Overcoming Addiction

[00:00:05] Welcome to the Man Up, Man Down podcast, presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey. We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends. You can find us online at www.manupdown.com Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:34] Welcome to another episode of Man Up, Man Down. Today we welcome Alex Clapp and Alex has got an incredible story, overcome a lot of adversity. Basically he's a business owner and entrepreneur and five years ago he suddenly lost the sight in one of his eyes and then the sight in his other eye started to deteriorate as well. Unsurprisingly Alex's mental health took a huge dip during this time and he started using alcohol to mask how he was feeling and how to cope

[00:01:02] because he found it impossible to open up to anyone about how he was feeling. Over the following two to three years he became addicted to alcohol, drinking heavily from morning till night and everything in his life started to fall apart including his marriage, his relationship with his son and with others around him. Eventually he hit rock bottom and in the end Alex did five months of rehab and has now been sober for over a year. He has rebuilt the relationship with his son and he has started a new business venture called Clarity Group

[00:01:30] which hosts alcohol-free corporate events and alcohol-free nights across the northwest of England. Alex is 100% open and honest about his story because he just wants to help other people. So yeah, thanks for joining us Alex. As I say, a lot there to sort of get through and talk about. But I mean, you know, to start with thanks for coming on the podcast. You know, I sort of glossed over a few points there.

[00:01:59] Yeah, honestly, totally my pleasure. And yeah, you know, I'm a complete open book because I've got a passion for taking my own personal journey and trying to just help others or allow others to realise that there is another way. There is another way and that we have choices to make along the way no matter what's going on in our lives. And sometimes it's the harder choice.

[00:02:27] The harder choice is to do something about it or to face that real fear and to be able to, you know, face what is you perceive to be the scariest thing. But however, a thought or a feeling don't kill you. What I was doing, you know, ultimately would have seen me dead. And, you know, I think, I mean, you said I was just over a year, but I'm actually, I've just got to the stage of two years clean and sober now.

[00:02:58] Congratulations. Congratulations. And I had two sober birthday parties because it was two years. I decided to have, I couldn't just have one. I had two. So I had one in London and one in Liverpool. And we had two big sober parties with about 100 people in London and about 75 people in Liverpool,

[00:03:21] all dancing, singing, doing mocktail making, gameplay, live DJs. It was amazing. You know, it was amazing. And I guess the even more powerful thing is the authentic connection, the authentic connection that you get because we put 100 people in a room and you give them five drinks each. You never know what you're going to get.

[00:03:47] You know, some people drink suit and some people don't drink suit, don't suit drinking. Some people get angry when they drink, get sad when they drink, get, you know, it just changes everybody in different ways because it's a mind-awing substance. And especially if we've got tough things or challenges going on on our own individual journeys,

[00:04:12] you know, to then pour mind-awing substances on top of those challenges and testing times, you know, it can be like pouring petrol on a fire, can't it? Yeah. So, I mean, you sort of mentioned that, well, you know, the problem with your eye was the catalyst. So, I mean, were you a heavy drinker before that?

[00:04:40] Or, you know, would you describe yourself as a standard drinker? I would say, I've got to be honest, I grew up in an era, I'm nearly 45, I grew up in an era of the English culture, the booze culture, you know, that basically as a young guy, you drank as much as you could, as quickly as you could. And the person who was the most drunk was the funniest. And, you know, I used to drink to probably blackout, you know, not remember stuff,

[00:05:09] you know, I used to, you know, but that was going back, you know, I'm trying to think how old I am, 45, so going back, you know, 30 years ago or something, you know, that was probably, you know, what all people did back then, because it was, there wasn't the knowledge about what alcohol did, there wasn't the awareness around, you know, looking after ourselves, there wasn't, you know, everything available as easily,

[00:05:36] well, there wasn't mobile phones, there wasn't, you know, anything like that back, you know, when I probably started drinking. So it was a different era. And yeah, so, but then obviously with work and different things, all my work relationships and connections and business, you know, we were all centered around alcohol. So I guess I would describe myself as a work hard, play hard, you know, type of drinker.

