On Being Men

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Man Up Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often

[00:00:16] too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:20] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com.

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:35] So welcome to another episode of Man Up Man Down and this week we're welcoming Yaron Engler.

[00:00:41] Yaron is the founder of Being Men and Being Men is a program aimed at men that are feeling

[00:00:46] a bit lost in life and lacking purpose.

[00:00:49] In his 90 day program, Yaron helps men tackle negative self-talk, self-judgment

[00:00:54] and judgment on others in order to create more intimacy, more connection and more

[00:00:59] friendships.

[00:01:00] I mean in short he helps men who feel they have untapped potential.

[00:01:04] But it's a space that he says isn't macho or hippie, just one that helps men become

[00:01:08] better people to help improve their world around them.

[00:01:12] So welcome Yaron, thanks for coming on.

[00:01:15] Thanks for having me, thanks for the invitation, good to see you too again.

[00:01:18] It's always funny to hear the stuff about your stuff talked by someone else, it's

[00:01:23] amusing always but yeah thank you.

[00:01:26] But I mean as Yaron said, he said nice to see you again, Yaron came to our

[00:01:31] first live event that we held in Brighton.

[00:01:34] So you know there might be some of the topics that we discussed there, might come up.

[00:01:39] I mean I guess I'll start with the fact that you sort of said it's not macho and

[00:01:43] it's not hippie.

[00:01:44] You know I mean I guess A, that is probably the perception of personal development and

[00:01:52] self-development.

[00:01:54] So you know where, well A, how do you feel about those kind of environments and

[00:02:01] what have you sort of chosen to do something that's perhaps in the middle of those two things?

[00:02:08] Yeah it's an interesting one because no, it's not a macho space, it's also not a hippie

[00:02:13] space.

[00:02:13] It's not a cult, some people say I don't know whatever, but it's also not therapy

[00:02:18] and I think there is a confusion there a lot of times that is even more important

[00:02:22] to differentiate because there are guys that come to me sometimes and talk to me about

[00:02:26] joining and I feel like it's not really the right space for them, it's better to go

[00:02:30] through therapy and again that's not something I'm saying from a place of judgment or anything,

[00:02:33] I've done a lot of therapy on myself and actually the interesting thing is that almost

[00:02:39] all the men that join are community because it is a community in the end.

[00:02:44] The training program is kind of the gateway for you if you want to join the community

[00:02:48] because it's quite an intense program to go through and if you haven't done any

[00:02:53] form of therapy before it would be probably too much for you to handle.

[00:02:56] But guys that have done the therapy and they kind of cracked the initial fears, the initial

[00:03:03] I don't know and so on and they discovered okay I can be a little bit more vulnerable

[00:03:08] and then they feel like yeah but what now?

[00:03:10] What do I want to do with it right now?

[00:03:12] Or guys that are still going through therapy but they feel that in parallel they want

[00:03:16] to spend more time with guys who are very committed to bite life in the ass a little

[00:03:21] bit you know because we can go in life and just accept that this is what is and be a victim

[00:03:27] mentality and so on but if we already went through therapy and we've done the work on

[00:03:32] ourselves there is kind of a hunger suddenly again to do something, what do I want to do?

[00:03:37] And that's where I'm getting excited to work with men who are willing to be open,

[00:03:42] vulnerable to say that they're fucked up and beautiful as everybody else

[00:03:46] and they're really interested to what can I do with it?

[00:03:50] What can I do with it for myself, for my wife, for my kids, for my business, for society?

[00:03:57] And that's the game that we're playing but in order to play in that game you have to go

[00:04:01] through some exercises and practices that really challenge your character

[00:04:05] and help you become that man that you want to be and then being in a community with guys

[00:04:09] that went through this kind of call it again if I say the word I say the word and

[00:04:12] I'm going to cancel the word that I'm going to say I'm going to say if you went

[00:04:15] because I'm going to say that's how it feels a little bit if you go through that boot camp but

[00:04:19] again if I say boot camp people think oh so it's a macho thing when you're going no it's really

[00:04:23] really not it's a boot camp for your soul you know what actually it's the first time

[00:04:27] I'm thinking about it because we don't spend enough time with our souls we wank around with

[00:04:33] our mind thinking I'm not good enough what am I doing ta ta ta and we wank a lot with

[00:04:38] our bodies going to the gym pump ourselves up but we don't do this to the soul and I guess

[00:04:43] probably this is what it is if you want to really feel pure and clear with yourself

[00:04:48] and remove all the fucking bullshit and really connect with who you truly are

[00:04:53] it's not easy because you really have to face your demons and habits and things that you

[00:04:58] believe and think about yourselves and the way you communicate with the world with yourself

[00:05:03] so if you're willing to go through that path then on the other side you can connect

