Prostate Cancer

[00:00:05] Welcome to the Man Up, Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:19] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:34] Welcome to another episode of Man Up, Man Down.

[00:00:37] We're delighted to welcome back Ian Sonders who has been with us in season two and he's back in season three.

[00:00:45] Last time we talked about his journey into midlife, his jump into the Bavarian Lake, the Starnbergersie

[00:00:51] and his book, 365 Ways to Have a Good Day, which I started reading it but I haven't finished it yet.

[00:00:59] If I say I'm probably 180 days in or something like that.

[00:01:04] It's a nice book actually, I have it on my bedside table just to read it every now and then before I go to bed.

[00:01:10] Anyway, digressing already.

[00:01:13] Ian runs his own venture across storytelling, coaching and creativity, and work life design.

[00:01:20] He's a resolutely independent, curious, open-minded and rebel-spirited.

[00:01:26] And that's led to a pretty unconventional career.

[00:01:30] It's also given me a unique perspective on what makes people and organisations tick.

[00:01:35] Today we want to speak about his personal experience of being diagnosed with prostate cancer.

[00:01:40] So that happened after the last episode and a story we unfortunately hear too many about.

[00:01:46] Too many of those stories we hear recently, we hear too much about cancer.

[00:01:50] For my liking I do.

[00:01:52] And that's, I guess it's becoming middle-aged, right?

[00:01:58] More and more people get diagnosed with it.

[00:02:00] So we're always, if I say very thankful for people like Ian to come forward and be open to talk about it.

[00:02:08] Because it might affect prostate cancer.

[00:02:11] And I see the poster literally in the gym every day.

[00:02:13] It will affect one in eight men, I think, or one in nine.

[00:02:16] So the focus isn't necessarily the illness itself, but also on how we live with cancer, about uncertainty,

[00:02:22] and how to keep up hope and utilise curiosity as a superpower.

[00:02:27] So enough about me Ian. Good to have you back.

[00:02:30] Good to be back again with you both David and Volker.

[00:02:33] Yeah, it was October when we recorded our last conversation.

[00:02:36] And it was October after we recorded our last conversation that I was diagnosed with prostate cancer.

[00:02:44] The end of October 2023. We're recording this in May.

[00:02:48] Yeah, I had surgery for the prostate cancer in December and in theory, you know, that should have kind of cured me.

[00:02:55] But unfortunately, the blood tests have shown that I still have cancerous cells in my pelvis.

[00:03:03] So right now I am waiting for the phone to ring with a...

[00:03:08] I've turned it off for now, don't worry.

[00:03:09] Waiting for the phone to ring with an appointment for a scan and then there'll be further treatment to come.

[00:03:17] So inevitably, I mean, it's kind of...

[00:03:20] The cancer journey for anyone is a bit of a roller coaster.

[00:03:23] I guess I'd kind of been through this process and hoped that that would be it and I'd be cancer free.

[00:03:32] So I suppose it became a bit of a blow a month or so ago from now when I learned you're not cancer free.

[00:03:41] So yeah, time to deal with that challenge.

[00:03:47] It's funny how you kind of frame it when you see a friend and I live in a neighborhood here in Leonsea

[00:03:51] when you walk out your front door and you'll bump into quite a few people.

[00:03:55] So people kind of say, how are you?

[00:03:57] And you go, yeah I'm really good thanks.

[00:04:01] Well I'm okay thanks and I have cancer and it's kind of holding those two things together.

[00:04:08] That's kind of like where I'm at right now in my mindset.

[00:04:12] It's like holding those two things together because I should say, you know, cancer is this big word, isn't it?

[00:04:18] And people have... people are terminally ill, people are feeling awful.

[00:04:23] You know, I have zero physical symptoms of anything.

[00:04:29] But I have cancer in me.

[00:04:32] So I'm very grateful for the fact that I'm physically fine and I think it just shows you, you know, it's all about the mindset.

[00:04:40] And some days are better than others, I'll be honest and I'm sure we'll talk about this as we go forward.

[00:04:46] Yeah, I mean it's interesting what you're saying that you don't have any symptoms, right?

[00:04:52] So you don't feel that the cancer is there.

[00:04:56] And I mean before we went live, I was just saying, right, is prostate cancer terminal?

[00:05:02] Because you hear all these stories where people say, you know, people died with prostate cancer, right?

[00:05:07] Or a lot of people have an enlarged... say a lot of people, a lot of men, right?

[00:05:12] Women usually excluded from that have an enlarged prostate, right?

[00:05:16] Yes. So they live with it or, you know, they might be cancerous, but they don't die of prostate cancer,

[00:05:22] but then related illnesses or if it starts spreading.

[00:05:27] And I just... well, once you did the intro, I just got some facts and figures here.

[00:05:33] And there's more than 52,000 men diagnosed with prostate cancer every year.

[00:05:38] So that's about 140... 144 men every day.

[00:05:44] And every 45 minutes, one man dies from prostate cancer.

[00:05:49] So really, you know, that's 12,000 a year. So it can be terminal.

[00:05:52] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:05:53] I guess it depends off of which age you get it as well, right?

[00:05:57] Yeah, I mean I feel just kind of anecdotally from going into urology department in my local hospital,

[00:06:03] when you're queuing in the waiting room, you know, most people...

[00:06:05] I'm generalising that most people are in their 60s or 70s.

[00:06:10] You know, I think having it in 155, I think that is quite young.

[00:06:14] But I mean obviously it comes in the territory once you're over 50, you tend to know quite a few people.

[00:06:20] And I think it's a very interesting one, isn't it?

[00:06:22] So I have zero symptoms.

[00:06:25] I had zero symptoms, but I was getting a regular blood test, the PSA blood test.

[00:06:31] And that was what revealed...

[00:06:33] Oh, the levels are going up, shooting up quite high on the blood test.

[00:06:37] So that's what led into all the investigations.

[00:06:39] But what I found really interesting is as I've talked about this on Instagram and LinkedIn,

[00:06:46] at the end of last year, it's funny, you know, some people are aware of this PSA test.

[00:06:52] I mean men about our age, you know, men about the listenership of men up men down.

