From self hate to self mastery

[00:00:05] Welcome to the Man Up, Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:19] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com.

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:30] So welcome to another episode of Man Up, Man Down.

[00:00:38] We're already all in a good mood here for some nice free talk.

[00:00:41] So we welcome Katrina Collier.

[00:00:44] I hope it's pronounced correctly. I should have probably asked.

[00:00:47] No, not at all.

[00:00:48] Okay.

[00:00:51] You made it sound like a beautiful choker as opposed to Collier.

[00:00:55] Yeah.

[00:00:56] So Katrina is best known as an author, speaker and facilitator in the world of recruitment and talent acquisition.

[00:01:03] But she's also a victor over narcissistic emotional and physical child abuse and proves that you can heal complex PTSD.

[00:01:12] So she fell into healing at 40 and recently wrote her memoir, The Damage of Words, detailing her 12 year journey from self hate to self mastery in the hopes of encouraging others to actively seek help.

[00:01:23] So that's a short intro, but I think there's a lot more behind it.

[00:01:27] So Katrina, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:31] Considering how old I am, there's a lot to say.

[00:01:34] Another birthday coming up.

[00:01:36] It's like, oh, God, how'd that happen?

[00:01:38] Thank you so much for coming.

[00:01:39] Yeah.

[00:01:40] Oh, yeah.

[00:01:41] Not.

[00:01:44] It's actually weird.

[00:01:45] I wish they'd talk more about how deceptive getting older is.

[00:01:49] Like the number's high, but you feel young.

[00:01:52] And I don't think they talk about that enough because there's so much ageism.

[00:01:55] But anyway, so yes, I'm having a weird change of direction.

[00:01:59] So I have had the last few decades I have worked in and around the recruitment profession.

[00:02:05] And it was during that time that I set up my own business and was kind of at a crossroads of what do I want to do with my life?

[00:02:12] And I went to a woman called Michelle Zellie to talk about my career.

[00:02:17] And she just went, ah, just hang on a minute.

[00:02:20] Let's go back over here.

[00:02:21] And she started undoing my childhood trauma, which I had worked out was childhood trauma, but I didn't think to do anything about it.

[00:02:31] And I just went, well, this is just how I am.

[00:02:34] And I didn't even, I knew I didn't like who I was and I was unhappy and insecure and all and prickly, so prickly, so defensive.

[00:02:42] But I didn't actually think to do anything.

[00:02:45] So, so much of the motivation behind the memoir is to get people to proactively take a step.

[00:02:53] Ring someone, do something, read a book, do a meditation, you know, put your hand in your pocket and just invest in yourself.

[00:03:02] Because I just sat there.

[00:03:03] And then once, of course, I started peeling the layers off the defensiveness and getting to the actual cool wound and my actual trauma was way smaller than I thought it was for starters.

[00:03:15] And once I started healing that and feeling so much better, it was like, wow, why did I wait?

[00:03:21] Why did I sit until I was 40?

[00:03:25] So I've written it out.

[00:03:26] I've, I've written it all out.

[00:03:28] I mean, I talk about my childhood basically in a chapter and a bit.

[00:03:32] And then the rest of it is everything I have thrown at healing, which has been the weird, the wacky and the wonderful.

[00:03:37] So this life, past lives, generational trauma, DNA, and then I've opened spiritually.

[00:03:44] And nobody, you don't have to do all of that.

[00:03:46] But I thought I'll just write it all out because maybe somebody will go, well, that sounds interesting.

[00:03:51] Why don't I go try that?

[00:03:52] Or I hadn't thought of that.

[00:03:53] Or gosh, wow.

[00:03:54] And the change.

[00:03:55] And like, I feel people say to me now, I'm fearless.

[00:03:59] And I'm like, wow, I was nothing but riddled with fear for the first four decades.

[00:04:03] And it's just the difference is amazing.

[00:04:07] Well, welcome to the podcast.

[00:04:08] Thank you.

[00:04:09] Sorry.

[00:04:10] I just launched straight in.

[00:04:11] You can tell I had a podcast, can't you?

[00:04:13] That's great.

[00:04:14] That's all right.

[00:04:15] Well, yeah, you know, I hate it when I got a few minutes without talking.

[00:04:21] I mean, you sort of mentioned there about, you know, trauma.

[00:04:24] Let's talk about trauma.

[00:04:25] But I think there's almost a misconception that trauma has to be of a certain level to be trauma.

[00:04:35] Oh, yeah.

[00:04:35] Yeah.

[00:04:36] It's like, well, you know, my, I wasn't involved in a horrific car crash or, you know, it's not like my parents were murdered.

[00:04:46] So, or to become a superhero and fight crime in the city.

[00:04:49] You know, it can be, you know, it could be divorce.

[00:04:53] It can be, you know, I mean, it could almost be.

[00:04:57] Neglects.

[00:04:58] Yeah.

[00:04:59] Being heard.

[00:05:00] I'm trying to find the, sorry, because I happen to have this on my desktop.

[00:05:04] Have you seen the addiction tree?

[00:05:06] So it's basically a depiction of a tree with all the different addictions that people can have.

[00:05:11] And some of them people don't realize are addictions.

[00:05:12] So there's like thought addictions, which is like perfectionism, you know, or constantly repeating or constantly worrying, like all those kind of guilt.

[00:05:21] Um, there's also feeling addictions.

[00:05:24] So anger, rage, shame, all the ones you'd expect grief, um, people addictions, which I have a lot of addiction and there's others there and then activity.

[00:05:31] So they're the ones you think of, you know, people numbing, but underneath that, that the source of those are things like shame, denial, uh, feeling being victim or a victimizer.

[00:05:41] Oh, being disabled.

[00:05:42] It says there as well.

[00:05:43] Wow.

[00:05:43] Low self-worth.

[00:05:44] But these, like you just said, so they come from, they could come from physical sexual abuse, abandonment or neglect.

[00:05:51] Emotional or verbal abuse.

[00:05:53] Um, feeling rejected.