[00:06:04] And it was never, you know, to where I couldn't not have a drink, you know, but it was, if I drank, I drank probably quite heavily. I would describe it as, and then obviously, as soon as, you know, I started having the problems with my eyes, it was typical man, I guess, you know, run away from facing any emotions, any feelings,

[00:06:32] and shut down and, you know, went into what, how I grew up. I grew up in an era of, that I perceived that you were a stronger guy or a stronger man. If you didn't cry, you were stronger. You had to be strong for everybody else. You never talked about your emotions or your feelings. And you just used to pretend that you were okay to the outside world and, you know, the old English culture of stiff upper lip and get on with it.

[00:07:02] And that was, you know, my belief. I'd never seen my dad cry. I'd never spoke about my emotions. I'd never been asked probably about my emotions because from my era, it then goes back to my parents' era, you know, before that. And the culture has changed massively, you know, massively for the better, I have to say.

[00:07:27] But yeah, you know, I pretended to the outside world and to everybody that I was fine, used to make a joke of it, but inside I was a scared little boy who was petrified and didn't know what to do, but it was easier to run away from facing those feelings and those emotions than it was, or I perceived it to be, to actually face up to what was going on.

[00:07:59] And as I said probably before, you know, a thought or a feeling won't kill you. And the place that I ended up at, I was really, really to the point where I didn't care if I was here anymore or not. And that's, you know, a really dark place to be. It is a really dark place to be when nothing is enough for you to, you know, my son, my family, my friends, you know, nothing was enough for me.

[00:08:28] You know, I just literally had reached that point where, yeah, just not a good place. So you mentioned your eyes. So just to clarify, so your eyes came through the alcohol consumption or because you also mentioned because, you know, you didn't, you know, connect to your feelings and emotions. So, no, so my eyes, my eyes is an unknown cause. It's still unknown.

[00:08:55] So basically I started having these problems probably about six years ago now. And I've been to London, Liverpool, Manchester. I've been all over the UK. I've had multiple injections in both eyes. I've had dye tests, MRI, gene tests. I had seven doctors queue up to look into my eyes in London because I'm in an anomaly and they don't know.

[00:09:24] I'm not in any book. I'm not in any book. So there's no, so I'm different because there's no, there's no diagnosis. I've got a bit of everything that's going on. It's not just one thing or another thing. And I had some laser stuff and all sorts. And I've lost the sight, 95% sight in my left eye now.

[00:09:50] And about two and a half years ago, my right eye started really deteriorating as well. And I had to start beginning to prepare myself for going blind effectively. I started to have software installed on my computer. I started to have voice recognition put on my phone. And I was, you know, beginning to sort of almost try and start to imagine what life was going to be like, not being able to see.

[00:10:22] And that was a really scary place. That was a really scary place. Having had, you know, vision for 40 odd years to then having lost the sight in one eye to then not being able to read messages, emails, texts, you know, not being able to see, you know, people, you know, see what food I was eating. It was, you know, it was, it was a horrendous place.

[00:10:50] But obviously I chose to not speak about how I was feeling, pretend to all my family, my friends, everybody else that I was absolutely fine. Used to make a joke of it and, you know, sit at home on my own self-medicating with alcohol because that was the easier option.

[00:11:11] It was easier to, or so I thought, so I thought it was easier to run away from my emotions and my feelings than it was to face them. And the alcohol just numbed the pain. But the problem was, the more that I used alcohol to numb the pain, the more I needed alcohol, became dependent. And then it was, got worse.

[00:11:38] And like anybody who's ever looked into addiction knows that it's a progressive illness. And sadly, once you go past the point of no return, it progressive, it is progressive and it gets worse. Yeah. And, you know, I reached the stage where I was drinking bottles of vodka from first ring in the morning, you know, a bottle of vodka throughout the day, three, four bottles of wine. You know, it was just continuous.

[00:12:08] It was just continuous. Just a glass of vodka, to be honest, you know, I don't like that stuff. Whole bottle. Wine, I get it, but that's kind of my advice. But, so you were seriously addicted, right? That is serious. Yeah, no, I was like, I was like, literally I would drink a bottle. I was drinking vodka straight from a bottle.