[00:06:56] And some men are aware of this PSA test and some people have never heard of it.

[00:07:00] And what's been good about me talking about it and hopefully us having this conversation now,

[00:07:05] people listening to this, you know, if you're 40s or 50s and you live in the UK

[00:07:13] and have you had a PSA blood test and if you haven't, you know, just through your GP surgery,

[00:07:21] ask for one. It's an annual blood test and it's not the definitive indicator of prostate cancer.

[00:07:27] You can have a really high PSA score and not have cancer, according to my uologist.

[00:07:32] And you could have a low PSA score and still have cancer, but it's the best test we have.

[00:07:36] You know, ask and go and get one because one of the really good things that I've heard back from people

[00:07:43] and it's now about...must be about 12 or 13 people, I should make a note of them.

[00:07:47] Of people in my network, professional contacts, mates haven't seen for a long time.

[00:07:52] We've gone...I had no idea about this thing. I've gone and got a PSA test.

[00:07:56] I'm clear. I'm like, fantastic. So I think there is some maybe ignorance around it.

[00:08:01] And also, I know you've talked about this topic. You know, you've covered cancer in previous episodes

[00:08:07] and you've talked a lot about mental health on these episodes.

[00:08:10] And we have talked about that theme. I think we talked about it last time.

[00:08:16] I've heard other guests talk about it with you, about, you know, the taboo sometimes.

[00:08:21] I'm not wanting to talk about difficult stuff and maybe not wanting to go and see the doctor or seek help

[00:08:28] when you've got an ailment. So I think having awareness of prostate cancer, which is a very common cancer,

[00:08:35] as you just said from the statue, pulled up Volcker and, you know, taking action.

[00:08:41] It's good to shine a light on that, right? Yeah. I think it's super important to do that.

[00:08:48] To be overly honest, I've never heard of a PSA test before. So I just had to Google it.

[00:08:52] So the NHS actually writes about prostate cancer, the PSA test in greatest detail.

[00:08:58] They also then move on to DRE. So I'll let you Google that.

[00:09:02] I should even hold that, which is part of a lot of, you know, if I say better humor actually on Instagram.

[00:09:09] Because I think, you know, it's just something we need to talk about, right?

[00:09:12] Because that's as a glance sits, right? So yeah, yeah. A digital examination of your bum.

[00:09:18] Yeah. It's up to what I often do around the same time.

[00:09:24] And again, that's, you know, not a huge indicator or something, but it's, yeah.

[00:09:30] That and the blood test can dictate whether you might need further investigation.

[00:09:34] Yeah. Which would then be a biopsy. You see, I'm reading up about it.

[00:09:39] No, no, that's why it's important to talk about it, right?

[00:09:43] As you say, right? You don't want people to come and, you know, as you say, right?

[00:09:49] You say, oh, I have cancer and then people go like, oh shit, right?

[00:09:52] And then you can explain further. And as I said before we went live as well.

[00:09:55] So I spoke to a friend of mine this morning who just kind of came back to work now after being diagnosed with leukemia.

[00:10:03] And, you know, and it's, if I say it's everywhere, right?

[00:10:06] I know a few people and some of the cancers can be healed or can be treated and, you know, some, you know, can be eliminated and some can't.

[00:10:16] Yes. So for what you say, there's a chance for you to still be cancer free with maybe another operation.

[00:10:23] Yeah, no. Well, yeah, it won't be an operation because so what I've had is I've had a, I've had a, I've had what's called a radical prostate to me, which is my prostate removed.

[00:10:33] That was something I elected to do because I was given a choice.

[00:10:37] I mean, it's not, it's always nice to have a choice, but it was a bit overwhelming.

[00:10:41] Do you want radiotherapy or do you want surgery? So I chose the surgery.

[00:10:44] So there's nothing, there's nothing more they can remove from me.

[00:10:47] So the next course of events and the cancer that's remaining would need to be radiotherapy to kind of zap it, right?

[00:10:54] So I've actually had the prostate, the prostate removed.

[00:10:57] And that comes with kind of risks and side effects, but I must say, you know, touch wood.

[00:11:01] I've been very fortunate in, it hasn't really affected my life in any detrimental way.

[00:11:09] But it's just really, it just feels different when you go for a wee when you haven't got a prostate because it's like, my surgeon said to me, do you feel like a teenager?

[00:11:21] And I said, what do you mean?

[00:11:22] He said, you know, you kind of, when you, when you weed as a kind of huge kind of jet of we like a teenager might do and when you get older, it tends to be slightly different.

[00:11:31] So it's kind of, yeah, it's a different experience because you, there's been a bit of, what's the word reengineering done down there.

[00:11:39] So yeah.

[00:11:40] Oh, it's interesting.

[00:11:41] I had no idea.

[00:11:44] No, if I say no, do I want to know?

[00:11:46] Do I know that?

[00:11:48] No, no, no.

[00:11:50] Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:52] It's, you know, I always say, right, it's, you know, I can get quite squeamish when people go about, you know, but what I'm saying is, you know, it's hopefully one of those things he never found out.

[00:12:05] Hi folks.

[00:12:06] It's Volker here.

[00:12:07] I hope you enjoy the speaks episode.

[00:12:10] As you know, I coach executives, whether that is for leadership skills or for sales coaching or working as a therapist.

[00:12:18] There are a few ways I can help you to get unstuck, improve your work life balance and become a better version of yourself so you will be more productive and have more time for your family.

[00:12:29] Whatever it is you want to achieve, you can join my client list of people from General Electric, DHL or Pepsi.

[00:12:39] Book a free exploratory call via my website www.opna.us.

[00:12:45] That's all B N A T dot US.

[00:12:49] Now back to the show.

[00:12:52] You know, this was prostate what I've heard before and again, it's probably an old wives tale as well.

[00:12:58] Right?

[00:12:58] You don't need to prostate.

[00:13:00] Right?

[00:13:00] And I'm like, surely you do as a wife.

[00:13:03] Why would it be there?

[00:13:04] Yeah, not sure.

[00:13:05] And I'm sure it is needed.