[00:05:55] Control or manipulation, which is a really subtle one.

[00:05:59] So you could be being controlled and not even realized.

[00:06:01] And therefore, you know, you can't go, oh, well, I wasn't hit or I wasn't abused, you know, and it's like, actually.

[00:06:10] Rigid rules.

[00:06:11] Like if your own parent is like really, really, really strict and you feel, which I certainly did.

[00:06:16] I was, there was this fear I'd be in trouble constantly.

[00:06:18] Not being able to speak up.

[00:06:20] So they say, don't talk.

[00:06:21] Um, and then don't trust, not being able to trust.

[00:06:24] So as you say, they're not necessarily obvious to people, but can be so, and it's this, the complex PTSD is the repetitive, the constant over and over and over.

[00:06:35] If your needs stop being met or, you know, just that constant fear.

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:39] And it's just, that's where it's slightly different to PTSD where it's one.

[00:06:42] It's usually a dramatic incident.

[00:06:45] Are you able to sort of tell us exactly what, you know, caused your trauma?

[00:06:50] Oh, oh yes.

[00:06:51] My mother, she's just delightful.

[00:06:55] Bless her.

[00:06:56] So, um, I mean, because of my own, my mom's own stuff, mommy is the way she is.

[00:07:00] And I understand why my mother is a narcissist.

[00:07:02] She's a covert narcissist, uh, which I personally think are the worst.

[00:07:07] You know, we, we kind of usually think narcissism is the overt, very obvious, like, you know, I need to be liked.

[00:07:12] It's more subtle and she would brew.

[00:07:15] So there's this, I can only describe it as brewing.

[00:07:19] So I could offend her and create within her own shame, ups, like upset her.

[00:07:26] And then she would lash out and the lashings out were just, I mean, extreme.

[00:07:32] So you just feel like you're on eggshells, but there was a specific incident that happened when I was three years old, which was the start of my trauma.

[00:07:39] When mom had picked me up from kindergarten and I didn't want to go home and I embarrassed her because I kicked off.

[00:07:47] You don't embarrass a narcissist ever.

[00:07:50] Like it's the worst thing you can do.

[00:07:52] And so she brewed on the drive home.

[00:07:54] And when she got home and she told me this when I was about 17 or 18, she said, I hit you so much.

[00:08:00] I could understand how a parent could kill a child.

[00:08:02] Now I have no recollection of this incident whatsoever.

[00:08:06] But when I started realizing I'd had trauma was I was at the chiropractor.

[00:08:12] She did some kinesiology on me and we realized I started being defensive, like from age three.

[00:08:18] I was like, oh, okay.

[00:08:19] And I'd lost touch with my sister because we're properly effed up dysfunctional.

[00:08:24] I'll try not to swear.

[00:08:26] You can swear.

[00:08:27] No, but Apple don't like it when you drop the F-bomb.

[00:08:29] So I'll try not to.

[00:08:32] But, yeah, we are properly, you know, we do dysfunctional really well.

[00:08:35] We'd get a gold medal in it.

[00:08:36] So I hadn't spoken to my sister in years and I got back in touch with her and said, did this thing happen?

[00:08:41] And she went, yeah, yeah, no, definitely.

[00:08:44] So sorry, is she an older sister?

[00:08:46] Yeah, my sister would have been 10.

[00:08:48] She's seven years older.

[00:08:49] And she said, yeah, yeah, no, this definitely happened.

[00:08:51] And so that was sort of the start, this instance where I started protecting and I started layering on layers and layers and layers of protection.

[00:08:59] But what was fascinating was finding out that it happened and then actually going, and where was my father?

[00:09:06] Because dad was there, but dad didn't protect.

[00:09:10] And I'd always kind of put him on a pedestal and demonized my mom as well.

[00:09:14] So that was sort of quite an interesting moment as well when I brought them into alignment.

[00:09:19] But over the years, it was a case of mum would do the stuff that would make us look like a wonderful family to the outside world.

[00:09:28] So we would have the big house, the private school education.

[00:09:32] Mum bought me a car when I was a teenager, all that sort of stuff.

[00:09:34] Everything was paid for.

[00:09:35] We had the monetary.

[00:09:37] I always say this, it's like a typical white middle-class household where, what, there's trauma going on behind?

[00:09:44] Yeah.

[00:09:45] Oh, yeah.

[00:09:45] Behind the doors to the outside world.

[00:09:48] But you've got a bed and you've got food.

[00:09:51] But I don't have love and I don't have, like I had love from dad, but I didn't have love from my mother.

[00:09:56] I wasn't, I didn't feel nurtured.

[00:09:58] It was nothing but constant criticism.

[00:10:01] You know, you're just not good enough.

[00:10:03] You're just not worthy.

[00:10:04] And it just, it never stopped.

[00:10:06] You don't finish anything.

[00:10:07] I'd get all these, it was, it was just constant.

[00:10:11] But then she would also do that thing where she's like, oh, but I told Auntie Carol that you're lovely.

[00:10:17] Okay.

[00:10:18] Hello.

[00:10:18] You know, I don't really care what you said to her.

[00:10:20] And there'd be that going on.

[00:10:24] But with the covert narcissist, it's the brewing as well.

[00:10:28] So there was always the fear.

[00:10:29] You know, I'd go home with my report card and I knew a beating would follow it because I knew it was never good enough.

[00:10:35] Or she'd be like, go and bend over the bed.

[00:10:37] And we'd be left for however long until she came in and gave us our spanking.

[00:10:41] Because your kids were spanked in the 70s.

[00:10:43] It was quite normal.

[00:10:45] But there's a difference between a hit in the moment and what she would do.

[00:10:50] Or she'd, I mean, another one I remember really clearly was I had annoyed her.

[00:10:54] This was late teens.

[00:10:55] I'd annoyed her in the morning.

[00:10:57] And she came up to me in the afternoon and just smacked me across the head from behind.

[00:11:00] I was watching TV.

[00:11:02] Don't even know what I'd done.

[00:11:04] And it was that.