[00:12:35] And I was drinking that from first ring when I got up in the morning. And I would continually be sipping on that all throughout the day as well as drinking. Yeah. While I was properly addicted. Like, were you? And were you still running your own, running a business at this point? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well. Yeah. How do you diminish that?

[00:13:01] Well, see, my tolerance, this, and I don't think it's a good thing, to be honest. I don't think it's a good thing. Well, I guess it just perfectly brings in that phrase functioning, doesn't it? Yeah, functioning. And I've always been quite able to do a lot and cope with a lot.

[00:13:19] But, you know, even for me, what I was drinking and what I was still being able to do was probably ridiculous, if I'm honest. Sorry, what was your business at the time? So I've had a law firm for the last 25 years. Right. And I've still got that. I've still got my law firm, which will be 25 years old in January.

[00:13:48] But then, obviously, when I came out of my final rehab, because I did go to three different rehabs over a course of 18 months. And when I came out of my final rehab, that's when I said, I want to do something different and I want to try and help other people. And that's when I set up the Clarity Group with my business partner, Baird.

[00:14:16] Because he'd had his own personal journey. I'd had my own personal journey. And just both of us have got a passion for trying to help other people. And I have a pure belief that telling somebody what to do does not work. Does not work at all. If somebody told me what to do when I was in my struggles, my struggles, my hard time, I wouldn't have listened.

[00:14:44] But what we're trying to do is give people a choice and show people that you've got a choice of what nights you can have. But you've also got a choice of how much you can connect and how much you can speak to others and how much you can realise that you're not on your own. And also how much you can realise that there is always somebody else.

[00:15:09] That whatever situation somebody is going through, there is always somebody else who's walked in your shoes or who knows how it feels. And if people are willing to be vulnerable enough and actually hold their hands up and go, Yeah, I felt that. And I've been through that. And it's really tough. And yeah, it's crap.

[00:15:37] You know, but ultimately, over time, it can get better. You know, and I had to do this and I tried this. And, you know, I'm not saying there's one size fits all. But knowing that there's other people in the world that have walked in similar paths or similar scenarios to you as an individual is really powerful. And it does help. And I've seen that in some of the...

[00:16:07] I'll be honest. Some of the ideas came from NA, AA, CA. You know, because it's one person having the strength to be vulnerable and actually hold their hands up. It actually encourages and gives people the freedom of space to actually realise it's OK to say, I'm not OK. So, I mean, you sort of...

[00:16:36] A couple of points I just wanted to sort of bring you back to. You mentioned about, you know, you've got to make the decision. And, you know, you sort of also said that you went to several rehabs before it clicked. I don't know if that's the right phrase because, you know, personally, I think, well, they all kind of opened doors to the next one. You know, so...

[00:17:02] But anyway, so was that your decision each time or, you know, were people telling you how, you know, and yeah, what sort of was that process? Every single time I got sent. I got sent. My first time I got sent. And I had a 28-day detox.

[00:17:27] And obviously, I proved to myself that I wasn't an alcoholic and that I've just had 28 days of not drinking. So I haven't got a problem. And I came back and, you know, soon enough I was back, you know, drinking and, you know, it progressed again.

[00:17:49] But in terms of the choice, when I first came into recovery just over two years ago, I tried helping everybody else. And I tried fixing everybody else and doing it for other people. And it was so hard realising that I can't change anybody else. I can only look after myself.

[00:18:15] And I've lost probably 10 friends over the last two years to addiction who died. Because obviously, I've been... I spent five months in total in various different rehabs. So I've met probably a couple of hundred people. And then obviously my networks have got bigger in terms of recovery. And I've probably lost 10 people. And it's not just those 10 people I've lost.

[00:18:44] It's all the impacts on their families, their children, the ripple effect that goes out. It's so massive. And I would love to put my arms around everybody and try and fix them. But I can't do that. As somebody who is struggling, mental health, addiction, whatever it is, I have to do it myself. And I had to make the changes.

[00:19:11] And I had to put into effect the positive step-by-step things that I was doing and changing. And nobody else could do that for me. And that's part of what I'm trying to do with clarity is to give people a choice to be able to come to something different.