[00:13:06] But but you can live without it.

[00:13:09] I think isn't it interesting to be diagnosed with something, but you don't feel ill.

[00:13:15] And I think that that that is the challenge.

[00:13:19] And I think the biggest challenge for me right now and it'll be very interesting once this once this episode goes out after the summer because I'll be further forward on the journey.

[00:13:27] But right here right now, I have a lot of uncertainty hanging over me.

[00:13:32] And I don't quite know what the next few months are going to bring in terms of treatment, in terms of side effects, in terms of cancer developing.

[00:13:41] And I think in a way that's the hardest bit.

[00:13:46] But I think that's the difficult bit and I think that's the weight that the weight of that the weight of that uncertainty and the weight of having cancer still have it.

[00:13:58] You know, although I've been through all this journey, but I still have it.

[00:14:02] That I think that's the that's the hardest bit.

[00:14:06] And I think I'm learning a lot.

[00:14:07] I mean, it's funny isn't it?

[00:14:08] Last time we were here, we were talking about my book, you know how to have a good day and it's kind of like, well, you know that cliche like, you know, you, you, you write the book you want to read.

[00:14:20] Or perhaps you host the podcast that you want to listen to right.

[00:14:23] We think our own ethics.

[00:14:24] And it's kind of like, actually a lot of the themes that we talked about last time.

[00:14:30] Noticing the world around us paying attention finding joy in the everyday all those things are like, shit, you know, they're like more, more relevant than ever for how I'm living this time.

[00:14:46] Because I could think, shit, I've got cancer.

[00:14:50] I feel God, how am I going to deal with it?

[00:14:52] I can't work on my mental health is plummeted.

[00:14:57] And I could have that scenario.

[00:14:59] Unfortunately, fortunately, I have been able to dig deep and have a positive optimistic mindset and like, get on get on with work happy talking about it all that.

[00:15:10] And I know that I know that makes a huge difference because let me be honest.

[00:15:16] When I got the diagnosis in October, my mental health really plummeted to such a point that I just thought I wasn't even able to work for at least kind of 10 days.

[00:15:27] And you know, I went and sought help from the doctor and put me on some tablets for a little while.

[00:15:32] But I mean, I was just like catastrophizing result.

[00:15:34] You know, I was all over the mess.

[00:15:35] I was like, we were meant to go on a family holiday at the end of October to Porto with the children.

[00:15:41] We had to cancel that.

[00:15:42] I mean, I want to be open and be honest about it.

[00:15:47] I don't want to kind of, you know, here's the end.

[00:15:49] You know, it's all very positive and a positive mindset.

[00:15:51] Yes, I am right now.

[00:15:52] But in this journey, it's been grim.

[00:15:55] And there've been times when my mental health really was rock bottom.

[00:15:59] So how I mean, you sort of mentioned, well, you know, like how you had to cancel a holiday.

[00:16:10] But I mean, how have you sort of addressed it with your children?

[00:16:15] Have you tried to sort of be upbeat with them?

[00:16:21] You know, I mean, you sort of talked about having, you know, extreme mental lows.

[00:16:25] I mean, how did you sort of navigate or, you know, what was it like interacting with your family in that sort of time?

[00:16:38] Yes. Good question, David.

[00:16:40] I think, you know, when I came out of hospital and I'd had the surgery and I was, I'd had abdominal keyhole surgery.

[00:16:49] And, you know, for quite a few weeks, I was kind of limping around, took me a while to recover my physical strength.

[00:16:56] Then I think that my relationship with my children was kind of like, well, dad's just coming out of hospital and he's poorly.

[00:17:02] And they wrote me a lovely card and I was in bed for a while and was lying on the sofa and they kind of bought me a really cool candle to light and all the rest of it.

[00:17:10] And I think that was very tangible because like he's been in hospital and he's home now.

[00:17:15] I think it's much harder, isn't it? When you have something that's invisible.

[00:17:21] And I mean that both with my prostate cancer now, David, but also my mental health because mental health is invisible, isn't it?

[00:17:26] Yeah, I'm going to break my leg.

[00:17:28] I think it's much harder and I think all I tried to do during that period was be as open as I could with my teenage children.

[00:17:36] Because they're old enough to get it, 16 and 18.

[00:17:39] They're not 7 and 9 which might have been different for me to say, I'm struggling and I'm feeling really low, you know.

[00:17:47] And if I was feeling a bit teary, I would let that be okay.

[00:17:52] But it is harder when you've got something that's invisible because my children are seeing me going out for a run.

[00:18:02] They're seeing me normal, right?

[00:18:05] But then they've also got this narrative that there's an uncertainty because dad still has cancer.

[00:18:09] That's quite, I think it goes back to the duality of what I said earlier when I see a friend and say, I'm good thanks and I have cancer.

[00:18:15] I think it's hard for people around me.

[00:18:17] I mean, my wife and boys are amazing support.

[00:18:21] I think it's hard for them because they don't always know what's going through my head and it's invisible.

[00:18:27] And I think it speaks to what you both have spoken about a lot on Man Up, Man Down, about mental health.

[00:18:32] It fills in a similar category.

[00:18:35] You don't know what's going on inside someone's head necessarily.

[00:18:39] So I think it was much easier for them to understand their dad's situation coming home from hospital, lying on the sofa versus kind of where I'm at now.

[00:18:52] Yeah.

[00:18:54] And are your parents still alive?

[00:18:56] Yeah, they're still alive, yeah.

[00:18:57] And I mean how have they sort of reacted to it?

[00:19:02] Yeah, they've been supportive and my dad had prostate cancer when he was 71.

[00:19:07] He's now 86 and he's alive and well and very fit.

[00:19:09] Very fit 86 year old walks and swims.

[00:19:14] So yeah, I mean they've been very supportive, yeah.

[00:19:16] I mean do you look at that and think, well dad survived?

[00:19:20] I'm going to be fine or is it?

[00:19:23] I've got it a lot earlier than he did.

[00:19:26] That's a red flag.

[00:19:27] Yeah, they have this thing with prostate cancer where you're given this, I don't know why it's called this but people can search it up.