[00:11:05] And we all, so all four children and my father were all on eggshells constantly.

[00:11:12] And we children didn't support each other either, which was also, I didn't realize until, actually I didn't realize that until I went on a trip for charity.

[00:11:23] And we were in the slums in Kampala and I was watching how the children behaved.

[00:11:27] And I was watching the bigger one taking care of the smaller and the older with the younger.

[00:11:31] And went, isn't that interesting?

[00:11:33] We didn't have that in our household.

[00:11:35] You know, and it was, it was like this realization, gosh, we hadn't supported each other.

[00:11:40] And then one of the other, because they were all HR professionals, coaches at this charity event.

[00:11:46] And she went, well, of course, you would have ganged up on your mother, wouldn't you?

[00:11:49] And I was like, oh my gosh, light bulbs, which is what healing is like.

[00:11:54] It's like these constant light bulbs.

[00:11:55] You suddenly have this realization and the veils drop and you start.

[00:11:59] Ah, okay.

[00:12:00] That's what it was.

[00:12:01] And now I need to heal it.

[00:12:03] So you're both looking at me like I'm with great sadness.

[00:12:07] Please don't.

[00:12:08] I'm fine.

[00:12:09] I've done the work.

[00:12:11] I'm just thinking, why wouldn't you support each other and gang up against your mother?

[00:12:14] Would that not be the logical thing to do?

[00:12:17] I don't know how she did it.

[00:12:19] I genuinely don't know how she did it.

[00:12:22] She probably bad mouthed us to each other.

[00:12:25] The thing I've been really clear about, and the reason I didn't want to talk so much about my trauma in my memoir was because I have massive gaps of memory.

[00:12:34] So there are different, and it's interesting.

[00:12:35] It depends where you fall in the family.

[00:12:37] You can all go through the same thing, and how you handle the trauma is differently.

[00:12:42] So I've forgotten.

[00:12:43] My sister feels absolutely nothing in the moment.

[00:12:46] So she could be on this call right now, and she would be working out in her head how to escape.

[00:12:52] My eldest brother is just angry.

[00:12:54] He's just angry and defensive.

[00:12:55] My full-blood brother, I don't know.

[00:12:56] I haven't spoken to him in like 25 years or something.

[00:12:59] I think it's hard for me to know, but I can only imagine, because she loves to play people off each other.

[00:13:06] And it's all because she's just riddled with insecurity and self-hate and generational trauma as well.

[00:13:14] What about your dad?

[00:13:16] Did he never get involved at all then?

[00:13:19] Dad was in a delusion to the end.

[00:13:23] I mean, my dad has some very interesting ideas on life.

[00:13:26] And to his very last breath, he was deluded about the whole thing.

[00:13:32] I'm sorry if you're not a believer, but I'm actually a clairaudient, so I can hear past souls.

[00:13:37] So I've actually spoken to dad since he's passed.

[00:13:39] And he said to me that mum started on him from the day they got married, literally from that day.

[00:13:46] And my, don't get me wrong, my father should have protected us.

[00:13:52] From that beating at three years of age, because mum actually admitted that she was out of control, dad should have protected us.

[00:13:59] He should have taken us out of that house or kicked her out, one or the other.

[00:14:03] So he did fail us.

[00:14:05] However, I do understand why he was the way he was.

[00:14:08] My father was born in 1929.

[00:14:10] His mum died in 1935.

[00:14:14] And his father lost everything and had to put him and his sister up for adoption.

[00:14:19] And the people that adopted him didn't want him.

[00:14:21] And he was massively beaten to the point that he actually unadopted himself at 15.

[00:14:28] And so it was, he, I think, and also because he went through such brutality,

[00:14:33] probably watching what we were going through was much more subtle.

[00:14:36] And so he wouldn't have really realised.

[00:14:39] And he didn't marry the woman he should have married, which was this woman he dated for seven years.

[00:14:43] And he didn't, he married mum instead.

[00:14:46] And he shouldn't have.

[00:14:47] And he would say, he would agree to that.

[00:14:49] You said your dad has passed.

[00:14:51] Is your mum still alive?

[00:14:52] She's somehow still alive and kicking.

[00:14:55] I mean, are you, are you, I mean, say are you just completely like,

[00:15:01] you're not in touch with anyone in your family?

[00:15:04] I'm in touch with my sister and my eldest brother.

[00:15:09] We, we message each other on LinkedIn, which I always find extremely peculiar.

[00:15:12] But that's, that's what we do, which is better than no contact.

[00:15:18] You know, we're all quite broken by it.

[00:15:20] And it's funny that so much of the motivation between writing the memoir is

[00:15:25] because my sister always says, and this will probably resonate with some of your listeners.

[00:15:29] I don't want to open Pandora's box.

[00:15:32] And I'm like, that's not how healing works.

[00:15:35] That is not how healing works.

[00:15:37] You do not open the lid on Pandora's box.

[00:15:40] You literally peel like layers of an onion.

[00:15:42] Like you start with really little stuff and you get, you keep going and you keep going.

[00:15:47] And then you find out that thing is like the size of a pillbox,

[00:15:50] not this enormous monstrosity of a trunk you think it is.

[00:15:54] Um, so I wanted to demystify and then just, again, that motivation, like, please don't leave.

[00:16:02] You know, the trauma is damaging.

[00:16:04] So dad suppressed his trauma.

[00:16:06] And it was fascinating while I was writing and like understanding how, what our bodies do

[00:16:11] with suppressed, in his case, anger.

[00:16:13] He ended up with heart disease.

[00:16:15] That's what happens when you suppress anger.

[00:16:17] And I read it and went, that's what dad got.

[00:16:19] You know, he was on Valium suppressing the anger.

[00:16:24] And you're just like, wow, don't do that people.

[00:16:26] You can't, you not now, not now.

[00:16:28] We have so much help.

[00:16:29] There's no need.

[00:16:31] Hi folks.

[00:16:32] It's Volker here.

[00:16:34] I hope you enjoy this week's episode.