[00:05:07] with other men who have done that path and you meet soul to soul you no longer meet with ego to

[00:05:13] ego or or I need to prove myself to prove myself or let's go it's not it's not that macho it's

[00:05:17] not also that hippie it's just true truth that's how I see it very long answer but I hope that

[00:05:24] this makes sense I mean are you able to sort of give I mean you know sort of give an idea

[00:05:31] of the types of exercises or you know like you said you know it is a well stripping away yourself

[00:05:39] yeah and then building it back up I guess so yeah I mean could you sort of tell us a bit

[00:05:43] more about about the process of the the 90 day program you are spending time with a small

[00:05:49] group of men with a facilitator and we take you through different elements of your life that

[00:05:56] you need to look at and you explore them now the program is not a knowledge-based program I think

[00:06:02] we have a lot of that kind of learning in the world where you are receiving knowledge you read

[00:06:07] something and then you think that you have it now it's very nice but if we start to teach

[00:06:13] people how to drive a car only by reading about it ah not sure it's a good idea same thing

[00:06:19] with baking a cake I can read all the recipes and say I'm the best baker in the world it's

[00:06:25] not true so how can we assume that we can be fathers without actually practicing it how can

[00:06:32] we assume that we create intimacy with our intimate partners without actually challenging

[00:06:37] our nervous system about how it feels like to stand and to hold my boundaries how does it feel

[00:06:42] to so we work on the way you breathe or the way you stand on the way you communicate for example

[00:06:48] for a lot of men we always listen to the words and take them as what's being said but

[00:06:53] there is a very big difference between I'm okay and I'm okay the content is exactly the same and

[00:07:00] a lot of men don't always pay attention to to the body language to the energy that that little

[00:07:05] two words these two little words have were transmitted in so many ways and this kind of

[00:07:12] communication comes from the more feminine kind of beings whether it be our kids who are

[00:07:17] very connected to their emotions or our wives and I'm not saying that wives are there it is no

[00:07:22] separation there is no it's all about love in the end but if my wife who is a more feminine

[00:07:29] being than me is communicating with a lot of body language and I don't have the vocabulary

[00:07:33] to understand that so I will take her words as what's being said and this is why we have

[00:07:39] so many separations so many conflicts so many divorces so it's about learning these things

[00:07:44] through your nervous system so we will put you on purpose in uncomfortable situations

[00:07:49] where you need to communicate in a certain way or receive communication in a certain way

[00:07:53] but through that discomfort on the other side of it there is a lot of power and it's really

[00:07:59] interesting to see because every time we take the man into this place you see at the beginning

[00:08:03] it's like oh this is a bit uncomfortable but in the end you see guys that feel so empowered

[00:08:09] so powerful and then I hear for example a guy that just told us a divorced guy invited his wife

[00:08:17] his ex which she said like the relationship is really challenging invited her to Christmas

[00:08:24] to spend time with him and the children together and he said they had blissful time together

[00:08:29] over Christmas because he's now understanding how to communicate now how much energy pain

[00:08:37] and money is going through so many divorces if men can learn this before they can either prevent

[00:08:44] all these costs that are again it's money energy time logistics and so on or at least create if

[00:08:50] if really needed so okay we can create healthy separations but even more how can we those of

[00:08:56] us who are in relationships suddenly you see that the people around you change to you

[00:09:00] your wife suddenly reacts to you differently or your kids react for you differently people

[00:09:05] at your work react for you differently and it's incredible that nobody teaches us these things

[00:09:10] you know they will teach us in school I always say they will teach us in schools what happened

[00:09:14] in 1827 in in mars and and how to calculate angles and whatever thing that I learned in math

[00:09:21] and stuff which again is important for people who want to go to that direction but there are

[00:09:25] not many all of us are struggling with intimate relationships all of us are struggling

[00:09:31] with what the hell am I doing with my life all of us are struggling with like fuck I need to educate

[00:09:36] these kids that I have and I really don't know what I'm doing and that happens in different

[00:09:40] stages you know they're babies and then they become toddlers and then like suddenly my my

[00:09:44] boy or my girl is like they're becoming adults what am I doing with it and so on the real

[00:09:49] life things that's the invitation for me I think if we all go through this process where

[00:09:56] learn where we unlearn that's the thing because most of I don't teach actually anything

[00:10:01] I'm peeling away all the bullshit that men have learned to grab and put on themselves from the

[00:10:07] teachers parents family the most loved ones often and all those layers that make them live

[00:10:14] life that they think other expect them to live and I'm saying fuck that live your own life

[00:10:20] now you won't probably know what the hell that means at the beginning but let's discover and

[00:10:24] we have very clear processes to make that happen and it's the thing it's a bit scary at

[00:10:29] the beginning but once you start it's like ah you suddenly like hallelujah you know you have