[00:19:34] It's called your Gleason score.

[00:19:36] So that's like your severity of it.

[00:19:38] So my Gleason score and after they do the biopsy they can tell from the cells, they can tell how cancerous the cells are.

[00:19:45] So my Gleason score was higher than my father's so I had a more aggressive form of cancer than him.

[00:19:51] I think I don't sit here right now.

[00:19:53] I don't believe this cancer is going to kill me.

[00:19:55] I don't think I necessarily look it through the lens of all my dads alive and well.

[00:19:59] I think I just know enough about prostate cancer that hasn't spread to the bones, hasn't spread all throughout my body.

[00:20:07] So I don't think it's going to kill me and obviously they've aware there's cancer there and there's something that's going to be done about it.

[00:20:13] I mean, I'm sort of one of our previous guests.

[00:20:19] He sort of mentioned that he almost has this, oh well it's only prostate cancer.

[00:20:28] And I think there's almost again a bit of a duality there.

[00:20:32] And especially if you're not sort of feeling any symptoms, I mean is that almost like a sort of emotions that you go through.

[00:20:44] That you know it's like oh well it's only prostate cancer when obviously cancer's cancer.

[00:20:52] Yeah.

[00:20:52] Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

[00:20:57] I suppose all I think of David is that there's a whole rainbow of cancerous symptoms and people's stories with cancer and everything else.

[00:21:08] And I suppose you know I'm just one of those shades of colour on that rainbow.

[00:21:13] I don't necessarily look at it just through the prostate cancer lens but what I'm aware of is everyone's got their own cancer story.

[00:21:21] Everyone's got their own experiences. They might have lost a family member.

[00:21:24] I've got a good friend whose wife died of cancer and then you know people have got their own stories on prostate cancer.

[00:21:30] So some blokes I talked to go early on kind of went oh you'll be fine.

[00:21:36] Yeah, my dad's got prostate cancer and he just needs monitoring that's all so you'll be fine.

[00:21:40] And I'm kind of like, I know mine isn't the type that you can just monitor because you can have prostate cancer

[00:21:45] and you don't have any biopsy whatever they just monitor it.

[00:21:48] And obviously people are being very well and very well intentioned to kind of reassure me.

[00:21:53] But because everyone's got their story, they go oh it's fine.

[00:21:58] Yeah, you just have the surgery and then you'll be fine.

[00:22:01] You know, because everyone's got their own story.

[00:22:04] We're all different and I think that's what I'm kind of learning

[00:22:06] and those people saying those things to me are very well intentioned

[00:22:10] because they're trying to make me feel better from their own experiences

[00:22:12] but there's so many different types and people who have had prostate cancer

[00:22:16] who are listening to this will kind of be going well hang on Ian, that's totally different to my experience.

[00:22:20] I think that's what we need to respect.

[00:22:22] Everyone's got their own story and everyone's got their own experience

[00:22:26] and when we try to help others by saying my dad had cancer and he's fine

[00:22:31] you know you just have to acknowledge that the person you're talking to with

[00:22:36] who's got cancer may have a slightly different experience.

[00:22:38] That's something I've learned, I think.

[00:22:40] I've always tried to be empathetic and understand people positioned

[00:22:44] but I think I'll be more cautious about kind of overlaying their experience with Dory I know

[00:22:52] because even though I might be doing it out trying to make them feel better

[00:22:55] it can be unhelpful.

[00:22:59] Yeah, I guess SCC right?

[00:23:01] I mean I think the problem is if we zoom out a little bit, right?

[00:23:06] We've tried with cancer right?

[00:23:08] Cancer has always been almost like a death sentence right?

[00:23:13] And as I just read as well I think we cut prostate cancer in half

[00:23:18] like not to prostrate itself but the amount of people that die of it

[00:23:23] and then so have we done with breast cancer and a lot of other cancers

[00:23:27] as we progress but it's still an illness that we can't control

[00:23:31] so I don't know what the stats are right?

[00:23:34] Let's say 50% of people die but cancer is just

[00:23:37] and I'm not a medical professional here it's just this disclaimer here

[00:23:42] but you know it could mean anything right?

[00:23:45] Cancer in you is different to cancer in me or it can be different.

[00:23:49] Absolutely.

[00:23:50] It's a different aggression, skin cancer is different to prostate cancer

[00:23:56] bladder cancer to pancreas cancer right?

[00:23:59] Yeah, they're all so different and we have this one word

[00:24:01] and I think that's where it's quite shocking when you sit in a room

[00:24:08] with someone who gives you the news you've got cancer

[00:24:11] because they've only got one word for it.

[00:24:14] Exactly, and the reality to your point Volker is

[00:24:17] and that's where it's quite shocking that Zoe and I walked out of that room

[00:24:23] at South End Hospital and couldn't help but feel like we'd been punched in the gut

[00:24:28] because we've just been told I'm very sorry to say

[00:24:32] yeah you've got cancer like fuck.

[00:24:36] So yeah, so because it comes with so much weight

[00:24:40] it comes with so much weight.

[00:24:42] But it doesn't need to be from what you say.

[00:24:44] It doesn't necessarily need to be no you kind of need to almost kind of nuance it

[00:24:48] in a way we need to develop some other words for it

[00:24:50] and some other language for it.

[00:24:51] See, you mentioned the Gleason scale so is that for all cancer?

[00:24:57] No I believe it's just prostate cancer.

[00:25:00] Which again, you know, is alright.

[00:25:02] So that's not even necessarily a helpful measurement.

[00:25:08] Man up man down is sponsored by well doing.

[00:25:11] There's someone who has seen a counsellor for a number of years

[00:25:13] I think their approach is great.

[00:25:15] They want you to find the mental health professional who is right for you.

[00:25:18] You can filter your search to highlight therapists with expertise where you need it

[00:25:22] or you can pay to use their personalised matching service.

[00:25:26] The people who run well doing are experts in mental wellbeing

[00:25:28] and they also have loads of posts and interviews

[00:25:30] to keep your mental health in good shape.