[00:16:36] As you know, I coach executives, whether that is for leadership skills or for sales coaching

[00:16:41] or working as a therapist, there are a few ways I can help you to get unstuck, improve

[00:16:48] your work-life balance and become a better version of yourself.

[00:16:51] So you will be more productive and have more time for your family.

[00:16:56] Whatever it is you want to achieve, you can join my client list of people from General

[00:17:01] Electric, DHL or Pepsi.

[00:17:05] Book a free exploratory call via my website, www.obnat.us.

[00:17:12] That's O-B-N-A-T dot U-S.

[00:17:15] Now back to the show.

[00:17:19] You guys look shocked.

[00:17:20] Sorry.

[00:17:21] No, no, no.

[00:17:22] I'm not talking about things like this is normal.

[00:17:25] I'm trying to think where we take it because I think there's several elements in here,

[00:17:30] right?

[00:17:31] And I think one interesting one, given we talk about midlife.

[00:17:36] If I say, I don't know if the question is the right question to ask, but if I say, why

[00:17:43] did you wait 40 years?

[00:17:45] Or maybe to rephrase it, why do you think it came out when you turned 40?

[00:17:53] Might be the better way of asking.

[00:17:54] There is that massive question of once I actually finally worked out it was abuse, I didn't

[00:18:00] do anything.

[00:18:00] Because we're narcissists, right?

[00:18:02] So the gaslight.

[00:18:03] So there's that crazy making of everything that you do.

[00:18:05] Oh, you made that up.

[00:18:06] Like for example, when I got engaged to, sorry, I've been engaged twice, married once.

[00:18:12] It's a bit confusing when you say it.

[00:18:14] But the first time I got engaged, I showed mum the ring and she did the whole, yeah,

[00:18:17] yeah, great.

[00:18:18] Wow, wow, wow.

[00:18:19] And then she called me and she said that she felt nauseous at the hypocrisy because we

[00:18:25] were living together.

[00:18:26] My non-religious mother.

[00:18:28] And like, apparently I made that up.

[00:18:30] So she would say stuff like that that would absolutely devastate me.

[00:18:33] I curled up in the fetal position on the floor and sobbed because I just couldn't believe

[00:18:37] that she would destroy this amazing happy moment for me.

[00:18:40] And I made that up.

[00:18:42] So that's, so because of that, it took me a really long time to believe, you know, my body

[00:18:47] had to show it.

[00:18:48] I had to, to see there was something again that happened on that charity trip that made me

[00:18:52] understand it was actual trauma.

[00:18:55] But as I said, I sat there and didn't do anything.

[00:18:59] And I don't know why.

[00:19:01] And I think it was just almost divine timing universe, whatever, just luck that at 40, when

[00:19:08] I think I was ready to do the self-work because it takes discipline.

[00:19:14] You know, you've got to kind of go, oh, there I am.

[00:19:17] I'm having that thought over and over again.

[00:19:18] Let's stop that.

[00:19:20] Let's heal that.

[00:19:21] You know, that you've got to be brave enough to, to even talk about some of the stuff that's

[00:19:27] not so deep.

[00:19:28] It's, it, you know, it does take some courage.

[00:19:32] And I just don't know that I was ready until I was 40, but also really we haven't been

[00:19:38] talking much about this stuff, have we?

[00:19:40] Could you imagine your podcast existing 20 years ago?

[00:19:44] It's like, it's, it's losing.

[00:19:49] I mean, I go, I go back.

[00:19:50] One of my closest friends at school, her sister had Down syndrome.

[00:19:55] We didn't know she existed until we all turned 18.

[00:19:59] That was the eighties, right?

[00:20:01] So you think about, gosh, you know, how the, the change, the stigma, the, the, the things

[00:20:07] that were just 50, 60 years ago, you just, you didn't do.

[00:20:11] And now it's like, whatever, who cares?

[00:20:13] You've got, you didn't.

[00:20:14] So I think that we are, maybe that's why.

[00:20:17] I don't know.

[00:20:19] I, I, but I, I don't know why 40, but thank God.

[00:20:23] So what, um, what was the sort of the first step that you took to healing?

[00:20:29] And I mean, was that sort of the, the internal phrase you used or was it, I need to speak

[00:20:38] to someone about this?

[00:20:41] Yeah, no.

[00:20:41] Well, like I said, it was, I, I went to Michelle about my career and she, and then she just started

[00:20:47] going like, hang on, hang on.

[00:20:49] But literally I was talking to her about walking my dog through Blackheath village and how I

[00:20:53] get irritated by the fact people wouldn't work, walk around me.

[00:20:57] And I still get annoyed by that, by the way.

[00:20:59] I just think if you're one, but anyway, another story.

[00:21:03] Just like, you know, it's really hard to move a dog, much easier to move your push chair

[00:21:08] with one finger.

[00:21:09] But anyway, that's another story.

[00:21:10] Anyway, but it was, it went from there, but what she would do.

[00:21:14] And I think another reason I want to talk about this, and I will answer your question is

[00:21:18] inner child work.

[00:21:21] If you have had any form of trauma or neglect or whatever from childhood, inner child work's

[00:21:28] the key and not enough therapists use it.

[00:21:32] So inner child work was first and foremost finding, like you can't, or you don't really

[00:21:39] do it in a, you can do it in a meditation, but we didn't.

[00:21:41] There's like, where was my inner child?

[00:21:42] I mean, she wasn't even in me.

[00:21:45] And then it's, will your inner child talk to you?

[00:21:49] Like, cause that could be, she's been so, is she for me, he for you, obviously, but so

[00:21:55] neglected that she doesn't want to talk because suddenly you're appearing and going, hi, this

[00:22:00] is functional adult.

[00:22:00] I'm here.

[00:22:01] I'm going to protect you.

[00:22:02] You know, that sort of a thing.

[00:22:04] So we got to that point where I would spend a lot of time just talking to my inner child.

[00:22:10] I'd hold a cushion to kind of help me connect and just give myself the comfort and the love

[00:22:17] that I didn't get.

[00:22:18] And then in sessions, what we would do would be amazing for me.

