:33.680 --> 15:39.840] Paul Mercer, one talking about addiction, gambling addiction, you know, so it does seem that men [15:39.840 --> 15:46.400] are still talking, but, well, I mean, I'm just going to do a quick pop quiz. I mean, who in the [15:46.400 --> 15:53.040] audience has suffered from mental health issues and has openly expressed that at the time? [15:54.720 --> 16:00.720] Well, a few hands have got up. That's good. Let's see what my wife is here. She knows when things [16:00.720 --> 16:08.000] aren't going well, but I don't say I'm not feeling too good at the moment, darling. It's, I guess, [16:08.000 --> 16:14.880] it's expressed in a more of a defensive spiky way. Why don't men talk, and why do we need to talk more? [16:15.440 --> 16:20.880] Well, I think, you know, we often find, and I've personally experienced it, we put ourselves last, [16:20.880 --> 16:25.920] you know, if you're a father, you're a husband, you know, or, you know, you're an employer, [16:25.920 --> 16:30.560] whatever it may be, you put yourself last. And actually, it's so counterintuitive when you [16:30.560 --> 16:36.800] stop and think about it. It took me years to do it personally, to just go actually focusing on myself, [16:36.800 --> 16:42.800] looking after myself, acknowledging my issues and my weaknesses, and where I have struggles, [16:42.800 --> 16:48.400] all make me a better father, a better partner, a better employer. But yeah, often, you know, [16:48.400 --> 16:52.720] it's just, you put yourself last because you, you know, there are those traditional roles that we [16:52.720 --> 16:57.520] still do, unfortunately, stick to occasionally for our detriment of trying to be the provider, [16:57.520 --> 17:02.800] look after, and we do feel those pressures. You know, I was just, I gained back my full-time [17:02.800 --> 17:08.960] career to be a stay-at-home dad. So, you know, we don't have the traditional sort of relationship. [17:08.960 --> 17:15.440] And yeah, you know, there's often sort of that feeling of, am I not a real man because I'm not [17:15.440 --> 17:22.080] the main breadwinner? I guess, you know, there is a bit of an issue in terms of my self-worth there, [17:22.080 --> 17:28.160] but then at the same time, I sort of feel the relationship I have with my children certainly [17:28.160 --> 17:33.680] isn't one that I had with my parents. So yeah, I think, you know, there is a lot of sort of [17:33.680 --> 17:38.160] that balance, really. Volker, do you have anything to add? [17:38.160 --> 17:43.200] I'm about to go right as I get a parent to speak, but so the relationship with the kids is better, [17:43.200 --> 17:46.480] or worse than with your parents? Oh yeah, no, I'd say it's a lot better. [17:46.480 --> 17:50.480] Yeah. Well, I think I can talk about my children's interests and their friends. [17:50.480 --> 17:56.080] Yeah. Certainly, a lot more than, you know, my parents with no sort of about my life. [17:56.960 --> 18:04.320] So what do we think needs a shift? Is it because we are more aware of what we need to do? [18:04.320 --> 18:08.880] Is it because we talk more about it? Because we're young in a generation. [18:08.880 --> 18:11.280] Is it because the older generation never talked about it? [18:11.280 --> 18:17.360] I think that's really interesting, because I don't necessarily see that there has been a shift. [18:17.360 --> 18:22.400] It's interesting, sort of with friends in WhatsApp groups, you know, everybody at my age, [18:23.200 --> 18:27.280] it's only recently, and I think through COVID, where people started putting kisses, [18:27.280 --> 18:32.000] at the end, you know, a group of lads, and then putting one person put a kiss, and then [18:32.000 --> 18:34.400] a couple of times later, you get a couple of little red hearts. [18:34.400 --> 18:39.280] I mean, it's kind of brought that, I think people will certainly sort of in those kind of groups, [18:39.280 --> 18:42.640] me, I'm starting to see people open up a little bit more. [18:42.640 --> 18:48.560] And maybe it is, you know, the horrors of COVID lockdown that has created that, but I don't know. [18:48.560 --> 18:56.720] I mean, I still find it very difficult to express my emotions, and certainly, you know, [18:56.720 --> 19:02.400] too, my wife is actually a psychologist, but, you know, so she manages to pull stuff out