[00:19:34] To be able to realise what it's like to be around a big boozy alcohol night or what it's like to be around an alcohol-free night. And then you've got a choice as to what suits you and what works for you. And obviously for people in recovery, you know, they know it's a complete and utter safe space where they can come to.

[00:19:57] And they're not going to have other people drinking and they're not going to have any temptation, you know, because everybody there is on the same level. And everybody there is, during that period, at least, abstaining from any mind or substance. You mentioned about the culture that you grew up in.

[00:20:19] I think, you know, even, you know, coming from Germany, I don't think at least the culture I grew up in wasn't too dissimilar in terms of, you know, I started drinking probably when I was 15. I don't know when I had my first blackout, 16, 17, maybe, you know. You never forget your first blackout. No, you don't, do you? And yeah, you know, men don't cry, right?

[00:20:48] Men don't talk, men don't talk about feelings foremost, right? Because we are tough, right? We are cool kids. It's actually been interesting. So, you know, as part of my therapy degree, I have to go to therapy. And I cover lots of interesting things here that I'm happy to share, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't bring it up. But I went over to the States when I was 15, 16 as an exchange student. And the culture there was also very much drinking.

[00:21:16] But it was almost, because you're not allowed to drink until you're 21. It was like, oh, it's Friday night. You know, we got two days to get drunk, smoke weed, you know, get shit-faced. And I discussed that with my therapist the other day. And he asked me, and I'm still working through that, why are you bringing that up? So there's clearly something about, you know, binge drinking in there that, you know, doesn't resonate well with me. And I still like, you know, my bottle of wine.

[00:21:46] Or maybe not quite a bottle of wine at night. But I think they're so used to it, right? And so where I want to lead to, ultimately, if I had known, or if I had been on my radar, if I say 20 years ago, to go to therapy, I probably would have benefited from having a session or two. And I'm not an alcoholic. Like, I'm not, you know, I'm certain I'm not.

[00:22:12] But, you know, I mean, what I'm trying to say is, you know, I would have benefited from, you know, maybe talking that through with someone, right? Why do you not talk about your feeling? You know, why do you drink until you have a blackout? Rather than finding it out years later, you know, why I was doing it. You know, same, I used to chain smoke. And if I say that helped, I mean, did you ever go to therapy, you know, or did that ever cross your mind?

[00:22:38] Because I think we're now living in a society where we were like, hey, why don't you talk to a therapist, right? It's totally normal to have a therapist. You have a coach. You have a therapist. You have a mother, right? It's like things you just have. But I assume, and tell us about it, when you were rock bottom, therapy didn't cross your mind, did it? No, I, yeah, I was like, no, no, I don't need that. I, you know, I can't, I'm not having that. I'm not doing that. I'm like, I can, I can cope.

[00:23:08] I can cope with anything that life throws at me and I've got to be the strong one. And, you know, I just need to head down and crack on with it. And perversely, my son's going to be 20 this month. And he's like the new Gen Z. So he, me and him, we speak about every single emotion that he has. You know, he tells me when he's feeling insecure. He tells me when he's feeling sad.

[00:23:36] You know, we chat stuff through and we have that open communication. And he's also, he plays a lot of rugby. And, but then he's this new generation where he can go to the pub and have one pint. And that's enough one night. You know, he'll go out and get drunk with all his mates another night. But, you know, I think back to when I was 19, 20, and I couldn't have gone to the pub and just had one pint. Yeah.

[00:24:06] What's wrong with you? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. If you only have one, what on earth are you doing? Yeah. Two legs, you have to have two pints. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, but it's, I don't know. I mean, I digress a little bit because I think back to, it comes from my parents' parents here and the parents before that. And, you know, nobody used to speak about emotions.

[00:24:34] Nobody used to speak about feelings. And, you know, it's only just beginning to change. So for our era and, you know, probably, you know, before that, and probably a little bit after us, there's still a lot, you know, where people don't, you know, open up and speak openly about how they actually feel and aren't able to say it's okay not to be okay.

[00:25:02] And, you know, still worry about what, if they're going to be judged or if somebody else is, what are they going to think? And it's like, well, listen, there's enough people, there's enough amazing people in this world. And there's enough people trying to help each other and lead by example that it's okay not to be okay. And it's fully okay to 100% be yourself.