[00:22:22] Cause one of my big things is I, I never felt like I was heard.

[00:22:27] If I dared to speak up, I wasn't heard.

[00:22:30] So it was like, I couldn't speak up or if I did, I wasn't heard.

[00:22:33] And there was this big thing all the way through my childhood.

[00:22:37] So using my, bringing in my inner child and Michelle would say, okay, I want you to pretend

[00:22:44] that your mum is in a seat opposite you.

[00:22:47] And so I would get to say all stuff and it would either be my inner child or functional

[00:22:54] adult who's talking to you now, or sometimes that wonderful inner teen that comes out when

[00:23:00] your inner child is scared and functional adult has vacated.

[00:23:03] And there's a lot of people walking around in permanent inner teen.

[00:23:06] And that was always fun.

[00:23:08] There was only a few sessions when inner teen got to let rip, but wow.

[00:23:12] And it was just letting go, like all of the stuff I couldn't say.

[00:23:17] And then I would be bouncing around the room because the energy just comes out of you.

[00:23:22] Um, and just, and, and a lot of kids who've grown up in trauma, they, they become empath,

[00:23:26] they become hypervigilant.

[00:23:28] So they take on all the energy because they don't know how to protect themselves.

[00:23:31] And so it was just like, so that to me was the biggest and best thing that I did.

[00:23:39] And that was the inner child work was the quickest way to get me from self-hatred to actually even,

[00:23:46] I mean, even the thought when I was so full of self-hate of even liking myself was so hard,

[00:23:51] but doing that work got me through that and self-love.

[00:23:54] And that to me, I get quite shocked when I hear that people go to therapy for five to 10 years

[00:24:02] and they haven't done inner child work.

[00:24:04] It's a bit of a game changer.

[00:24:07] It looks on your faces like,

[00:24:09] I'm talking too fast or I'm shocking you with stuff.

[00:24:12] No, I don't know.

[00:24:14] I'm waiting for David to say something.

[00:24:17] No, inner child work is great.

[00:24:18] David was being kicked by a bus.

[00:24:20] I mean, inner child work, as you say, right?

[00:24:22] It's, I mean, it's, you know, I keep quoting it because my, my tutor keeps quoting it,

[00:24:29] but, um, you know, the poem by Larkin, um, you know, they fuck you up, you're mum and dad.

[00:24:34] They don't mean to, but they do.

[00:24:36] Right.

[00:24:36] And it's very true.

[00:24:37] Right.

[00:24:37] A lot of our problems we have, you know, um, stem from our childhood, right?

[00:24:43] And there isn't in the child.

[00:24:46] Um, so, and, and the way you described it sitting in the chairs, I think that's my next week.

[00:24:50] And that's Gestalt therapy, isn't it?

[00:24:52] Where you, um, sit, sit, sit, sit opposite.

[00:24:55] So, so.

[00:24:55] Yeah.

[00:24:55] That was obviously not, you can't, you can't always do that with them.

[00:25:00] So like, I can't have this conversation with mum.

[00:25:02] I probably could have had it with my father, but by being able to bring them in in a safe

[00:25:07] environment and also where you've got your therapist there with you.

[00:25:10] I mean, Michelle's really a coach to be fair.

[00:25:13] And who will, who can protect you energetically as well.

[00:25:17] So I think that's quite good where they can, she can go, oh, hang on, you've gone too far.

[00:25:23] And just so you feel safe.

[00:25:25] I mean, it's a lot, it's a lot of parts work in there as well.

[00:25:27] Since we talk about healing now, um, uh, just listen to, um, Schwarz this morning on a podcast

[00:25:33] about, uh, you know, internal family systems, which I always got confused originally with, um,

[00:25:38] family constellation, which is Hellinger, which I, um, voted thesis on many years ago,

[00:25:42] um, which is also very interesting to, to, to look at how you inherited things without

[00:25:48] physically inheriting things and great, great stuff.

[00:25:51] I've done, um, I mean, just actually I'll answer in two parts.

[00:25:56] So my mother is the way my mother is from her own upbringing.

[00:25:59] Yeah.

[00:26:00] Um, my grandfather didn't believe that his son was his son.

[00:26:05] So her brother was his brother, her, his son, her brother was his son.

[00:26:09] I'm sure I can say that way better than I am.

[00:26:11] But anyway, if you looked at the two of them together, totally was, but in denial, right?

[00:26:16] So there was, so my mom was actually put on a pedestal and my uncle was beaten.

[00:26:22] So it was, that was the start of the narcissism.

[00:26:25] Then my mother married her first husband.

[00:26:28] And when my eldest brother and sister were three and one respectively, he killed himself.

[00:26:34] Then five years later, after dating my dad and then my dad deciding it wasn't right and

[00:26:39] leaving for a year, then he came back to be a father to the children.

[00:26:42] Not because he loved mom, he proposed and they got married.

[00:26:47] And she said, I had a shiver of fear go through me when he proposed.

[00:26:50] And you're like, and you're still marrying him?

[00:26:52] Thank God.

[00:26:52] Cause I wouldn't be here and I'm fabulous.

[00:26:53] But you're like, okay.

[00:26:57] So you've kind of got all of that.

[00:26:59] So you've got this instability.

[00:27:00] And then if I go back again, I know why my grandfather was the way my grandfather was.

[00:27:04] His dad was an alcoholic dentist, violent man, generation, generation.

[00:27:10] But then I've done stuff that's like really bizarre.

[00:27:13] I was doing a meditation around money and they said, right, I want you to create, and I've

[00:27:18] written this in, I want you to have a basket.

[00:27:21] And in the basket, I want you, you want to get your DNA, anyone in your DNA line to put

[00:27:27] into the basket, anything that's like poverty related.

[00:27:31] And I saw my grandfather put my dad and his sister in the basket.

[00:27:37] And it was like, whoa.

[00:27:39] And then you could heal that.

[00:27:40] Like I'm healing the lines in the DNA.

[00:27:42] And it just sounds so weird, but every time I felt lighter and better.