[00:10:34] a whole world that suddenly opens to you and it's it I love it man I absolutely love it I

[00:10:38] love doing it on my own because that's where it started but seeing how the guys slowly

[00:10:44] remove all those baggages and suddenly they find that they can breathe that they can enjoy

[00:10:49] that they can ah I can play with life more it's a beautiful thing hello it's volker here I hope

[00:10:55] you enjoy this episode you might not realize that I have been coaching for almost a decade

[00:11:01] through both third parties and private clients during that time I've worked with brands such

[00:11:07] as general electric imperial brands DHL and pepsi however this year I'm putting a big

[00:11:15] emphasis on growing my private coaching practice improving lives of middle-aged men in leadership

[00:11:20] positions so if you hit midlife transition point and you might be a bit stuck or looking

[00:11:26] to improve your work life balance your career or productivity you want to build a new habit

[00:11:33] will you just want to become a better version of yourself please hit me up you can reach me

[00:11:39] on volker.natus that's volker at obnat.us or linkedin whatever is easiest thanks and now

[00:11:50] back to the episode so how I mean you sort of said about you know you've sort of did the

[00:11:58] work yourself what was that kind of process from working on yourself and then deciding

[00:12:05] that you want to help other men go through the process the why I'm helping other men there are

[00:12:10] two layers to this but the connection for me to overcome so I started to have severe depression

[00:12:17] since I was a teenager really bad depressions which took me for like two three days I was

[00:12:23] out and out means also physically physically I know that people who listen cannot see but I

[00:12:28] can show you I would get stuck with my neck or with my back and I wouldn't be able to move

[00:12:33] for like two three days it would be agony like going out of bed was like literally agonies

[00:12:37] process of 45 minutes because I was completely blocked it's like my whole body like locked

[00:12:43] on itself and then early 20 well before that actually at the age of 19 my parents decided

[00:12:52] I asked me do you want to go we have a psychiatrist friend why don't you go and

[00:12:55] speak to him maybe he can help and I went to him and about two sessions in he gave me

[00:13:00] pills and I took the bills for two to three weeks to reduce the depression and whatever

[00:13:06] and I don't know why and again just to be very clear I'm not saying that pills are wrong and I

[00:13:11] think for some people it they're really really the right thing but I also think that for so

[00:13:14] many people that are the wrong thing and there is much more natural ways to do it and

[00:13:18] that's what I'm talking about I knew back then I don't need these pills and I can find

[00:13:23] my own way out of it I had no idea how but it was very clear for me from my inner truth

[00:13:28] again from that inner voice it was very strong and that started for me a very long journey of

[00:13:33] self-discovery so now it's what is it 25 years I guess since that no I'm much older fuck me man

[00:13:40] it's almost 30 I can't count anymore it's too I'm too old so so that was a very long journey

[00:13:46] and then I learned from so many methods I started to speak about my early 20s because

[00:13:51] that's where I one method that I did was Greenberg method which really helped me to

[00:13:54] completely remove that thing the physical element of the depressions not the depressions

[00:13:59] themselves but the physical element like the neck and back I was able to release through the

[00:14:04] understanding oh there is a connection between the way I breathe my body pain the mind the

[00:14:09] way it sinks I started to put the puzzle together so I got rid of that and then I've done

[00:14:14] so much work on myself like really I can't even count the amount of seminars workshops

[00:14:21] retreats books and so on that I've done on myself that 2010 I was able to let go of my

[00:14:27] depression once it's for all through spiritual practice as well which I use a lot in my work

[00:14:32] again finding my way out of that of feeling lost of being super super awkward with women

[00:14:38] and girls at the beginning of that women I was so shy super lack of confidence like everything

[00:14:45] that I worked with other people I had it so and I got rid of it and and some of it is

[00:14:49] still in process again I'm very clear with also because I don't like it in self-development you

[00:14:54] know that's you have this everybody looks perfect on Instagram you know no I don't have all my

[00:14:58] shit together there's shit loads that I'm still working on and there are still moments that I

[00:15:02] wake up and ask myself like whoa but I have many tools now to work with it and so it's

[00:15:09] all that all this rich experience of learning how to dismantle those problems for myself

[00:15:14] that's one thing that really really inspires me to work with people the other one is that I just

[00:15:20] took a choice of running my life in a way that I don't know where I had the courage but

[00:15:27] I didn't ever saw it as courage people tell me it's courage but I lived I chose a career

[00:15:32] that most people told me like you should get a real job should be serious but I from the

[00:15:36] age of four I knew that I'm going to be a drummer really like I didn't know and from the

[00:15:40] age of kind of teenage which is interesting because where the depression started started more

[00:15:45] or less from that age I knew this is it I'm going to do it and I knew from the bottom of