of me [19:02.400 --> 19:08.400] that perhaps I'm not happy to, to share, or phone it, very, very difficult. [19:08.400 --> 19:14.480] And I think suppressing, suppressing those sort of emotions has possibly sort of, [19:14.560 --> 19:22.080] I guess stunted my emotional growth, but when I found out that I was, you know, dyslexic and ADHD [19:22.080 --> 19:28.560] last year, that has given me an opportunity to talk about some of my challenges. [19:28.560 --> 19:34.000] And in doing so has probably allowed me to become more expressive about some of the [19:34.000 --> 19:38.160] my emotions, challenges that have gotten life, you know, and it's made me, [19:38.880 --> 19:44.800] it's made me able to share that. And also, I think because I, you know, I've talked about it on LinkedIn, [19:44.800 --> 19:50.000] I've talked about it in a lot of different forums, people start asking me about it because they [19:50.000 --> 19:55.040] also have the same challenges. And I think because of the position that I have in the business that I've [19:55.040 --> 20:00.000] got, it's not going to reflect negatively on me. You know, it's not as if I report into somebody [20:00.000 --> 20:04.880] that would have an issue finding out that I've got, you know, attention deficit disorder, for instance, [20:04.960 --> 20:11.760] in some organisations, that probably will be an issue. So, I'm super open in that environment, [20:11.760 --> 20:16.160] and by being open, I've started finding a lot more people would be more open to me. [20:17.440 --> 20:22.080] Man Up Man Down is sponsored by Well Doing. As someone who has seen a counsellor for a number [20:22.080 --> 20:25.920] of years, I think their approach is great. They want you to find the mental health professional [20:25.920 --> 20:30.240] who is right for you. You can feel to your search to highlight therapists with expertise [20:30.240 --> 20:34.160] where you need it, where you can pay to use their personalised matching service. [20:35.040 --> 20:39.040] The people who run Well Doing are experts in mental well-being, and they also have loads of [20:39.040 --> 20:44.160] posts and interviews to keep your mental health in good shape. Take a look at Well Doing.org. [20:46.160 --> 20:51.360] Hello, listeners. It's Volcker here. As you know, I called Schmidlach Men [20:52.000 --> 20:58.080] through their life transition. And I have a special Christmas offer for you. My package is [20:59.040 --> 21:05.280] four times 45 minutes video or audio contact time per month, unlimited email and WhatsApp support, [21:06.240 --> 21:11.440] and I work on a three-month engagement. I normally sell that for £1,000 per month, [21:12.560 --> 21:19.280] so that makes a total of £3,000 for three months. However, if you sign up before the end of the [21:19.280 --> 21:27.360] year, you get a three-month package for £2,000. Set the 33% savings. Just reach out to me, under my [21:27.440 --> 21:37.600] email, Volcker, so that's V-O-L-K-E-R, at www.opnade.us. That's O-B-N-A-T dot U-S. [21:38.160 --> 21:42.640] That's my new brand, which I will launch next year. I have five packages available, [21:43.360 --> 21:48.800] so hurry and let me know before the year's out. Thank you very much and have a Merry Christmas. [21:48.800 --> 21:58.080] Can I just say one thing and maybe you are with your small male children, [21:59.280 --> 22:06.400] maybe you do feel that you treat them the same as your small female children, but for generations [22:06.400 --> 22:13.040] and generations, people didn't. I've been around long enough to see that things have not changed a [22:13.040 --> 22:18.640] great deal with what's expected out of little boys and little girls. And some of the things [22:19.280 --> 22:26.800] seem to have gone, I'm talking maybe, I've got three children, two girls and a boy and there's [22:26.800 --> 22:35.840] quite a wide age range, two different fathers. The younger of the daughters, [22:37.280 --> 22:45.200] really, everything seemed to revert right back into traditional girly, pinky, dolly kind of thing, [22:45.200 --> 22:51.360] in a way that, with the older two, they were at the point, you know, born in the 80s, they were [22:51.360 --> 22:56.640] at the point where there was a pretty close sort of thing and then it just went completely back again [22:56.640 --> 23:02.320] to boys being brought