[00:25:33] Take a look at welldoing.org

[00:25:36] But I think what I've learned is kind of like

[00:25:39] I think it is interesting as the other people's reaction to it.

[00:25:46] We're all about you.

[00:25:47] It's fine that for some people it's private and personal

[00:25:50] and they don't want to talk about it.

[00:25:53] But I do think it's interesting how people respond.

[00:25:56] I think I have learned a lot and I'm not judging anyone

[00:25:59] but I have learned a lot in this journey

[00:26:01] and so is my wife about friendship.

[00:26:06] It's been really interesting how friends have reacted to this

[00:26:12] and it's been really interesting the kind of relationship

[00:26:15] between long term friends who maybe I've known for like three decades.

[00:26:20] Or longer.

[00:26:21] And then people that I've only met like maybe met in the neighbourhood

[00:26:24] or met through work in the last like say 2-5 years

[00:26:27] or even less and how some of those people have shown up.

[00:26:33] The new friends have shown up in a way perhaps other friends haven't

[00:26:36] and I'm not judging them.

[00:26:38] I'm not keeping a spreadsheet of you know whatever

[00:26:40] but I think it is interesting.

[00:26:42] And I don't know if you're familiar with Nick Cave's story

[00:26:46] and Nick Cave the musician who's written this book

[00:26:49] called Faith, Hope and Carnage with the music journalist

[00:26:52] or sorry with the journalist Sean O'Hagan

[00:26:54] and now I'm not comparing my situation to Nick Cave's at all.

[00:26:57] Nick Cave if you don't know the story.

[00:26:59] Two of his sons have died.

[00:27:01] When the time of writing the book one of his sons have died.

[00:27:04] It's an incredibly powerful book.

[00:27:06] I'd recommend it for anyone to read anyway.

[00:27:09] It's created from 40 hours of conversation between Nick and Sean.

[00:27:13] I took a lot out of it for what I'm going through

[00:27:16] and also been listening to some podcasts with Nick Cave.

[00:27:20] He was on the Rick Rubin podcast

[00:27:22] and he told Rick that you know when a tragedy like that happened for him

[00:27:28] and as I say his is unfathomable.

[00:27:30] I'm not comparing my situation with him at all

[00:27:31] but he made an interesting observation about who shows up for you

[00:27:36] and then who shows up and who kind of stays

[00:27:41] and who's continued to be there for you.

[00:27:43] I think sometimes that's the thing that's the difficult

[00:27:45] and maybe it's kind of a taboo.

[00:27:47] So around the time of me talking about the diagnosis

[00:27:49] a lot of people reached out to me

[00:27:51] and sent me incredible love and affection on messages

[00:27:53] and voicemails and spoke to me

[00:27:55] but it's like maybe then it's kind of like

[00:27:58] oh well we haven't really heard from you for a while

[00:28:00] not sure what's going on

[00:28:01] and then you just kind of don't hear from people

[00:28:02] and maybe that's because cancer can be quite triggering

[00:28:08] people find it difficult

[00:28:09] it has fascinated me

[00:28:12] maybe it's just kind of not realising what you're actually going through

[00:28:16] but it is interesting

[00:28:19] and I think that's why I'm keen to kind of be really open about it

[00:28:22] because it might just help other people understand

[00:28:25] if they've got people in their network

[00:28:27] in their friendship circle, mates and blokes they know

[00:28:30] you know, they click.