[00:25:27] And, you know, you should never question, you know, how you feel or what you think, because that's you individually. So, yeah, I'm just, you know, I would love, you know, to be able to wave a magic wand and let everybody realise that anybody and everybody is enough just as they are. No matter what anyone else thinks, no matter what anyone else does,

[00:25:54] you know, it's all about ourselves and getting comfortable in your own mind, in your own, you know, skin. And that's another thing, I was never fully confident in my own skin. I probably didn't even truly know who I was, because I probably lived my life on the perception as to what I thought other people wanted. Hello, folks, it's Volker here.

[00:26:22] I hope you enjoy this week's episode. As you know, I coach executives, whether that is for leadership skills or sales leadership skills or working as a therapist, too, there are few ways I can help you to get unstuck, improve your work-life balance or become a better version of yourself. So you will be more productive and have more time for your family. Whatever it is, you can join my client list of people

[00:26:49] from General Electric, Pepsi, DHL, Boots and many others. Book a free exploratory call via my website, www.opnat.us. That's O-B-N-A-T dot U-S. Now back to the show. So when, I assume you had therapy when you, yeah, you did that?

[00:27:17] Five months, five months solid of therapy. So yeah, sorry, were you in a rehab centre, like a residential rehab centre for five months? Yeah. Yeah. First, I did a month the first time, three months the second time, and a month the final time. Yeah. Right. Okay. So it's five in total. Yeah. Five months of stepping outside of the real world

[00:27:46] and having deep dives into myself and, you know, and I'll be honest, I always say it, but if every single person in the world could stop, and I'm not necessarily saying rehab, you know, but spend 28 days stopping and actually working on themselves, the world would be a better place. The world would 100% be a better place.

[00:28:15] But it's the old perception that only the fruitcakes have therapy or, you know, and it is, it's that old perception. It's so, so old, you know, the views of it. It was like, it's like the old perception of an alcoholic or an addict, you know, it doesn't discriminate between who you are or what you've got.

[00:28:44] It's, it's an illness and it's a disease ultimately. And, you know, people become dependent for various different reasons and because of various different things. And a lot of it is just running away. A lot of it is just running away from, you know, being able to face, you know, emotions or hard times or thoughts or feelings. And that's the sad bit for me. Anyway.

[00:29:14] You, you sort of said about, well, again, sort of several things, touch points I want to sort of mention, but that thing, well, I think, you know, there is a lot of misunderstanding about addiction. And, you know, I think to put it back to like brass tacks, you know, the simplest thing is like, well, why don't you just stop? And, you know, and it's like, well, actually, and it's something you said earlier about,

[00:29:44] you know, the steps that you put in place. And, you know, and that's the thing. It's like, well, depending on how dependent, you know, you physically are on alcohol, you know, it's a physical detox, but it's almost like, yeah, once you're sober, then you've got to deal with all the stuff you've been running away from as, as, you know, you so eloquently put it. So, I mean, what, you know, what were those steps? And, and, and do you, I mean,

[00:30:12] you obviously mentioned NA, CA and AA. I mean, it is a lot of your process. And with the clarity group, is that kind of 12 steps based? Or, you know, have you kind of taken your own approach and how on, on how to, well, you know, cause it's not getting sober, it's staying sober, isn't it? At the end of the day. And yeah, to be fair. So I guess when I first came into recovery,

[00:30:42] I was, Oh my God, what am I going to do? I have got my own law firm. I've always socialized and done a lot of business around boozy lunches and everything. And I was like worried about what everyone else was going to think and all the rest of it. And I made a very hard decision to tell the world. So I thought, do you know what? I am going to take the power away from all of this and I'm going to tell the world.

[00:31:11] So I wrote and emailed all of my clients, all of the people who I've dealt with for the last 20 odd years. I told all my friends, all my family, I was open. I literally threw it out there and basically said to the whole world, I have had a lot of struggles. I'm an alcoholic and I'm now in recovery. And I'm telling you all because I think it's important that you know, and I would like everybody to know.