up in a more boyish way and girls being brought up in a more girlish way. [23:04.160 --> 23:10.400] You come from somewhere, don't you? You don't just turn up as an app developer or something [23:10.400 --> 23:16.000] as an adult, you've come through something and when you're a little kid, you know, the things that [23:16.000 --> 23:22.000] you were, you know, I came through with four brothers and no sisters, that makes me a certain kind of [23:22.000 --> 23:27.520] woman. And I know I'm not like other women because of that, because I didn't have an older sister [23:27.520 --> 23:32.880] going, this is what you do with your hair and all that. And I think that we've all been through [23:32.880 --> 23:39.040] something like that. So do you think that sort of, I don't know how to phrase this, but you're a [23:39.040 --> 23:43.360] better woman and a stronger woman? I don't know, I think it's made me a bit, it has made me a bit [23:43.360 --> 23:51.840] different, I think. Well, I'm just sort of a less girly kind of, you know, always been a less girly, [23:51.840 --> 23:57.360] but I'm not particularly tomboyish. But, you know, back to men, you know, that I've also seen [23:57.360 --> 24:03.840] with four brothers, you see a lot of competition goes on between young boys. You know, it's just [24:03.920 --> 24:10.000] very natural thing. And I had a son who had nothing of that, still doesn't have anything of that. [24:10.800 --> 24:15.840] He was like a freak, you know, because all the other boys wanted to do competitive things. So [24:15.840 --> 24:22.400] I've seen that sort of thing. And I think, I don't know, you guys tell me if you think that's true, [24:22.400 --> 24:29.680] but I think one is brought up as a boy, you know. Do you think that that fundamentally is perhaps [24:29.760 --> 24:37.120] why men find it harder to express their feelings and share? I mean, certainly, you know, I, from my [24:37.120 --> 24:42.160] female friends, they're more happy to talk, you know, to each other. Yeah, women will emote with [24:42.160 --> 24:50.640] each other so, so quickly, barely knowing each other. They will tell it, they will share the birth [24:50.640 --> 24:55.920] stories, they will share the boyfriend stories, they will, you know, talk about absolutely everything. [24:56.560 --> 25:02.720] And I would include myself in that. It's just like a really natural thing to do. [25:02.720 --> 25:06.960] Yeah, definitely. I agree. I think it's much you try my son's six and we were like, you know, [25:06.960 --> 25:13.200] we're not going to point him towards things and, you know, it's dinosaurs, it's Minecraft, [25:13.200 --> 25:17.200] and it's, you know, Marvel. And I'm like, I don't even really know how this happened. [25:17.200 --> 25:20.720] There's pressures from other kids and they're, you know, like you say, it just keeps going. [25:20.800 --> 25:26.320] But I think, you know, like you said, you were saying with how you look at yourself as a person [25:26.880 --> 25:30.480] and like, you know, you can be open as a man, but as a man, we wouldn't talk to each other. [25:30.480 --> 25:34.800] We don't go out there. So I think this is why things like this are so great, [25:34.800 --> 25:40.160] because it's you're creating your community where you can open up because by being here, [25:40.160 --> 25:44.720] you're acknowledging that you're aware of issues and you can speak to people, but this is what, [25:44.720 --> 25:49.040] but it's a rarity. It's a rarity, you know, if you walk down the street or met someone, [25:49.040 --> 25:53.280] you're not going to open up to someone, you know, or your boss or your work colleague. [25:53.280 --> 25:56.640] You may be scared to. It's definitely getting better, I think, but, you know, [25:57.360 --> 26:02.240] when we talked earlier on, and you're explaining, you know, the root positive stuff that you're [26:02.240 --> 26:08.720] doing, is it because you've got a group of strangers in a room together that they're more open than if [26:08.720 --> 26:15.120] they were a bunch of mates in a room together? Yeah, I think so. I think especially someone's first [26:15.120 --> 26:18.640] time you see it, it's a bit like, you know, and you suddenly realize, well, I don't know these [26:18.640 --> 26:24.800] people, if I really want to, I don't need to see these people