[00:28:32] I mean that I think you know often

[00:28:35] that can be for a number of reasons

[00:28:39] you know it's sort of

[00:28:42] if you've gone through that experience yourself

[00:28:45] or in your family

[00:28:48] you're probably more inclined

[00:28:53] to I guess be more sensitive

[00:28:57] but I mean I got a couple of anecdotes

[00:29:01] that I don't know might just be self-serving

[00:29:05] or by put some context around it

[00:29:08] so like one of my best friends growing up

[00:29:11] his mum died from cancer

[00:29:14] and I remember I must have been about 15, 16

[00:29:19] so not worldly wise but not a kid

[00:29:23] and I remember walking up to the shops and I saw her

[00:29:27] and you know she had her head in the scarf from the chemo

[00:29:30] and I was just like what do I say

[00:29:33] do I go and have a chat and not mention it

[00:29:37] do I say I'm really sorry to hear

[00:29:39] you know and this is someone that I used to have sleepovers at

[00:29:43] spent a lot of time

[00:29:45] and in the end I didn't say anything

[00:29:47] I just sort of scurried past

[00:29:49] because she was talking to somebody else

[00:29:51] and enough to say that's probably one of the

[00:29:53] biggest learning experiences

[00:29:56] I won't necessarily say regrets in my life

[00:29:58] then I've got a friend who's been fighting cancer

[00:30:04] for a long time

[00:30:06] and you know he's sort of gone through experimental treatment

[00:30:10] he's not really got much left to remove

[00:30:14] and similar sort of thing

[00:30:16] there's times where I'm like I should reach out to him

[00:30:19] I haven't seen him on Facebook for a while

[00:30:22] and I mean he has posted quite recently

[00:30:25] but I mean and so there was another girl that I went to school with

[00:30:28] the sort of you know I was still in touch with him on Facebook

[00:30:31] but she'd always be one of the first people

[00:30:34] to wish me happy birthday

[00:30:36] even like when you know that notification comes up

[00:30:40] and she died a couple of years ago

[00:30:43] you know just before Christmas

[00:30:45] and I really sort of felt it

[00:30:48] you know it's like God I haven't seen her in 30 years

[00:30:51] but you know I'm missing her on my birthday

[00:30:55] so I've had sort of messaged my other friends

[00:30:59] and I was like she passed away

[00:31:02] I would have liked to have said

[00:31:04] oh you know you always make my birthday

[00:31:06] but you know I messaged him and I was like

[00:31:08] this is why I'm saying it because of this experience

[00:31:11] but I was like I just want to thank you

[00:31:13] for your friendship over the years

[00:31:16] and yeah you know he's still battling

[00:31:19] but yeah you know and it's like well I know that one day

[00:31:22] there's going to be that post from his family

[00:31:25] or you know but you know and it's like well

[00:31:29] you know are you interfering

[00:31:31] you know and I think also there's that thing

[00:31:34] of always probably inundated with messages

[00:31:37] constantly and you know it's the

[00:31:40] sort of the phrase or diffusion of responsibility

[00:31:44] but you know it's almost like the more people

[00:31:47] that are involved in a situation

[00:31:50] the less likely someone is to react

[00:31:53] because you're like oh someone else

[00:31:54] and I guess if you can't see

[00:31:57] you know sort of what's going on

[00:31:59] you make some very good points David

[00:32:01] and look I put my hands up I'm sure

[00:32:03] you know I'm not being critical of any friends

[00:32:08] and I think I probably

[00:32:10] hadn't necessarily looked through this lens before

[00:32:13] you know until you're in this boat

[00:32:15] and I think it's just been

[00:32:17] I think it's just been interesting

[00:32:19] I think it's just been illuminating

[00:32:23] and you know that's kind of

[00:32:26] that's kind of my comment on it

[00:32:28] but I think you know there is the opportunity

[00:32:30] of going through this to kind of like

[00:32:34] rethink and revalue those things

[00:32:36] like you're talking about

[00:32:38] valuing that message from the woman

[00:32:40] who was an old friend of yours

[00:32:41] and I think

[00:32:43] it won't be too cheesy about it

[00:32:45] but I think there is an opportunity isn't there

[00:32:47] of going through something like this

[00:32:49] of it changing you

[00:32:51] and changing your outlook for the good

[00:32:53] and recognizing how fragile life is

[00:32:56] we all knew that already

[00:32:58] but I'm going to wake up, call on it

[00:33:00] and also to live life

[00:33:03] with a bit more intention and attention

[00:33:06] and to show gratitude for those around us

[00:33:08] so I mean I think that's what I'm keen to do

[00:33:10] as I navigate this

[00:33:12] to realize the opportunity for change

[00:33:17] in how I observe and interact with the world around me

[00:33:21] knowing how precarious life can be

[00:33:27] I mean it's precarious anyway right

[00:33:29] I could you know go in

[00:33:31] drunk driver could knock me over or whatever

[00:33:34] you know precarious anyway

[00:33:35] but I think that to emerge with a heightened sense of

[00:33:41] you might be familiar with this kind of post-traumatic growth

[00:33:44] you know when you go through a trauma

[00:33:46] it's like this graph you know

[00:33:48] you hit a trauma

[00:33:51] then there's post-traumatic growth

[00:33:52] and I kind of think

[00:33:55] I've got post-traumatic clarity

[00:34:00] that's a good thing you know

[00:34:01] I've got post-traumatic clarity

[00:34:04] and I did a little video down at the front

[00:34:06] the other day which I put on Instagram

[00:34:08] you know like I feel like I'm looking at the world

[00:34:11] through new glasses

[00:34:12] I actually told the story of

[00:34:16] I actually told the story when I was a kid

[00:34:18] and I kept on crashing my bicycle

[00:34:20] when I was cycling to school

[00:34:22] I used to cycle into trees

[00:34:24] in the back of stationery vans

[00:34:26] I couldn't see the blackboard

[00:34:28] I went on a school trip to Israel

[00:34:30] when I was 14

[00:34:31] I walked into the side of a mountain

[00:34:33] had stitches

[00:34:34] and no one ever stepped around me

[00:34:37] maybe in these glasses

[00:34:38] and I tried on my mate

[00:34:40] when I was in the sixth form

[00:34:42] I tried on my mate's glasses

[00:34:44] thank God I had a mate who had glasses

[00:34:46] tried them on just for a laugh

[00:34:47] and then went everything was so clear

[00:34:50] and I laugh when I think about all that

[00:34:54] I might have been this amazing football player

[00:34:56] amazing all these subjects

[00:34:57] if I could see the ball and see the blackboards

[00:35:00] but anyway here I am

[00:35:01] and I was remembering that

[00:35:04] and I can remember that

[00:35:05] I think it was the summer cycle

[00:35:06] I can remember seeing all the green