[00:15:51] my heart there was absolutely no doubt in me that I will be touring with Sting and Phil

[00:15:57] Collins like it was as obvious as you're going to drink a glass of water every day like

[00:16:03] and because I embodied that feeling that I'm going to tour with these guys I start I went

[00:16:07] I had to move to the big city where I come from Tel Aviv and then I started to

[00:16:13] perform and I became kind of one of the drummers kind of in the end then I got a

[00:16:17] scholarship for Berkeley College of Music which is a very well known music college

[00:16:22] and then I moved to Spain and blah blah blah and I toured literally all over the world

[00:16:26] from Sydney Opera House to Brazil to Japan to Korea done all this never met Phil Collins and

[00:16:30] Sting by the way that never happened but that mentality of like fuck yeah I'm the

[00:16:36] drummer of Phil because I remember myself at the age of 15 playing drums in my room and I was on

[00:16:42] stage with them I felt the audience like I like you know arena of thousands of people so I

[00:16:49] taught myself how to embody what I want to create in my life now it never really happens

[00:16:53] the way we envision it but that in but again it's instead of thinking about it I became it

[00:17:00] and it led to a very very rich experience so I know what it is to live on purpose

[00:17:05] I know all the challenges that come with it because my goodness it wasn't an easy path

[00:17:10] but it's also super fulfilling and super meaningful and so on so that's another thing

[00:17:14] that really drives me because I see so many men turned off and thinking that that's it this is

[00:17:20] it kind of asking themselves and accepting that it is it and I'm saying no it's not

[00:17:24] and it doesn't mean that you have to change your career now become a drummer by the way

[00:17:28] because it really the details actually don't matter it's more about the way you walk

[00:17:31] the way you talk the way you breathe if we work on that and you start to change yourself

[00:17:37] it really creates a change and by the way another element that is important in the work with men

[00:17:41] is also I decided to change my career because in my 30s suddenly it felt like you know what I

[00:17:46] don't longer have that passion for drumming and then I started to reflect like what really

[00:17:52] as I call it what makes me horny about life and and what made me horny about life I

[00:17:56] suddenly reflected it was a lot of community projects that we did that I worked with people

[00:18:02] and through the process I really helped them see themselves in a different light and I remember

[00:18:08] those moments of the eye connection that suddenly someone believes in themselves even now when I

[00:18:12] say it gives me goosebumps I felt this is what I want to do with my life and then slowly

[00:18:18] it moved into the direction that I'm doing today what is it exactly you're doing then

[00:18:22] today is it you you're running workshops you're doing one-to-one coaching

[00:18:26] so on being men is a community as I said it's a community for men the men that we have on board

[00:18:30] is men who are usually would be either freelancers or company directors or owning

[00:18:37] their own business and so on because these people have this a bit more funky kind of

[00:18:41] lifestyle you know if you're an employee you know that you're going in the morning you come

[00:18:44] back in the day you give your salary and it's very predictable so I've never been like

[00:18:49] that so it's again we have some guys like this but the majority of the guys are guys who run this

[00:18:54] unknown life and need to juggle it and the community as I said you if you want to join us

[00:19:00] you go through that 90-day program it changed in the beginning it was longer and so now we're

[00:19:04] making it 90 day and then if you want to join the community you join what we do is

[00:19:08] we meet regularly so you have a community of brothers that you know that you come you meet

[00:19:13] regularly you can check in with them you do you continue to do those deep practices

[00:19:18] and I guess one of the the highest values that the people really really love is that it's a

[00:19:23] play it's very very unique place where you can really give and receive real honest feedback

[00:19:29] about yourself so that you can really see your blind spots and grow so that's the main thing

[00:19:34] other than that we do a weekend so we have a weekend coming up in July here in Sussex

[00:19:38] we also run different workshops and so on and there is one-to-one elements some guys like to

[00:19:44] have the one-to-one in parallel so we do this myself or Simon we have another coach that's

[00:19:48] that's what I do around this I also still have some drumming career going on so

[00:19:53] which is exciting to keep on the background not with the Collins so not with the Collins

[00:19:57] no not yet I did meet there though and I had a great meeting after one of my last shows

[00:20:02] we've toured with the Peaky Blinders tour of the dance piece and the the Philip Selway the

[00:20:08] drummer of Radiohead came to see the show and we play one of their songs in the show and he

[00:20:12] came to me after and and he said he absolutely loved it it was so nice to connect with him

[00:20:17] like that and because it's a big show and so on so yeah it's good fun it's really good

[00:20:22] fun it's really cool see this is something that I didn't know about you so this could

[00:20:28] now just turn into a long chat about drumming and yeah man whatever we take

[00:20:37] no I'm not a drummer I was always the front man in bands but oh yeah but uh

[00:20:44] but yeah now we'll try and try and stay on topic so well actually now I'm gonna have to