again, you know, and it's three [26:24.800 --> 26:30.640] hours of my life where I can have a chat find out a little bit about this person, realize [26:31.280 --> 26:36.400] we've all got something in common and just, you know, have a chilled environment where you're, [26:36.400 --> 26:41.040] you're not, you know, it's just you being you and it's happened so rarely where you just get a chance [26:41.040 --> 26:47.120] to just be you. I mean, I think that's sort of quite an interesting point that, you know, with your [26:47.120 --> 26:51.120] friends, especially, you know, their friends that you've had since university or college, [26:52.000 --> 26:58.640] you know, you're kind of live well, you know, it's almost like you've got a reputation from, [26:59.360 --> 27:04.800] you know, perhaps a very small part of your life and then you spend the next 20 years kind of trying [27:04.800 --> 27:10.320] to, you know, you feel like you've got to be that person. So, you know, when you meet up with your [27:10.320 --> 27:16.800] best mates, you don't necessarily talk about, you know, the stuff that's keeping you awake at night, [27:16.800 --> 27:20.480] you're still like, oh well, I've got to be, you know, the funny guy that, you know, everyone [27:20.480 --> 27:28.080] expects. So, you know, yeah, with strangers and, you know, again, it's sort of, it's some of the [27:28.080 --> 27:34.800] guys here, Gavin and Nathan, run talk group and hey, the team, you know, it's sort of, you know, [27:34.800 --> 27:40.480] it might be professional counseling, but how did you talk? Or it could be, you know, just a group [27:40.480 --> 27:46.400] of strangers. I had a conversation with Ali the other day where, you know, I was like, well, [27:46.960 --> 27:52.960] two weeks later, I realized that he would have been the perfect person to speak to about someone, [27:52.960 --> 27:58.960] about something. But, you know, it's like, I don't know, I'll talk to a counselor about it, [27:59.680 --> 28:04.480] you know, talk to other people, but I'm like, oh, I should have actually just phoned my friend. [28:05.120 --> 28:09.680] But then there's also that thing of like, oh well, you know, I know he's got a lot on, and you know, [28:09.680 --> 28:12.960] it's, sometimes you don't want to bother your friends. [28:13.600 --> 28:18.880] Definitely, definitely. Or, you know, your, it's like, well, if I tell them, they'll try and fix it, [28:18.880 --> 28:22.560] and you know, I don't want someone to fix it. I just want someone to listen. [28:23.360 --> 28:26.400] Do men have more pressure to fulfill a role, traditionally? [28:27.680 --> 28:31.600] Yeah, I'd say, I think, you know, we all have pressures, but yeah, I think men, [28:31.600 --> 28:36.640] we probably internalize ours more. You know, I think sometimes we won't admit the pressures we're [28:36.640 --> 28:39.200] under. I mean, being a breadwinner, I just want, [28:40.880 --> 28:45.280] all right. So, so in a job, we wouldn't go, you know, we have a mental health problem, right? [28:45.280 --> 28:52.160] Because if you saw a job, being a bread, right? Yeah. Do women not have that? I mean, [28:52.160 --> 28:57.840] do you think you're here representing? Yeah, I don't know. I, you know, I've been, I've been [28:57.840 --> 29:02.480] the person sitting in the editor's chair where people have come in and said, I think I'm, [29:03.360 --> 29:08.720] I need time off because I can't cope or, or a very, you know, the thing I didn't talk about, [29:08.720 --> 29:14.560] that people often see therapists about are like, you know, couples counseling and divorce and [29:14.560 --> 29:19.600] bereavement, those kind of things that happen in your life that are much more kind of general, [29:19.600 --> 29:26.880] I suppose, but they can be really hard to deal with. And I think you, you, I think people probably [29:26.880 --> 29:30.640] think that if they're talking to a woman boss, it's going to be easier to ask for that. [29:31.120 --> 29:36.000] But I think they could be wrong in that. They could, they could be the wrong assumption. [29:36.560 --> 29:41.920] I don't, I don't know, you know, I think, I know lots of women have, have, you know, like, [29:41.920 --> 29:46.640] I've at various times been, you know, the breadwinner. I do think in general, [29:46.640 --> 29:52.960] the massive