[00:35:07] and all the grass in the school field

[00:35:09] but I kind of feel a bit like that's where I'm at now

[00:35:14] or even if it's not where I'm at

[00:35:15] it's an opportunity

[00:35:16] to look at the world through new glasses

[00:35:20] to really notice

[00:35:21] you know I was up

[00:35:23] must have been about a month ago now

[00:35:25] because I suppose we were over Blossom season

[00:35:27] but there was some wonderful

[00:35:28] pink blossom trees

[00:35:30] in Aldgate Square just when I was walking up

[00:35:32] to the tube station from Fenton Street Station

[00:35:34] and just stopped paying

[00:35:36] noticing all that

[00:35:37] and I think there are some positives

[00:35:40] that we can come out from a time like this

[00:35:42] about curiosity

[00:35:44] paying attention

[00:35:45] being in the moment

[00:35:47] knowing what matters and like to your point David

[00:35:50] valuing reaching out to those mates

[00:35:52] when you can

[00:35:54] to say what they mean to you

[00:35:56] those little notes

[00:35:57] so I'm very

[00:36:00] I'm very

[00:36:01] keen that I look at the upside

[00:36:04] and see what that

[00:36:05] side is

[00:36:07] opportunity for change in growth I guess

[00:36:10] I'm thinking

[00:36:11] what I say now but

[00:36:12] I want to say something about what you said earlier

[00:36:15] and we don't need to write that point

[00:36:17] again because what you just said is really interesting

[00:36:19] but

[00:36:21] I think the problem is people really do not know

[00:36:23] what to say right

[00:36:25] and it reminds me a little bit of the 80s

[00:36:27] and most of us in middle

[00:36:29] age are aware of the 80s

[00:36:32] you know when HIV

[00:36:33] was a big thing right and everyone died of HIV

[00:36:35] you kind of know

[00:36:36] or HIV that's

[00:36:39] this is not my opinion it's a gay disease

[00:36:41] right this is

[00:36:43] self inflicted

[00:36:45] so you could almost put a stamp on

[00:36:47] I mean look at Philadelphia as a movie

[00:36:50] brilliant movie

[00:36:52] with cancer

[00:36:53] we can't do that right

[00:36:55] we

[00:36:55] we don't know what to say

[00:36:58] you know we don't have

[00:36:59] a finger pointing exercise

[00:37:02] and as you said Ian I think

[00:37:05] everyone has their own

[00:37:06] story around cancer

[00:37:08] it's a little bit like

[00:37:11] everyone who smoked

[00:37:12] used to know someone

[00:37:14] who smoked all their life and died when they were 99

[00:37:16] but they didn't die of lung cancer

[00:37:19] and everyone

[00:37:20] knows someone with cancer right

[00:37:22] everyone has been affected somehow

[00:37:23] but it has you know

[00:37:25] and usually

[00:37:28] I'm paraphrasing a little bit

[00:37:30] prostate cancer is fine don't worry

[00:37:32] about it breast cancer is okay

[00:37:33] if you catch it early enough we just cut the breasts

[00:37:35] off and you'd be alright

[00:37:38] pre-creatic cancer is I think

[00:37:40] deadly right

[00:37:41] we all know they're from Steve Jobs right

[00:37:43] but I have no idea I'm not a medical professional

[00:37:45] we probably discover new drugs

[00:37:47] and we

[00:37:48] and I think we have to be careful

[00:37:50] don't be vulgar of being the armchair experts

[00:37:52] because we can easily

[00:37:53] in a world where we can google everything

[00:37:55] I think we have to be aware of being

[00:37:57] aware of being trying to be armchair experts

[00:38:01] exactly

[00:38:02] my reflection what you're saying is

[00:38:04] there is a taboo

[00:38:06] we don't know always what

[00:38:08] know what to say I must say David

[00:38:10] you're only 15 in that story

[00:38:12] about your friends

[00:38:14] mum I know you had a war relationship with her

[00:38:15] but I think when you're 15 that's hard

[00:38:17] to nuance what to say

[00:38:19] but yeah

[00:38:21] it's really interesting because in December

[00:38:23] so I got a flurry of messages

[00:38:25] because I didn't talk about it that openly

[00:38:27] in October because my mental health wasn't great

[00:38:29] but when I did talk about it

[00:38:30] I got some wonderful messages from people

[00:38:33] and one of the best messages I got

[00:38:35] was from someone and she said

[00:38:37] I don't know what to say

[00:38:39] and

[00:38:40] her name is Sharon

[00:38:43] and we've had a working relationship

[00:38:45] kind of work friends she lives in Bristol

[00:38:47] haven't seen her for a few years

[00:38:48] if I get a Bristol I'd look her up

[00:38:51] we might have a coffee or a walk

[00:38:53] someone I know for 10 years

[00:38:55] not a close friend but a good work contact

[00:38:57] I've just pulled up her email

[00:39:00] she said hi Ian

[00:39:01] just wanted to say how sorry I am

[00:39:03] to hear your real that's really rubbish news

[00:39:06] beyond that I don't really know what to say

[00:39:08] there was an Oscar in the Observer

[00:39:10] I think last week

[00:39:11] written by a woman with cancer

[00:39:13] on what not to say to people like her

[00:39:15] and it included everything

[00:39:17] and what I thought of saying

[00:39:18] love your story last week on everything you wrote

[00:39:21] while waiting for surgery

[00:39:22] hope the treatment goes well

[00:39:23] and that you have a lovely Christmas with your family

[00:39:25] love Sharon now hope Sharon didn't mind me

[00:39:28] reading it out

[00:39:29] but I love that

[00:39:31] because it's so honest

[00:39:34] it's saying I don't know what to say

[00:39:36] and all the things I was going to say

[00:39:37] I just read in the Observer you shouldn't say them

[00:39:39] but it was like

[00:39:40] it was genius because it was like

[00:39:42] it meant a lot to me

[00:39:44] and I mean maybe

[00:39:47] sometimes when we say to people

[00:39:51] I don't know what to say

[00:39:53] but you know I'm thinking of you

[00:39:55] like that is enough right

[00:39:58] you know

[00:40:01] because there isn't a magic

[00:40:02] war on the flag something to say

[00:40:04] like it's so fucking honest

[00:40:07] there was such

[00:40:08] an honesty in that simple

[00:40:11] email

[00:40:13] that it's touched me

[00:40:14] and you can feel it's touched me

[00:40:17] because I'm choking up

[00:40:20] but it's kind of like

[00:40:21] if you don't know what to say

[00:40:23] to people you can reach out and say

[00:40:25] I really don't know what to say

[00:40:26] but I'm thinking of you

[00:40:28] or here I am and you just show up

[00:40:30] in their whatsapps

[00:40:31] or you show up in your Facebook message

[00:40:33] and it's like fuck that is enough

[00:40:36] you know that is enough

[00:40:38] and I think there was a risk

[00:40:40] when I was talking earlier about my friendship things

[00:40:42] that I was kind of saying I'm

[00:40:43] as I know I caveated it with

[00:40:45] I don't want to judge

[00:40:48] everyone's got their own stories