[00:27:47] And it's like this, I'm sure there'll be other stuff bubble up even still, even all these

[00:27:53] years later.

[00:27:54] So I find it interesting.

[00:27:56] Man Up, Man Down is sponsored by Well Doing.

[00:27:59] As someone who has seen a counsellor for a number of years, I think their approach is

[00:28:02] great.

[00:28:03] They want you to find the mental health professional who is right for you.

[00:28:06] You can filter your search to highlight therapists with expertise where you need it, or you can

[00:28:11] pay to use their personalised matching service.

[00:28:14] The people who run Well Doing are experts in mental wellbeing, and they also have loads

[00:28:18] of posts and interviews to keep your mental health in good shape.

[00:28:21] Take a look at welldoing.org.

[00:28:25] For me, you've sort of said that you think you could have had this conversation with your

[00:28:30] dad, but you can't have it with your mum.

[00:28:34] Yeah, no.

[00:28:35] I mean, I've got a few questions around that.

[00:28:38] Yeah.

[00:28:38] Is that because you're scared of her or because you love her and you wouldn't want to hurt

[00:28:45] her, you know, in terms of...

[00:28:47] Option three.

[00:28:51] Well, so yeah, so why haven't you sort of told her?

[00:28:57] Can I just say, this is one for anybody who's ever said to somebody else, but she's your mum,

[00:29:03] but she's or he's your dad.

[00:29:05] Like, sometimes for your mental health stroke sanity, you need to stay out of the destruction

[00:29:12] path.

[00:29:13] My mother is a destruction path.

[00:29:16] My mother does not have one nice thing to say about me.

[00:29:20] And this was funny.

[00:29:23] Not funny for my sister and my mother, but funny.

[00:29:27] When my dad died, mum sent me an email and said, there are some possessions here.

[00:29:31] Actually, this is his wedding ring, which I'm wearing my thumb, that I'd like to give you.

[00:29:38] And I wrote back and said, thank you.

[00:29:40] Could you please pass them to my sister and I shall collect them the next time I'm home.

[00:29:44] I actually knew I was going to be home in a few months, but she didn't know that.

[00:29:49] And that was, she didn't like that.

[00:29:52] So she shut back.

[00:29:53] No, they shall stay here.

[00:29:55] You will collect them much as I don't want to see you.

[00:29:58] So I'm like, okay, so I need to collect them, but you don't want to see me.

[00:30:01] So when I was home, my mother ended up in a complete state of utter stress, as did my sister.

[00:30:07] I didn't because of course I've done 12 years of healing to go and collect these possessions,

[00:30:12] to spend 20 minutes just collecting this stuff and going.

[00:30:15] Because she wanted to have that last control over me, but also be really nasty and like,

[00:30:20] go, you don't mean anything to me.

[00:30:22] I don't want to see you.

[00:30:23] And it was just like, I was just reading it going, this is hilarious.

[00:30:28] She, she is so, I mean, she's just fucked up.

[00:30:32] She's just, I mean, she's so deluded and she's so in misery.

[00:30:38] And my poor sister has to deal with her because of, she's the only one around that can, and

[00:30:43] all the health BS that goes on.

[00:30:45] And, and it's just, yeah, it's hard.

[00:30:49] She's, it, the, the, it never stops.

[00:30:52] The criticism does not stop and it's, it's unjustified as well.

[00:30:59] And it's funny because there's a feeling of freedom that comes when you get to the point

[00:31:03] you go, I don't need her.

[00:31:05] I don't need her because for many, many years I wanted her approval.

[00:31:08] I was codependent.

[00:31:10] I couldn't get it.

[00:31:11] And it was like, and then I got to this point, I didn't, I didn't need it.

[00:31:14] I didn't, I just don't care.

[00:31:16] And, but I have to stay out of her path of destruction.

[00:31:19] So it's more of that.

[00:31:21] I mean, yeah.

[00:31:22] When I saw it because you love her, I guess that's probably what I was alluding to though

[00:31:27] in terms of, yeah, you still wanted that approval and it's like, you know, I, I, yeah, it's

[00:31:34] like she's, she's torn me apart, but I still don't want, you know, to upset her.

[00:31:40] Yeah.

[00:31:41] I still want that.

[00:31:42] It's, it's really interesting.

[00:31:44] I did Dr.

[00:31:45] John Demartini's breakthrough weekend, which is good because the, the process is amazing.

[00:31:51] But oh my word, does he talk a lot?

[00:31:53] Like says someone who's talking a lot on a podcast.

[00:31:56] Um, but it's like, he waffles often.

[00:31:59] You don't get all the agenda done and it's like, oh, that's frustrating.

[00:32:02] So it's really, really intense.

[00:32:03] However, in that weekend I lost every last moment of, or any drop of resentment I felt

[00:32:10] towards my mother.

[00:32:11] Because what he does is he goes into all of the traits and he gets you to recognize that

[00:32:16] you own all the traits that she displays.

[00:32:17] In fact, you have used them all.

[00:32:20] And then when you use them, what was the benefit to the other person?

[00:32:23] So I was looking at how I, cause I was so messed up in my twenties, how badly I'd treated my

[00:32:29] ex fiance and I had demonstrated my mother's behaviors and there were benefits to him of

[00:32:34] my vile, vile behavior.

[00:32:37] And it was like, whoa, like, and so you suddenly lose the resentment when you realize we are all

[00:32:44] capable of acting that way and what's behind it.

[00:32:47] And it's that getting to that point where you feel compassion, but also you see, well, what did I

[00:32:55] gain from my childhood?

[00:32:56] And that's the other piece he does.

[00:32:59] I'm incredibly resilient.

[00:33:01] I'm independent.

[00:33:02] I'm just, you know, communicating is everything I do is about communicating, speaking, being heard,

[00:33:08] writing, you know, and I'm just, I have so many strengths because I went through that.

[00:33:12] Nothing phases me.