women probably, yes, expect men to be early more than them and expect on some level [29:52.960 --> 29:58.160] to be, I'm not terribly comfortable saying looked after, but that's what I mean. You know, that, [29:58.240 --> 30:04.880] that's the kind of thing I mean, you know, and I suppose in spite of women earning more and more, [30:04.880 --> 30:10.880] there's still not up to what men are. And that's one thing. And they also tend to have what they are, [30:10.880 --> 30:15.280] are the ones having the babies and they tend to be the ones having the maternity leave, etc. [30:15.840 --> 30:21.120] You know, you can't really change it that much without a huge social change, [30:21.680 --> 30:27.440] without a really huge social change. But some countries, I think, have done that. They have got, [30:27.840 --> 30:33.680] you know, it's a much more, you know, level of playing for your between men and women. But I don't [30:33.680 --> 30:39.760] think this country is that, you know, I've got a granddaughter myself who's three and a half. [30:39.760 --> 30:46.320] And it's quite fascinating to me to see her kind of, you know, take on the world and, you know, [30:46.320 --> 30:51.360] she wants to go to the Science Museum. You can't take it at the VNA to see the fashion department. [30:51.920 --> 30:56.880] Not interested. She wants to see the rockets and the moon. And it's fantastic. You know, [30:58.000 --> 31:03.920] even with the sun, I didn't have anyone who wanted to do that. So, you know, things do change this, [31:03.920 --> 31:08.960] this stuff working on you all the time. Isn't that, isn't that part of the [31:08.960 --> 31:14.960] some of the societal issues right now, that there is a stigma that you have to be left, [31:15.440 --> 31:20.320] somewhere or the other way. As long as it's a loving, caring relationship family, [31:21.920 --> 31:27.200] the suns and the waters are happy, et cetera. We're creating this stigma that you have to be [31:27.760 --> 31:34.800] black, white, gay, straight, female, female, female, like pink things, like rockets and stuff. And [31:34.800 --> 31:40.960] I think the basis of happiness, et cetera, the foundation of what you are as a human [31:41.040 --> 31:46.480] is being forgotten about. And we're looking at the material things that are the drivers [31:46.480 --> 31:51.600] of our relationships rather than the material basics of what we are as human beings, [31:51.600 --> 31:56.720] which is should be happy first. And I think it is right if you like these things or you do these [31:56.720 --> 32:02.400] things or you create these things. And we're just putting this pressure of you should be there. So [32:02.400 --> 32:07.520] you need to be there. Well, I think as you get older, you probably think yes, it should be like that. But [32:08.160 --> 32:15.360] talk to a kind of generation said that I like I share my homework, then you think, oh my God, [32:15.360 --> 32:22.400] it's just like she wants to throw everything out. She wants it completely. Everything has got to [32:22.400 --> 32:30.080] be kind of gender fluid. I mean, it's kind of really exciting. But on another level, it's kind of [32:30.080 --> 32:36.800] people do worry that it leads to things that they're not comfortable with. And where does that leave [32:36.800 --> 32:43.040] men? I don't know. Part of me feels like, you know, well, you're all in control. [32:43.040 --> 32:49.520] So do you think it's a male role nowadays? I mean, I've got two daughters who are in their 20s. My [32:49.520 --> 32:56.880] oldest one is 23, the youngest one is 20. I mean, I watch my daughters now 23. I love my daughters, [32:56.880 --> 33:01.680] but they chastise their boyfriends. And I watched them put them down. And I'm kind of like, well, [33:01.680 --> 33:05.120] what is the male role now out there? What is the male role? Because no disrespect, [33:05.120 --> 33:09.040] well, women don't need men to have children anymore. And I kind of try and educate my children [33:09.040 --> 33:13.200] that the age they are. And I say to them, look, you can't keep putting men down because what do you [33:13.200 --> 33:17.520] want? What do you want from eventually putting them down? And I think a lot of the mental health [33:17.520 --> 33:21.840] thing that's going on nowadays, and it's not a sexist thing, I just keep, you