[00:20:49] ask what sort of um like do you tour now still then? The last tour I did was as I said

[00:20:56] with the Peaky Blinders the return of the redemption of Tommy Shelby you can watch it

[00:21:01] on the BBC by the way it's on the BBC iPlayer now so you can if you want to look at it

[00:21:06] it's a dance piece so most of my career was in Danceworld so I've done that tour which

[00:21:11] ended in May and I'm now I probably will go back on that tour in this in the autumn

[00:21:17] and I'm working with Hoffes who is another choreographer that I worked with on the new

[00:21:21] piece of his but that's all secondary because my main main focus is on the community

[00:21:27] on being men but I just it's important for me because part of the thing that why also I'm

[00:21:34] keeping the drumming there because it's fun and I want to show people like here I'm doing this

[00:21:40] work and it's deep work and we go serious sometimes we laugh a lot also at being men

[00:21:44] but I'm also doing some drumming so don't tell me it's impossible if somebody tells

[00:21:48] me it's impossible tell him like ah no let's play with it before you tell me it's impossible

[00:21:54] let's explore our options here and then see what happens man up man down is sponsored by

[00:22:00] well-doing there's someone who has seen a counselor for a number of years I think their

[00:22:04] approach is great they want you to find the mental health professional who is right for you

[00:22:08] you can filter your search to highlight therapists with expertise where you need it

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[00:22:26] So you sort of mentioned about you know you mainly sort of work with self-employed

[00:22:32] business owners and I mean he made such an interesting point you know I guess it almost

[00:22:40] feels like you're you know when you work for yourself and you know it's almost like this is

[00:22:45] pretty much was the blueprint for the podcast but you know me and Volker sort of talk about

[00:22:51] well you know you're trying to be I've sort of gone through periods I'm like well just feeling

[00:22:56] unhappy and then it was a realization of well I'm trying to be the perfect father I'm trying

[00:23:01] to be the perfect businessman trying to be the perfect husband trying to be the perfect

[00:23:06] dog owner but then I had a realization of like well actually you know I can look at

[00:23:12] so-and-so that I know that's got a really successful business well yeah at the end of

[00:23:17] the day there's always a trade-off you know you've got to it is a balancing act

[00:23:22] so you know it is like well if I do want to spend time well yeah it's all I guess you

[00:23:28] know a lot about values and my values were I want to spend time with my children and

[00:23:34] I guess you know now that they're sort of getting older my my youngest will be going

[00:23:38] to secondary school next year well I feel like you know my sort of career trajectory is

[00:23:44] taking off again and you know and I spent so much time as I say you know looking at friends

[00:23:50] and who work for you know companies that are household names cool tech companies and I think

[00:23:57] oh well if I hadn't become a stay-at-home dad you know that's what I could have been doing

[00:24:01] but at the same time I'm like well actually you know I've put in those foundations

[00:24:06] on you know that aspect and you know I'm not saying that I am the perfect father and that

[00:24:13] you know I make parenting mistakes but um yeah I guess you know my values were more

[00:24:21] directed that way than I need to earn x amount of money but yeah I mean as I say this is

[00:24:27] kind of something that me and Volker talk about a lot you know on air and off air

[00:24:32] it's you know how do you find that balance first of all it's interesting the way you said it because

[00:24:38] that's I think that's the problem first of all I think it's great the path that you've taken

[00:24:43] and I'm sure that a lot of those guys that you look at their success look at you and say like

[00:24:48] fuck me I would have loved to have more time with my kids and not be stuck at work you know

[00:24:52] we look outward for the answers we compare constantly outwards and I think it's such a

[00:24:59] waste of time and this is the invitation like I don't care about what's out there

[00:25:05] I'm interested like David let's look at what's really okay you spoke about your what are your

[00:25:09] values what's really important for you so right now you've decided which again I know your

[00:25:14] decision because when my kids were born my wife is was back then a dancer in the same

[00:25:19] company that I toured with and she was very determined to continue with her career

[00:25:24] so when my daughter was two months old my wife went to full-time rehearsals eight hours a week

[00:25:31] her body is a dancer so she went back to like normal body like a week it was ridiculous

[00:25:36] and I became the full-time daddy you know so I know your reality I was when my wife was on

[00:25:40] tour for weeks many weeks I was with the kids with all the nappies and the the bottles and

[00:25:46] so on so I know I know what you're referring to and and it's so hard man you've done such a

[00:25:53] and you know how what hard job you did so why the hell to compare ourselves to those guys who

[00:26:00] chose that path which maybe is good for them maybe not you don't know and I don't care

[00:26:03] unless I'm speaking to the person I'm more interested to know okay so you decided to

[00:26:08] take that pause to dedicate to your children there is a lot of awareness in you right now