[00:31:40] And I got amazing, amazing support, amazing, just amazing. I'll be honest. It was just really touching because I was so vulnerable because I actually held my hands up and basically didn't hide away from it and didn't actually, I moved house and I went and knocked on my new name. And I said, hi, I'm Alex and I'm in recovery.

[00:32:11] But, but do you know what? It sounds bizarre, but then they're not going to invite me around for a drink. Are they? You know, I was about to say, what did they say? Right. Congratulations. They said, congratulations. And it was dead. It was dead. Nice. Because they actually said to me, congratulations. That's amazing. Um, and everybody who I've told has been like, wow, that's really cool. Well done. Um, well done because, you know,

[00:32:42] everybody used to have that. And I'll call it with somebody on a park bench. And yeah, anybody who has actually, and probably I'll be honest by me being so open and speaking about it. A lot of my clients came back to me and said, I had a family member. I've got a cousin, I've got a brother. I've got a sister. I've got this, I've got that. And I'm sure they'd never told anybody. They'd never told anybody because they'd all felt shame around it.

[00:33:12] And it gave them a safe space to actually come back and tell me, you know, and be open. So my vulnerability actually gave others a safe space to be vulnerable and to come back and share. Um, and it was, it, it's very powerful. Um, but did it take a lot of kahunas to do it? Yeah, it did. Did I battle with it for a little bit thinking, Oh my God, what have I lose all my clients? What have I lose all my work? What,

[00:33:41] what's everybody going to think? You know, I had that internal battle and I, and I just said to myself, stop it, stop it, you know, just do it. Let's do it. Let's basically be vulnerable. And, you know, whatever's meant to be, will be, um, and I just did it. I took a step, took a leap of faith and just did it. And it was the best thing I ever did because then, you know, effectively, you know,

[00:34:08] I was accountable to everybody because if somebody saw me then in the pub, they'd be telling other people, if somebody saw me going into the supermarket, buying drink, or, you know, if somebody saw me, you know, doing what I shouldn't be doing, which is going back to, you know, drinking, you know, I would always be accountable to somebody because somebody would find out. Um, what you said about the neighbors though. I mean, that, that sort of perfectly, again,

[00:34:37] sums it up in that, you know, it, it is a neighborly thing to be like, welcome to the neighborhood. Here's a bottle of wine. And, you know, and again, it's like, oh, well, it's neighborly, but again, it's like, you wouldn't, you wouldn't go, here's a grandma Coke. You know, it, it, you know, it is this like, yeah, substance that, you know, is, is it, is permeates all parts of society. Um, but I mean, as you know,

[00:35:06] as we mentioned before we started recording, I, you know, I, well, I sort of joined one year, no beer and event, like, I started off like, I'm going to try and do three months without it. Cause I've done like dry January's and sit in my bed, my birthday's in February, you know, so as soon as he hit February, it's like, right. Woo hoo. But, um, I, and it was my 40th birthday and all my friends, 40th birthdays as well during that period. Um, but I remember my neighbor, you know,

[00:35:36] who I'd like, who I used to go around and, you know, there'd be times where I'd be like, Oh, I bet I'll pop around now. Cause I bet joy and Tony having a glass of wine, you know, it's like, if I go around now, I'll get a glass of wine. Um, so, and I remember like, you know, and I'd, I'd already done, well, yeah, I've, I've not been drinking for, you know, months and months and months. And Tony's like, still like, Oh, I've got you some beers for your birthday. You know, I'm like,

[00:36:05] I'm not drinking. Oh, you've got to have a beer on your birthday. But it, you know, it is that, yeah, you know, it is almost like, well, actually when you put it out, you cut off any sort of awkwardness or, um, yeah, you know, because it, it's, I don't know, I guess it, you know, it's sort of like, Oh, why, why doesn't he want my wine? You know, I don't know.

[00:36:32] It just causes a strange amount of awkwardness. Yeah. And I, I continue to do it. So I'll go to, uh, lunches and, you know, events and people offer me wine at the table. And I, I always just say, no, thank you. I'm in recovery. I don't drink. Um, because then the wait is not going to ask me five times. Yeah. They're not going to carry on coming and going, would you like some more wine? And I'm having to go every time. No, no, no.