[00:33:15] And I think the other thing though, you know, you're like, oh, well, in my twenties, you know,

[00:33:20] but, but I mean, the thing is, it's like, well, if you're, you know, for want of the better word

[00:33:26] programming is this is what, this is how you treat your loved ones.

[00:33:31] Yeah.

[00:33:31] Then, you know, yeah, but yeah.

[00:33:35] And that's the way you act because that's pretty much all, you know, all you've seen.

[00:33:39] And it's funny cause I've said to, cause there's, I mean, I literally, I was dreadful.

[00:33:43] I was sleeping around because you get that thrill of, of someone is attracted to you.

[00:33:47] And you think in that moment that they love you.

[00:33:50] And then you, then they dump you three seconds later.

[00:33:52] And I was running this vicious cycle of constantly ending up feeling worse.

[00:33:56] And I will always say, cause you know, women, it's usually women having the conversation

[00:34:00] and they're saying, oh God, she's a slut.

[00:34:02] And I'm like, there will be a trauma behind that.

[00:34:06] But there will be some form of abuse behind that because we're not, we don't do that.

[00:34:11] It is a vicious, vicious cycle.

[00:34:13] And I think it's a great symptom for someone to realize they're running that pattern.

[00:34:17] I will, I say have, because I haven't been in a relationship for a long time, but love

[00:34:23] addiction is also a really hard one that you get from the kind of trauma I went through.

[00:34:27] So where you start a relationship and I have to consciously stay in the day and not kind

[00:34:34] of dream away a future with this person that I've just met, which creates another illusion

[00:34:39] that then bursts, that then adds to that low self-worth and you go around on a vicious.

[00:34:44] So that was a big part of my healing with Michelle, as well as recognizing that and going,

[00:34:48] got to stay every relationship.

[00:34:50] Like it's today.

[00:34:51] It's only today that matters.

[00:34:53] Just don't, don't think about a future with this person just to keep it real and grounded.

[00:34:59] And that's really hard as well.

[00:35:00] So there was a lot of that going on in my twenties, even probably part of my thirties,

[00:35:04] to be fair, that dreaming away delusion, repeating the cycle.

[00:35:09] I mean, you know, you sort of said that you'd start this work in your forties, but you,

[00:35:16] you know, you'd spent your entire life riddled with anxiety and insecurity.

[00:35:21] I mean, I'm guessing your career didn't take off when you were 40.

[00:35:26] I mean, you talked about, you know, sort of the environments that you were in.

[00:35:30] I mean, you know, and so I guess it's sort of a theme that we often have with guests

[00:35:38] is they're like, oh, well, you know, well, I was suffering from burnout.

[00:35:41] I wasn't coping with this.

[00:35:43] I wasn't coping with that.

[00:35:44] And my question is, was that how you felt or were people telling you that?

[00:35:49] And often it's like, oh, well, that's how I felt.

[00:35:51] So they felt they were failing at work rather than they were failing at work.

[00:35:56] And, you know, I know it's like, well, sometimes it doesn't matter because if you don't,

[00:36:00] if you believe something, then, you know, that's what we say.

[00:36:05] Sorry.

[00:36:07] Yeah, no, no.

[00:36:08] Interesting.

[00:36:08] So I never called it anxiety either.

[00:36:11] So I, because I was obviously running hypervigilant.

[00:36:15] Like I didn't know.

[00:36:16] I never, I genuinely never thought it was anxiety.

[00:36:19] What I was, was extremely defensive.

[00:36:21] So very difficult for people to talk to me about anything.

[00:36:25] And obviously in a work environment, God, some of my managers, bless them.

[00:36:29] But no, I was always successful.

[00:36:31] Once I got past myself, so I remember I, so I started a degree, which wasn't right for me.

[00:36:38] Probably it was too much of a shock as well, from very strict private school to going to university.

[00:36:43] Just too much like, you know, boys and bars and not having to attend lectures, you know?

[00:36:49] So anyway, promptly left university and I just ended up working in the bank.

[00:36:53] And I worked up to a certain level and then I just couldn't get past securities.

[00:36:57] And I, cause in my head I'm going, I can't do this.

[00:36:59] I can't do this.

[00:37:00] And then the second I could, I would excel.

[00:37:02] The second I'd get past that self-doubt.

[00:37:05] And then I was worked in the motor trade, selling like extras to people.

[00:37:09] They'd buy a car and then I'd be sat in front of them and upsell them.

[00:37:12] And I was, I was extremely good at that.

[00:37:14] And when I was in agency recruitment, again, extremely talented at doing that.

[00:37:21] So no, it wasn't holding me back on my career.

[00:37:24] It was genuinely, I was just at a crossroads more than that.

[00:37:28] But where it, running my own business, it's probably held me back because I had such a fear of rejection that I just, and believe me, I still don't really like doing it.

[00:37:40] But I didn't want to make the cold calls to go, hi, can I come and sort out your hiring managers because they're screwing up your candidate experience?

[00:37:48] You know, I just, I, so instead what I did was I wrote and I tweeted and I, I became aware to people rather than do the thing that would send me.

[00:38:02] So it was probably more trying to do a business and heal.

[00:38:07] I, I would say to people, it would have made a lot more sense that I just stayed in a job while I was healing and then started my business rather than, I got there, I'm fine.

[00:38:16] But then you'd still be in that job and you might not have been on this self-discovery.

[00:38:21] Yeah, that's true.

[00:38:23] And actually because of this, it gave me the flexibility and the time as well.

[00:38:27] Cause some days you just don't want to work when you, you know, had a day where you just maybe feel a bit raw and you just need some time to get back grounded.

[00:38:36] Yeah, you're right.

[00:38:36] Actually, if I was in a job, I would not have gone to see her.

[00:38:39] I'd have just poodled along in my career.

[00:38:41] But I think the, I mean, so much of the reason I've also written the memoir is I'm very tired of a lot of the mislabeling stroke, misdiagnosis that's happening.

[00:38:53] I see a lot of people who tell, who I know their stories, who are demonstrating complex PTSD.

[00:39:01] And I'm going, and you've been told you've got that diagnosis and you're being given that tablet.