[00:26:11] okay my kids are now starting to grow so maybe there's more time for me great let's

[00:26:15] explore that I don't care about other people what's important to you what are your values what

[00:26:20] can be your purpose you don't know cool that's fine and that's where we play with your truth

[00:26:25] not with what's supposed to be based on Instagram so this is this is for me and

[00:26:31] that's the way I do my balance I'm trying to constantly check in with myself what's important

[00:26:35] for me to connect with these feelings that we have in our body that most of us you

[00:26:39] know as men we get stuck in our head and we think about everything but there is so much

[00:26:43] wisdom that we have in the body that tells us this is right and this is wrong for you

[00:26:47] so we need to tap into that having the right people around which again it's a big value in

[00:26:52] the program because you spend time with guys that would really give you feedback they will

[00:26:56] tell you like David um you're too harsh on yourself man like take it easy or they will

[00:27:02] tell you David you've been talking about this that you want to do it but you've been talking

[00:27:05] and talking and I don't trust that you well actually want to do it man and they will give

[00:27:09] you that feedback in the face and you're smiling now and I tell it to you because

[00:27:12] it's like we I think as men we are craving this kind of feedback but we live in a world

[00:27:17] that you say something oh this is great with a fake smile on our face and like I don't get any

[00:27:22] value from that so I created this space on being meant for me because I need just tell

[00:27:28] me the truth if you see that I'm fucking up tell me and because then I can do something

[00:27:34] about it if you see that I'm too harsh on myself tell me and so on and so this is how I balance

[00:27:42] it by creating my you spoke about values my top top value in life is honesty so the whole

[00:27:48] community is based on that honesty like we're going to be very honest there are other values

[00:27:52] that are implemented very strong but honesty I have implemented in every element in my life

[00:27:57] so every relationship that I have if I feel that there is again if I get this feeling

[00:28:01] that people are talking around the bushes or not I don't spend time a lot in this kind of

[00:28:07] environment with my wife it's very challenging but we have a very very honest relationship

[00:28:12] because I told her from the beginning if this relationship is going to work it's only if we

[00:28:15] can tell each other everything so we're working on that I work with my kids on communicating

[00:28:20] also and that's tricky it's tricky with kids because there's still not the awareness of

[00:28:24] appropriate because there is appropriate also so I guess to your question it is that I'll give

[00:28:33] you a phrase that we say a lot in the community I'm walking the talk because I think a lot of

[00:28:39] times we talk about ta ta ta ta it's very nice but it's like you want to be honest you want

[00:28:43] to face a difficult conversation so I'm gonna lean in I'm gonna lean into the difficult

[00:28:48] conversation that I'm going to send that email that I don't understand I'm going to talk

[00:28:51] to my wife about this thing that pisses me off it's about that walking the talk that's how I deal

[00:28:56] with it do you think men really craze that feedback it's interesting because David's

[00:29:02] David's reaction was like smiley you know and I'm thinking I don't know if I want to hear

[00:29:06] that feedback and coming from my point of view I would say most people won't and maybe David

[00:29:13] says oh most people will and of course there's always a divide but do we really do we really

[00:29:17] want to know it no that's the thing this is why I said from the beginning it's not for

[00:29:21] everyone and I think do you know that this is why also it's beautiful because if we talk about

[00:29:26] men spaces there are so many ways to facilitate that space and my space definitely is not for

[00:29:32] everybody that's what I said it's for people who are craving and I am craving like give me

[00:29:36] give me to be in the place with five six eight guys that we're going to be brutally

[00:29:41] honest with each other from a place of love not from a place of like yeah come on you

[00:29:46] know it's from hey I can see you I can see what you want but you're off man and here's what I

[00:29:52] feel this for me is so valuable and a lot of men are craving this many many most men as you

[00:29:57] said probably aren't and for this is why I refer a lot of guys to other places because

[00:30:03] there are other places that would be more therapeutic and more call it light maybe

[00:30:07] in their approach and and whatever so definitely it's not for everyone I mean that

[00:30:15] that reminds me once my um my cousin's wife is a South African so I guess they're you know

[00:30:22] well she's very forthright and and you know if she thinks it she says it and I remember her

[00:30:28] once sort of saying to me oh you look like you've put on weight and then she said oh

[00:30:36] you know oh sorry if I've offended you and I was like well you've told me when I've lost

[00:30:40] weight as well you know you're just stating the facts so you know it's like well yeah I'm

[00:30:46] either fat or not and um mainly fat but yeah you know that might not be nice for me to hear

[00:30:55] but I know that a as you said it's not maliciousness um and you know as I say it's

[00:31:01] like well but she'd sort of still give me that feedback if it was positive absolutely but

[00:31:07] there is an important detail here in the community that we run everybody enters this