[00:37:00] I just go make a point of just saying, and that's something I choose to do because I'm comfortable doing it. And I'm not saying everybody, you know, it's what's right for everybody else. Um, but I guess to your other point, do I do a lot of 12 steps personally? No, I don't. Um, I've tried different meetings. Um, I've do some online stuff still. Um,

[00:37:27] but I don't do the 12 steps and clarity isn't 12 steps. Um, I do what's right for me and what, what basically works for me. And obviously, obviously with clarity, we do a lot of alcohol free events and I still like to have a great time just because I don't drink. You know, I like to have a lot of fun. I like to go out, socialize, but I like to do it in a safe environment for me.

[00:37:55] And I like to do it around authentic people that haven't had alcohol or drugs. And, you know, that you can have a decent conversation with, that you can have a dance with, with no judgment. Um, because what you find about all our nights is if somebody walks in with pink hair, nobody even flicks and blinks an eyelid, you know, but then if you go to a pub and somebody walks in with pink hair,

[00:38:23] everybody turns around because they've had four or five pints. And then they start going, Oh look, they've got pink hair. And it's like, well, so what if they've got pink hair? If that's what they want, let them, if they're happy, what's it got to do with you? You know, if I, I could literally go to one of our nights dressed up in fancy dress and nobody would say anything, you know, and it's, and that's the lovely thing. And people might give me some, um, take the mickey a little bit, but it'd be fun. It'd be fun.

[00:38:53] It wouldn't be. Um, yeah, so I, clarity, clarity helps me, you know, trying to help other people and still being vulnerable helps me. But I am always, always aware that my illness will never go away. It was the night before my two year, anniversary for being sober. And in my brain,

[00:39:20] along came my little devil tapping me on the shoulder going two years tomorrow, two years tomorrow. Reckon you're right now. Reckon you'll be all right now. Reckon you can just have a few, you know, I reckon, um, you know, imagine, imagine we could go and have like a couple, see how we get on. And then, you know, basically then the next week we might be able to have a few more. Nobody's going to know, you know, nobody's going to know. Um, and I was like, wow, this is like,

[00:39:50] so, um, eye opening to realize and, and to acknowledge why so many people relapse. Why so many people relapse? Because it's the one illness in that. I don't know any other where it tells you you haven't got it. And that's the battle mentally. It finds any reasoning or any excuse. Just like when I first went into rehab,

[00:40:18] it told me that because I'd done 28 days, I'm not an alcoholic. I've, I've, you know, done 28 days of abstinence. Um, so I'm not an alcoholic, so it's okay. And it's like, bizarre. I find it bizarre. Um, but it's a challenge for me as well. And I do like a challenge. Um, and it's a challenge of learning how to,

[00:40:50] deal with your brain, you know, deal with those thoughts and the feelings that come, you know, because I don't, I can't choose what thoughts or feelings come into my brain. The only thing I can do is choose what I do with them. It's interesting what you say there, because, um, I mean, is there still a fear that you think you might relapse? I wouldn't say a fear. I wouldn't say a fear because I can only, you know, and look, I can never say forever, you know, I can never say forever, but, um,

[00:41:21] all I can do is take it step by step. And at the moment, you know, I acknowledge when these thoughts and feelings come and I laugh at them, you know, and I'm totally honest. Do I still, you know, have those thoughts and feelings? Yeah, I do. Does it diminish over time? Yeah, it does. But then it can hit you like, um, like a wet fish in the face. You know, you can be having a totally normal day.

[00:41:50] And then all of a sudden it, it, a massive craving hits you and you go, whoa, where did that come from? That is absolutely bizarre. Um, you know, it's weird. It's weird. Um, but that's addiction. That's, you know, being an addict. Um, and that's part of it, you know, just like if I had an allergy, I'm sure it's part of that. Or just like if I was, I had another illness,

[00:42:20] everything has parts of it, good, bad, and indifferent. That doesn't, so I just accept that it's all part of what I can't control. The only thing I can control is what I choose to do with it. Um, well, um, yeah, it is capturing that thought, acknowledging it and yeah, moving on. But, yeah, it's, it's, I still fancy cigarettes.