[00:39:06] So you're surviving, you're getting through life, you're coping, but you could be thriving.

[00:39:13] And there's, there was a misnomer that complex PTSD and PTSD could not be healed.

[00:39:19] Now I have healed it.

[00:39:21] I can still trigger.

[00:39:23] I think that's important to be aware of.

[00:39:26] But what happens when you trigger is you're very quickly aware you're triggering rather than I used to trigger like every single day constantly and not be aware at all.

[00:39:37] Now it'll be like, I actually had a, this happened last week, a line in an email triggered me.

[00:39:43] And I looked at, oh, that's interesting.

[00:39:45] I'm reacting the way I'm reacting.

[00:39:47] Checking on inner child.

[00:39:49] No, it's not inner child.

[00:39:50] Right.

[00:39:50] And, and, you know, you can run through a process.

[00:39:52] So I didn't explode.

[00:39:54] I didn't react.

[00:39:56] I didn't send back vitriol.

[00:39:58] I just went interesting.

[00:40:01] I think that's, yeah.

[00:40:03] A lot of the other reason for getting this out and writing this out is you don't have to cope with life.

[00:40:10] There are enough different kinds of therapies and treatments.

[00:40:13] Like try one, not helping.

[00:40:15] Try something else.

[00:40:17] Ask your network.

[00:40:18] Talk to people.

[00:40:18] What's worked for you?

[00:40:20] What hasn't?

[00:40:20] Someone asked me about EMDR yesterday.

[00:40:24] EMDR.

[00:40:24] Yeah.

[00:40:25] I haven't had it.

[00:40:26] I know someone else that has.

[00:40:28] I'm like, I haven't had it.

[00:40:29] Go talk to this person.

[00:40:30] They have.

[00:40:31] And Prince Harry had it.

[00:40:33] Prince Harry had it.

[00:40:34] So if you Google it, there's a video of him tapping, which is similar to EMDR.

[00:40:42] I've done EFT with the tapping.

[00:40:44] That's, that blew my mind.

[00:40:46] So it's the way EMDR works.

[00:40:47] I'm not an expert at EMDR.

[00:40:49] I'm not trained in EMDR, but I might actually have my EMDR sessions this afternoon.

[00:40:54] So you, you, you, you move your eyes because you, so you reconnect things in your brain.

[00:41:00] If I say, I don't know how it works, but it does work.

[00:41:03] But if you can't do that with the eyes, you can do this through tapping.

[00:41:06] Tapping.

[00:41:07] Or even tapping on, on, on your, on, on your table.

[00:41:11] Because it's, it's just kind of like your, your left, right, left brain, right brain kind

[00:41:15] of like, as long as you do the connections.

[00:41:17] Changing the characters.

[00:41:18] So that's.

[00:41:19] So I did the, the tapping one where you go around.

[00:41:23] Yeah.

[00:41:24] Right.

[00:41:24] Yeah.

[00:41:25] And I did that.

[00:41:26] And I actually, then I was so intrigued by it.

[00:41:29] I did a weekend training on it.

[00:41:30] And on the weekend training, the tutor took me back to the day I was three years old with

[00:41:38] my dad and I released all of his anger.

[00:41:40] I had no idea I was holding.

[00:41:42] Blew my mind.

[00:41:44] So it is extraordinary.

[00:41:46] Yeah.

[00:41:46] That all is.

[00:41:47] That's what I'm saying.

[00:41:48] There's so much.

[00:41:48] And I'm just like, I've written it out because I just want people to get help.

[00:41:52] Which is, which is so important.

[00:41:54] So thanks, thanks for writing the book because I think, as you say, right, 20 years ago,

[00:41:59] we wouldn't do this podcast.

[00:42:00] No.

[00:42:01] Right?

[00:42:01] I mean, David would have been far too young to do it.

[00:42:04] I wasn't born yet.

[00:42:05] Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:07] I didn't want to be that rude.

[00:42:12] But yeah, I think, I think you're absolutely right.

[00:42:14] And that's one of the reasons we do the podcast.

[00:42:16] So, you know, particular men, as you know, don't, don't talk at all.

[00:42:21] You know, especially if they get to a certain age, like myself and, you know, we don't go

[00:42:27] to the doctors.

[00:42:27] We don't talk about it.

[00:42:28] But, you know, there's a reason why, you know, the highest suicide rate in men is around

[00:42:33] middle age, 42.

[00:42:34] Yeah.

[00:42:35] Gen X is the highest suicide rate in the UK.

[00:42:38] It's, it's, yeah.

[00:42:39] I was an elderly man down the road and he's like, what on earth have you written your memoir

[00:42:44] for?

[00:42:44] I'm going to stop the generational trauma.

[00:42:47] So we speak up.

[00:42:48] We need to speak up.

[00:42:49] Stop it here.

[00:42:50] We need to stop it here.

[00:42:51] Let's not pass it any further.

[00:42:52] So thanks for doing that.

[00:42:54] Is the book out?

[00:42:55] When's it out?

[00:42:56] Not yet.

[00:42:56] No, I have, I have just secured a literary agent.

[00:42:59] So it's really, it's hilarious.

[00:43:01] Getting a business book published was very easy for me.

[00:43:04] Getting the second one published also easy, but the memoirs slightly more challenging because

[00:43:08] I'm not famous enough, but it's coming.

[00:43:10] I think it will be out this year.

[00:43:11] I genuinely, but just come find me Katrina Collier.

[00:43:14] I'm very easy to locate on the internet.

[00:43:16] We put all that in the show notes as well.

[00:43:19] And thank you for writing the book.

[00:43:21] We look forward to it and yeah, healing a generation.

[00:43:24] You're absolutely right.

[00:43:25] Thank you.

[00:43:29] Thanks for listening to this week's episode.

[00:43:32] Feel free to reach out to Folker or David via our website, www.manupdown.com or podcast

[00:43:39] at manupdown.com with any feedback or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in

[00:43:44] the future.

[00:43:45] Hear you again soon.