know, for having [33:21.840 --> 33:27.520] two daughters and growing up in a family where I had two sisters, I've always been a male role, [33:27.520 --> 33:31.840] my dad would tell me on six things. I kind of, I've always been the sort of man in a family as [33:31.840 --> 33:36.160] it was, well, I lived at home still with my mum. And I've always had this, what is the role [33:36.160 --> 33:42.240] of a man nowadays? It's starting to get a little bit undefined where a man's supposed to be in life. [33:42.240 --> 33:46.080] You know, the man was always the breadwinner. You know, he's supposed to be the main wage owner. [33:46.080 --> 33:50.320] He's the one that's supposed to, you know, provide. And I'm not knocking my daughters, [33:50.320 --> 33:53.760] and any more than I'm not my wife, because she does it as well. You know, I kind of, [33:53.760 --> 33:59.200] it must be very hard for a guy who's growing up in this day and age to be able to know what their [33:59.200 --> 34:04.320] role is in the future. I just tip you very briefly and listen to someone with a therapeutic [34:04.320 --> 34:10.800] background, so I started this way. But you sound confused, I'm confused too. It's very confusing. [34:10.800 --> 34:15.360] Yeah, that's the one thing old, just as a, just as a catcher, it's very confusing. I'm not saying [34:15.360 --> 34:20.400] that's why the long, good or bad, it's very confusing. So here you're on that. I thought the 23, [34:20.960 --> 34:28.640] 21, the 29th door. So isn't that where the Andrew Tate thing comes from, the confusion of young men? [34:28.640 --> 34:33.360] Well, I mean, I mean, you can put it in his body. I mean, the most thing that's going to happen in [34:33.360 --> 34:39.520] the last 100 years is the peel, right? It completely changed who we are. What are you doing? [34:39.520 --> 34:42.800] Forgive me, forgive me, forgive me. Women are in there for a moment. And I think we're still [34:42.800 --> 34:48.160] caught up with that. I think they're still playing out. Things play out very, very, very, very slowly. [34:48.960 --> 34:53.920] I mean, I think that's the, actually the root of it. There's loads of other factors. Clearly, [34:53.920 --> 34:58.000] there's loads of other factors. But that's the main bit. Absolutely. Yeah, it's huge thing. [34:58.400 --> 35:05.440] The moment is, I've got a single parent ourselves with a mum, and we sport up by women. So I'm a [35:05.440 --> 35:14.480] massive fan of them. I've got a point about my two forms, but the point of the moment, you know, [35:14.480 --> 35:19.680] you talk about dealing with pressure on men. I think there's the same amount of pressure on both. [35:19.680 --> 35:24.480] I think it's fucking hard to be a human being to deal with everything that's going on. I'm sorry if [35:24.560 --> 35:26.480] that gets estimated. [35:26.480 --> 35:31.440] It's really hard. And the last thing, the last thing, and then I'll shut up because I can go on. [35:31.440 --> 35:35.360] So I'm going to talk to all about what we need to be happy. I'm not sure about it. I don't buy it. [35:35.360 --> 35:39.280] I think if you can be happy more than half the time, you are happy in the result. [35:40.000 --> 35:45.360] I think the rest of it is really difficult. People, when do you get ill? And forgive me, [35:45.360 --> 35:50.240] you've got some really tough stuff in life too. People die. Most of the people you love pass on. [35:51.120 --> 35:58.560] People leave. Shit happens constantly. And in the middle of that, I think there is joy and [35:58.560 --> 36:03.360] there's amazingness and there's love and there's intimacy and there's all that. But it's the idea, [36:03.360 --> 36:07.920] you know, I think we've been fooled. There's some sort of fooling going in. Why are you not happy [36:07.920 --> 36:14.240] with the time? I just don't get it. Do you think expectations, for whatever reason, the world that [36:14.240 --> 36:22.000] we live in now and the accessibility of the internet and social media and you open Facebook [36:22.000 --> 36:26.000] and there's always somebody living a better life than you? Do you think those expectations are [36:27.120 --> 36:33.040] the key issue here? Everyone's upbringing is different. And that's going to shape your view [36:33.920 --> 36:39.680] on life, regardless of when talking about gender. I