[00:42:51] Yeah, but it's, it's what it is, right? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. You can't, you can't, you can't force that to go away. Yeah. And again, I guess it just shows like how sort of almost powerful the brain is that, you know, and it can sort of almost be like a smell or, you know, walking past the pub in London. And, you know, and, and sort of seeing people stood outside after work and, you know, it's kind of like,

[00:43:22] well, yeah, you know, and as I say, just the smell of the beer or something can trigger that. Well, that monkey, I guess. But, yeah. On that note, are you drinking alcohol-free beer? Or does it have too much alcohol in there? No, no. So, I actually do drink alcohol-free beer. Okay. I drink the zero, zero stuff. Okay. And again, there's different things for different people. Some people, a lot of people in recovery say, no,

[00:43:51] you shouldn't. But, I do what's right for me. Yeah. I do, I do what's comfortable and what I'm comfortable with. And that is all I say to anybody else. You know, if you think it's going to be triggering for you, don't do it. If you're comfortable and you're totally fine because it's got zero alcohol in it and you just want something that feels like you can associate, you know, then that's okay as well. You know,

[00:44:20] it's whatever's right for individuals. Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to sit and drink 10 bottles of it a night or something like that because I think that would be, you know, not, not the best idea in the world, but I will have a couple if I go out and I'm socializing. That's, I mean, and again, that's the irony is, you know, if you drink several alcohol free beers, you're like, Oh, I'm quite full up now. Whereas if you don't lie and you're like, yeah, that, that doesn't feel right.

[00:44:50] I'm going to stop. Whereas if it's alcohol, it's like, Oh yeah. You know, that that's fine. Yeah. It's. You know what? You make, you make a great point because normally if I have two or three of them, I go, that's enough now. Whereas if I always drink, I go back so many years when I was drinking, that wouldn't have been enough at all. It was like bizarre, isn't it? Cause I like alcohol free beer, but yeah, there's, there's only that many you can drink.

[00:45:16] My problem is there's not good enough alcohol free red wine yet. So that's my advice. Exactly. So once, once that happens, I think I can easily give up alcohol. It's just, it's just the red wine. But anyway, Alex, we unfortunately have to come to an end. This was, was really, really good. Thanks for sharing your story. Thanks for coming on. If people want to find out more about your alcohol free parties, your events and what you do, where, where should they reach out?

[00:45:46] So yeah, so clarity group is, is, is our web website. So it's clarity double E for T total clarity group. And then we've got club clarity. We're on Instagram, Facebook, all the relevant bits. We're doing events all across the UK and potentially going to Ibiza in 2025. Um, it's going to be interesting. Yeah. Well, I want,

[00:46:15] I'll be honest. I've got a plan to go all over the world with inside the next five to 10 years. And that's my mission to basically have clarity all over the world and to just be giving people a choice. I'm not telling anybody what to do and I'm not telling anybody not to drink. I am just giving you a choice. Um, and I had a doctor who drinks come to an event last week and she turned around,

[00:46:44] she turned around to me and she said, I've always found social events a little bit, um, awkward and uncomfortable. And I think I've just found my, um, my family of how I would want to go to my events in the future. And this is from somebody who drinks. So that was like really powerful and really inspiring for me. Um, because people are their authentic selves and it,

[00:47:11] the bond that you actually get from the nights are actually a totally different bond, a totally different vibe to all being drunk. I can see that. I can, I can totally see that. Um, I'm not there yet, but you know, you don't have to be, but you don't have to be either. And that's, that's, you know, if we get invited out to Ibiza, you know, we could try it out and, uh, and see where we go from there. I can totally see how it works. Seriously. I mean, I,

[00:47:40] I don't need, you know, alcohol to have fun. You know, I mean, I always think I do, but you know, I'm not a fun person anyway. So, but, Oh, bless him. You have, you have your fun moments, Volker. Crazy animal, you. I know. Yeah. Brilliant, Alex. Thank you so much. Uh, thanks. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very, very much. Thanks for listening to this week's episode.

[00:48:10] Feel free to reach out to Volker or David via our website, www.manupdown.com or podcast at manupdown.com with any feedback or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future. Hear you again soon.