[00:40:49] people might have lost a pair and they don't want to talk about it

[00:40:53] but if you do want to reach out

[00:40:54] to someone you're not sure what to say

[00:40:55] you could reach out to them and say

[00:40:56] I'm here thinking of you I don't know what to say

[00:40:58] and that is enough that's okay

[00:41:01] I think you're spot on

[00:41:03] with that actually because

[00:41:05] I think a lot of people are afraid

[00:41:06] of saying

[00:41:09] saying something that is wrong

[00:41:12] and

[00:41:13] that's okay right

[00:41:15] and then they

[00:41:16] often probably decide not to say anything

[00:41:19] and that's wrong

[00:41:22] and I think

[00:41:23] just saying you know

[00:41:24] I'm thinking of you I'm really sorry

[00:41:27] I don't know what to say

[00:41:29] as you just described

[00:41:31] right it's just nice to hear

[00:41:33] you bet absolutely

[00:41:35] I couldn't put it better myself

[00:41:36] and I think that is I hadn't realized that

[00:41:39] until I got through it I hadn't realized that till I

[00:41:41] articulated it you just reflected it

[00:41:43] and that's that's it in a nutshell

[00:41:44] that's it in a nutshell Volcker that's

[00:41:47] that's it that I think that's a great

[00:41:49] that's a great learning

[00:41:51] that's a great lesson isn't it

[00:41:53] it's human feels very human

[00:41:55] that's a human yeah once

[00:41:57] you know that we don't have all the answers

[00:41:59] not really sure to say

[00:42:01] that's less like it's like it's about

[00:42:03] kind of it's just about being

[00:42:05] human and like yeah like

[00:42:07] I mean but isn't

[00:42:09] that almost sort of part of the human

[00:42:11] condition that

[00:42:13] you know I'm playing devil's

[00:42:16] advocate that it's almost

[00:42:17] like I don't have control

[00:42:19] over this situation I'm powerless

[00:42:21] so therefore

[00:42:23] you know I think all you know so often

[00:42:25] you know people need to come

[00:42:27] to you with a solution

[00:42:29] and you know and it's like

[00:42:31] you know and it could be anything in life

[00:42:33] and it's like I'm not asking for a solution

[00:42:35] I just want to get something off my chest

[00:42:38] and you know it's almost

[00:42:40] well

[00:42:41] yeah I don't know what to say because

[00:42:43] I don't have a solution

[00:42:45] interesting

[00:42:47] I love that I heard

[00:42:49] on a podcast and I wish I could have tripped it

[00:42:51] but I can't remember who it was

[00:42:52] that said it was talking about teenage children

[00:42:55] but it's true for all of us

[00:42:56] and it was like when someone says something

[00:42:59] to you you've got to think

[00:43:00] do they want to be hugged

[00:43:03] helped or heard

[00:43:05] and I've taken

[00:43:07] that as a real takeaway that when my children

[00:43:09] voice things to me

[00:43:10] they don't necessarily want to be to be fixed

[00:43:14] to be helped

[00:43:15] they just want to be fucking

[00:43:17] heard

[00:43:18] and I think

[00:43:20] you know my wonderful mother who's very loving

[00:43:22] and very caring for me if I say

[00:43:24] oh yeah no how things being

[00:43:27] I'm really not sleeping at the moment

[00:43:28] she'll go right have you tried this thing

[00:43:31] here there's this medicine thing

[00:43:32] these drops you can have on your pillow

[00:43:34] and I'll get some of those for you

[00:43:35] and by the way acupuncture

[00:43:37] can you afford acupuncture I might be able to afford

[00:43:39] to pay for a session for you

[00:43:40] actually I'm not looking for solutions

[00:43:44] I just want to be heard

[00:43:45] or maybe I'll be hugged

[00:43:47] so I'll have to look up and you can put it in the show notes

[00:43:50] the hug heard or helped

[00:43:51] that was through the lens of

[00:43:54] being supportive to teenagers or kids

[00:43:56] when they got something to say

[00:43:58] but I think it's a really good point

[00:44:00] that maybe we're in a

[00:44:02] there's a mindset of

[00:44:04] okay how can I take the headache away

[00:44:06] how can I fix it what's the solution

[00:44:08] and as you said David

[00:44:09] if you think oh shit I haven't got a solution

[00:44:12] and maybe you don't say anything

[00:44:16] I think we almost need to do

[00:44:17] if you're up for it here let's

[00:44:19] let's continue that conversation

[00:44:21] let's have you back in six months time

[00:44:23] and have another conversation see how are you getting

[00:44:25] yeah bloody hell

[00:44:26] and what you learning

[00:44:29] yeah absolutely

[00:44:31] well I've enjoyed

[00:44:34] it's always good being on this podcast

[00:44:36] and I think it's an opportunity

[00:44:37] for me to kind of think out loud with

[00:44:39] two men

[00:44:42] we got similar stories

[00:44:43] maybe not on the cancer we got similar stories

[00:44:45] and I think I've learned a lot from

[00:44:47] what we've said in the last 45 minutes

[00:44:49] so thank you for that

[00:44:51] thank you

[00:44:52] for sharing your story

[00:44:55] it's a keep

[00:44:57] I shouldn't have written but it's a keep looking

[00:44:59] for cancer stats

[00:45:00] you know what I totally forgot and this is really bad

[00:45:04] the royal

[00:45:05] the royal household has been really struck

[00:45:07] by cancers as well right

[00:45:09] they've gone public with it which I think

[00:45:11] it's fantastic that they went public

[00:45:13] with it and talked about it

[00:45:14] and I think we just need to talk more about it

[00:45:17] and

[00:45:18] accept it there you know

[00:45:20] Kate is a lot younger than

[00:45:23] us right

[00:45:25] she went

[00:45:27] there until

[00:45:28] we think

[00:45:29] the fact that

[00:45:33] there's no discrimination

[00:45:34] it comes to cancer

[00:45:36] it can affect the poorest person

[00:45:38] or it can affect the king of England

[00:45:42] it's not a poorest person

[00:45:44] so if

[00:45:45] anyone wants to follow your story

[00:45:47] or you know hear more of your learnings

[00:45:50] Ian

[00:45:50] where can they find you

[00:45:52] thank you yeah I mean I'm kind of like

[00:45:54] sharing my story on

[00:45:56] Instagram

[00:45:57] I'm Ian Sanders one word

[00:45:59] and if people want more

[00:46:02] like a different slightly more

[00:46:04] slightly more kind of work life take

[00:46:06] on what I'm thinking about then

[00:46:07] please connect with me or follow me on

[00:46:09] LinkedIn Ian Sanders

[00:46:11] yeah you'll find me there as well

[00:46:13] okay and we'll obviously put those links in the show notes

[00:46:15] thank you take care

[00:46:17] yeah thank you

[00:46:21] thanks for listening to this week's episode

[00:46:24] feel free to reach out to

[00:46:25] Fulker or David via our website

[00:46:28] www.manupdown.com

[00:46:30] or podcast at manupdown.com

[00:46:32] with any feedback

[00:46:33] or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover

[00:46:35] in the future. Hear you again soon.