[00:31:12] community knowing this is what they want and these are the rules of the games I'm not going

[00:31:16] to go and start to talk to everybody that I see in the street now with brutal honesty man

[00:31:20] you look really fat you know I'm not going to say it's not that there is a difference if

[00:31:24] you join a place where everybody really agrees and there are very very clear rules of how

[00:31:29] we play so everybody knows it so there is a lot of respect and a lot of love when these

[00:31:34] things are being communicated and the outcomes are great yeah just wanted to mention that

[00:31:40] seems important the container is important I'm just thinking I'm just thinking I don't think

[00:31:45] it's for me but I'm thinking why is it not for me that's what I'm thinking David is it

[00:31:51] for you? I mean I guess that I've you know there would have been a time when that sort

[00:32:02] of comment would have upset me sort of going back to what Yaron sort of said about you know

[00:32:11] teaching our children and you know sort of trying to teach them about well I guess positive

[00:32:17] outlook and you know being respectful with each other I mean like I sort of coach help coach

[00:32:26] my son's football team and I just sort of find myself so often kind of I mean like so I was

[00:32:34] playing football last night it obviously it's a physical game and you know me and a couple of

[00:32:40] guys squared up because you know I get I probably failed them didn't get as much of

[00:32:46] the ball as I thought I had perhaps but um well like you know the inner chimp or whatever

[00:32:50] you want to call it comes out and you know you sort of puff up your chest and then you know I'm

[00:32:57] always like if I saw the boys doing this I'd be like what are you doing you know respect your

[00:33:02] opponents just get on with the game sort of thing and I guess what I'm saying is you know

[00:33:08] I guess that is almost like part of fatherhood but you I'm like I can't talk the talk you

[00:33:15] know if I'm talking the talk then I've got to walk the walk you know I can't say well this

[00:33:19] is a value to have if you know my son and the other boys don't see that and so I don't know

[00:33:28] if I've answered your question Volker and again that is part of when you sort of work for yourself

[00:33:34] and you work on your own you don't get that feedback you know you don't get that sort

[00:33:40] of regular appraisal and I mean for me that can often sort of manifest itself as well I'm you know

[00:33:50] well in low self-esteem and not feeling great but then at the other side it's almost like

[00:33:58] well yeah do I you know do I need to get better at accepting feedback and the only

[00:34:03] way to get better at that is to get more regular feedback and that feedback's not always

[00:34:09] going to be the feedback I want to hear. So how much do I crave that feedback?

[00:34:15] So we never download to the feedback right but how much do I?

[00:34:18] I think we're overthinking it to be honest because it's it's it's the question is quite

[00:34:22] clear I think the guys that are interested in something like this would feel that they

[00:34:25] want it the same as you know do you want to eat pasta with certain sauce you know like oh

[00:34:30] yeah some people say yes some people say no it's as simple as that I don't think we need

[00:34:35] to overthink it it's quite obvious for me when I speak to someone if they're interested in that

[00:34:40] it's quite obvious for me when I speak to someone where something else would be more beneficial

[00:34:44] for them like anything else in life so I don't think there's not a lot of overthinking needs

[00:34:48] to be done around that. Yeah maybe I am overthinking it and then yeah I think I think

[00:34:53] the initiative is great right so I love I love the idea of that community and yeah it can't

[00:34:57] be for everyone right that's the other thing. No and I think that the important thing is

[00:35:01] that we see and I see more and more spaces for men because some men that maybe listen to this

[00:35:06] and they feel very inspired well I want to know more great but some men will be no that's not

[00:35:11] the right thing for me I just want to say to them if they are not aware I'm sure that if

[00:35:15] people listen to this regularly they will be aware but there are many many other types of

[00:35:19] places and it's about going and exploring to see what's right for us and for you I mean

[00:35:26] and finding your space there's no one size fits all. I mean I created this space because

[00:35:32] I was looking for it and I couldn't find it anywhere else this is why I created that.

[00:35:36] Obviously me and Volker have very different personalities and you know I think that sort of

[00:35:41] for you know want of blowing my own trumpet that's why the podcast works

[00:35:46] but you know they'll and again no disrespect to any of our guests but often you know

[00:35:52] Volker be like oh I found that one a struggle and I was like oh really I found that really

[00:35:55] interesting and then I'll be like oh you know I just couldn't get I just couldn't

[00:36:01] connect I didn't quite vibe and he's like oh no you know I really enjoyed that one I guess

[00:36:06] it is just that. You don't have to tell me you don't have to tell me which one I might

[00:36:11] bring it to the here you know you can sort it out yourselves later yeah well we all say

[00:36:19] we count the likes that we get for every podcast that we publish.