was going to say, I think that is that [36:39.680 --> 36:43.520] pressure of like, what's the role? You know, what is that role? But that role comes from [36:43.520 --> 36:49.760] the past as well. And it's an opportunity to, you know, it's a pressure from the past of how [36:49.760 --> 36:54.240] the men's role was and now there's a bigger opportunity to go, you know, with my son and going, [36:54.240 --> 36:58.400] well, you know, my mum always cooked in the kitchen when I was growing up, you know, because [36:58.400 --> 37:02.800] the women's role was to do the cooking now, you know, I do all the cooking. So, you know, [37:02.800 --> 37:08.560] that's once these small little micro changes and just doing that, you know, I pick me and my wife, [37:09.040 --> 37:13.040] she's got, she works in Brighton that I work in Aaron Dawn. It's like, well, I'll do pick up half [37:13.040 --> 37:17.120] the time and I'll do drop up half the time. We share that role. There's a lot more sharing of [37:17.120 --> 37:21.840] childcare than there ever was. My wife's role is, you know, equally as important as mine, [37:21.840 --> 37:26.880] you know, and I think that role for my son, like his role is to find his way through life and [37:26.880 --> 37:33.040] find happiness. And that is the role. There's nothing else really matters. You know, find someone [37:33.040 --> 37:38.560] hopefully he can love, find someone, he can support him. And you know, I think that is ideally, [37:39.120 --> 37:44.320] that's all the pressures there are in life is finding happiness. That's bloody hard enough as it is, [37:44.320 --> 37:48.240] you know, with everything that's going on and everything that's got to come in this world. [37:48.240 --> 37:53.360] I think the sort of the pressures of what is a man, what is a woman, is becoming blurred and [37:53.360 --> 37:58.000] potentially that, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but it is what's happened. [37:58.000 --> 38:02.080] Yeah, everywhere you look, you're pretty much being told what you're doing is wrong. [38:02.080 --> 38:07.760] So, you know, it's like, well, if you're a man, you're not being caring enough for, you know, [38:07.760 --> 38:12.320] feminine enough, or you're not being masculine enough, or, you know, [38:13.120 --> 38:18.640] fit enough, gym fit enough, you know, everywhere you look, you know, you're basically getting [38:18.640 --> 38:24.480] someone telling you that you're doing the wrong thing. And the thing is going back to, you know, [38:24.560 --> 38:32.080] coming our audience member made. Being a young man in your 20s is a difficult time anyway, [38:32.080 --> 38:38.960] but I think, you know, growing up in today's society, yeah, it is, you know, it is more tricky. [38:38.960 --> 38:44.960] I mean, when you sort of said about sort of your daughters putting their partners down, [38:44.960 --> 38:49.440] yeah, what exactly do you mean by that? I mean, I mean, I kind of feel like I've been [38:50.000 --> 38:53.840] a little bit misogynistic in any taste, in any dimension, but, you know, I don't think I'm [38:53.840 --> 38:59.040] on the same level as that. My audience is quite straight, well, I'm like 20 and 23, you know, [38:59.040 --> 39:04.240] they're 20 and 23, and I just, and I try to tell them that, you know, because don't get me wrong, [39:04.240 --> 39:10.400] I mean, this kind of relationship in my life, I've been with my wife, what, 27 years, I've been [39:10.400 --> 39:14.400] married and I've been with her for 30 years, and there are times when my wife does it to me, [39:14.400 --> 39:17.360] and when you're feeding down the last thing you need, especially when I was sort of like, [39:17.440 --> 39:21.440] what happened with my mum and everything else, and when you are in a situation where you're [39:21.440 --> 39:26.320] feeling vulnerable, that's kind of where you need support, so I kind of try to tell my daughters [39:26.320 --> 39:30.560] that, look, you know, if her boyfriend or anything is feeding a little bit vulnerable, the last thing [39:30.560 --> 39:34.960] she needs to be told actually is that he's not doing anything right, you know, I want to be told, [39:34.960 --> 39:38.560] no one wants to be told that they're doing everything wrong all the time. I don't know whether my [39:38.560 --> 39:43.120] daughters, I