[00:36:24] Well now we're in a different topic right I think you know generally speaking I think

[00:36:28] every podcast is different right and you get different things out of every podcast I do

[00:36:32] anyway right so even if I don't like a topic or I don't understand the topic which has

[00:36:39] happened before as well you know you still get something out of it and you know as we say

[00:36:43] in therapy right it's not about me right we're doing this podcast for other people to get

[00:36:48] something out of it and to create awareness to start people to get you know to start thinking

[00:36:54] about it I mean because what I love about your solution I know we discussed that when

[00:36:59] when we met as well is if I say your solution your community right it's about this body mind

[00:37:04] connection right and you know looking at your feelings which men without generalization as you

[00:37:09] said right don't necessarily do but I just want to be careful that that's probably my biggest

[00:37:16] challenge because we talk emotions men already like fuck that I don't want that and it's

[00:37:20] important to mention that that idea of connecting with emotions understanding them better whatever

[00:37:28] it leads to power it leads to a lot of power and I think a lot of men think that first of

[00:37:34] all that emotions are weakness you know I had one guy that that said it and I keep repeating

[00:37:40] it because I thought when he said it I was like wow this is so beautiful he said

[00:37:43] I'm strong enough to be weak and for me that was like wow this is a beautiful way to say

[00:37:48] that because so many men hold the facade and hold the bullshit as if it is power

[00:37:53] there is the fake power that a lot of us are holding and I've done it for so many years

[00:37:59] and it still creeps in sometimes of acting as if I'm strong and so on when I'm actually my

[00:38:04] balls are shaking or I'm confused or I'm quite lost so there is this power this fear to go lean

[00:38:10] into the emotions because it's really scary what I'm saying is that by leaning into those emotions

[00:38:16] what happens is that there is no longer need to hold anything after that because you learn

[00:38:22] what real power means real power grounded power one that is open and is is is being felt like

[00:38:33] real freedom I'm saying this because if we just say emotions and men it's like no not interested

[00:38:39] and still I think there is a lot to unfold I do believe that men don't and then this is

[00:38:46] a generalization don't lean into into emotions as much as women do and you know I hold my

[00:38:52] hand up right I definitely don't not as emotional as you know what my wife is and

[00:38:57] then don't mean emotional in terms of oh fall you know something like that I mean you

[00:39:01] talking about your real wife or your podcast wife one podcast wife

[00:39:08] it's you know I don't feel I'm not as empathetic as my wife would be right and you know

[00:39:16] I think I'm more you know emotional intelligent more pathetic than a lot of other blogs

[00:39:22] but to your point I probably wouldn't even you know I probably wouldn't show it either

[00:39:28] right because if we look at society and you mentioned that earlier as well it's not something

[00:39:32] we do right a man and I deliberately say it like that the man doesn't go out and go like

[00:39:39] oh I'm weak and I cry you know that's what I do you know that's that's not what we do

[00:39:45] because we we were brought up like that and but but it's dangerous also to say that

[00:39:51] emotional connect to being to being weak and and and because that's all what I mean sorry I

[00:39:57] don't like lecture emotions you weak I never meant to see it like that so yeah no but the thing is

[00:40:02] that a lot of men would hear this and that's what they think this is why I keep flagging

[00:40:07] like we need to be very careful with how we speak and this is probably my biggest challenge

[00:40:13] because to communicate this kind of work to the world where still there is stigma there

[00:40:17] is a lot of bullshit there's a lot of stuff going on it's hard and so it's it's really

[00:40:23] important the language is tricky it's it is very very tricky yeah sorry just want to mention that

[00:40:30] no no I'm glad you correct me that anyway I'm looking at the time I don't believe that was

[00:40:36] I was 40 minutes already it has uh has flown by and yeah I mean we haven't covered some of

[00:40:45] the things that I was hoping to talk about so I mean you know as Volker said we are at

[00:40:51] the end Jaron so um I mean if people are interested in your community how do they find you

[00:40:58] and you know you've obviously talked a lot about uh social media so do you have any social media

[00:41:03] channels yeah it's an interesting one yeah well there is the website on being men.com

[00:41:08] there is also now we have a youtube channel and an instagram account yeah that we just

[00:41:13] opened recently but but again but for me the the videos that we're posting and what we're

[00:41:18] posting there is is not about showing you look how to do it it's more about let's discover who

[00:41:24] you are and for men who are interested in that it's it can be a great space if you want to get

[00:41:30] in touch it would be great to hear from you and if we can help even better brilliant well

[00:41:35] thanks very much for well for coming along and supporting our live event

[00:41:39] you're also coming on taking time out today thanks thanks yellow thanks for the opportunity guys

[00:41:48] thanks for listening to this week's episode feel free to reach out to Volker or David via our

[00:41:53] website www.manupdown.com or podcast at manupdown.com with any feedback or to let us know what

[00:42:01] topics you'd like us to cover in the future hear you again soon