mean, look, I'm not, I'm not putting up on set, I'm a pretty good fire, [39:43.440 --> 39:47.040] trying to sort of fight things all the time, I've had to fight a lot of things, trust me, [39:47.040 --> 39:50.560] the last two, two years, I'm still trying to fight the NHS, but there is more on my mum [39:50.560 --> 39:55.520] passed away, so I'm kind of in a situation where I could try to, so, and when my daughter [39:55.520 --> 39:58.640] stands there and she puts her boyfriend down, I'm standing there saying like, you know, [39:59.840 --> 40:04.400] he needs, you need to work as a team, don't, don't, don't try, because, because what happens is, [40:04.400 --> 40:07.600] what, what do you want from the end goal, do you want to make him someone that's [40:07.600 --> 40:11.360] submissive to a point where he, you know, when we're sitting here now, and we're talking about [40:11.360 --> 40:15.600] mental health, you know, you've got, there's a fine line of how you deal with boys, you, [40:15.600 --> 40:19.920] you know, you're young, you're 23, you've got to learn how to deal with men, and all right, [40:19.920 --> 40:24.480] we could stand there another role that a father or anything else, I think it's my role, because, [40:24.480 --> 40:27.920] you know, you see a lot more of this stuff happening nowadays, I mean, you see that pop [40:27.920 --> 40:31.440] stars, it's a lot more prevalent now, whether that was the case in the past and we didn't hear [40:31.440 --> 40:35.440] about it because social media is so right, you know, I mean, they don't even say a lot of the time [40:35.440 --> 40:39.840] now when a celebrity dies, how they died, and the fact that they took in the tape in their own eye, [40:39.840 --> 40:44.320] and I think we concentrate very much now on mental health, and it isn't an important thing, [40:44.320 --> 40:50.640] and I think it needs to be kind of ingratiated to maybe my daughters, that when I see them doing it, [40:50.640 --> 40:55.520] and I can see possibly in the future of how it's affected, because it affects me even now at 51, [40:55.520 --> 40:59.680] you know, no one wants to be put down, you're trying, I always say to my wife, and I've said, [40:59.680 --> 41:04.480] this a minute, I'm trying to do the best I can, and when you're being told sometimes that's not [41:04.560 --> 41:09.840] good enough, where's that going to go, it's not going to go up, it's going to kind of go down, [41:09.840 --> 41:14.560] you know, so I kind of, you know, I mean, and the one thing I would say I'm pretty good at is [41:14.560 --> 41:20.240] I think I'm fairly articulate, all right, I've had a couple of beers, but I think I can kind of relate [41:20.240 --> 41:25.040] to my wife, so, I mean, I obviously, and now, and I've never had counseling, I am a centre beaten [41:25.040 --> 41:28.960] engineer, and I tell all my customers and my problems, when my mum passes, wait, there wasn't [41:28.960 --> 41:33.120] anyone I can see, so I kind of offload, someone always said to me, you know, you need a therapist, [41:33.120 --> 41:38.960] I don't need one because I tell everybody, he's a builder, I've quite my eyes out in front of me, [41:38.960 --> 41:43.280] do you know what I mean, so I kind of, I've kind of had this been, I think, like, it's one of those [41:43.280 --> 41:48.560] things that there is no, there's no plan, there's no answer to everything, and I think you've just [41:48.560 --> 41:54.000] got to, you know, not to be too philosophical, but I see here and I, and so when my daughters [41:54.000 --> 41:58.000] are putting someone down, like their boyfriends, and I, if he doesn't need telling them not, [41:58.000 --> 42:02.240] but telling them when he needs telling them, rather than constantly telling them he's doing something wrong. [42:03.680 --> 42:09.520] This episode will continue in the second part next week, so we hope you join us again then. [42:13.440 --> 42:18.320] Thanks for listening to this week's episode. Feel free to reach out to Folger or David via our [42:18.320 --> 42:26.080] website, www.manupdown.com, or podcast at manupdown.com, with any feedback or to let us know what [42:26.080 --> 42:34.400] topics you'd like us to cover in the future. Hear you again soon. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe.sonicengage.com/releases/20240210005325' directory