Suicide Prevention

[00:00:05] Welcome to the Man Up, Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're

[00:00:16] often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:20] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com.

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:37] Welcome to another episode of Man Up, Man Down.

[00:00:41] This is a very special episode as we're going to be publishing it.

[00:00:46] Well you're listening to it right now during Suicide Awareness Week.

[00:00:51] So we're delighted to have Rose Rokens here.

[00:00:54] Rose is part of an organisation called Start the Conversation.

[00:01:00] Basically she's on a mission to help people overcome their fears and find the words to

[00:01:04] talk about suicide because as she says suicide is everyone's business.

[00:01:09] For 20 plus years she has worked passionately to build hope through meaningful connections,

[00:01:14] one conversation at a time as a Samaritan, as a counsellor with young people and survivors of domestic

[00:01:20] abuse, as a youth worker and since 2015 as a Suicide Prevention Trainer.

[00:01:27] And Rose has personally equipped thousands of people around the world with the

[00:01:30] tools and confidence to have a compassionate courageous conversation that can save a life.

[00:01:36] She's also co-created the 90 minute session talking about suicide 10 tools,

[00:01:41] which is now in the curriculum at a number of UK medical schools.

[00:01:45] Well thanks very much for joining us Rose.

[00:01:48] I mean another reason why this is a special one is because we have already had this conversation

[00:01:52] but the internet went down it didn't record.

[00:01:56] So Rose has thankfully joined us at eight o'clock on a Monday morning which is why I'm probably

[00:02:04] stumbling over my words a bit more than usual.

[00:02:08] But just on a personal note, I went into sort of one of our well I live in a small village

[00:02:15] equidistant between two towns. I went into one of the towns on Friday and drove over a bridge

[00:02:22] and basically they're all flowers up and it was like oh god you know and then I saw on a Facebook

[00:02:28] group that yeah someone, a male had taken their life and you know I just highlights the fact that

[00:02:39] you know there's probably a tribute like that going up around every town in Britain,

[00:02:44] if not around the world, on far too regular a basis.

[00:02:49] Which is my incredibly upbeat way of saying thanks for coming on again Rose.

[00:02:56] So yeah obviously a very important topic to talk about.

[00:03:00] It is, yeah and it's a hard thing to see even if you didn't know that person you've seen that

[00:03:04] and you've remembered it and you're not going to forget that and you know for the people who

[00:03:08] knew that person well they will never, they will never forget.

[00:03:12] And so many of us have been touched by suicide and yeah you said those memorials, those flowers

[00:03:20] are going up yeah one person dies every 90 minutes in the UK by suicide.

[00:03:26] It's terrifying, it's too much, it's too much you know way too much when we know that most

[00:03:31] of these suicides we believe can be prevented and that's a horrible thing to hear after somebody's

[00:03:36] died but you know in a way it's hopeful because we know that people who are still alive

[00:03:40] they can in the most part get help and choose to stay alive but it needs recognising much sooner,

[00:03:52] hopefully before it gets to crisis point and that's what I teach, that's what I hope

[00:03:57] that people understand that courageous conversations can save lives.

[00:04:03] I mean as you say you know it's a very tricky conversation to have

[00:04:10] but you know you said there are warning signs.

[00:04:15] I mean can you sort of talk us through you know what, well yeah you know what are the

[00:04:23] warning signs and is there a grading system almost you know from certain words to I guess you know

[00:04:32] signs of self-harm. Just to be really clear I'm really conscious of trying not to say it's

[00:04:40] a tricky conversation to have or a difficult conversation because actually I think once you've

[00:04:44] got the tools it needn't be difficult or tricky and I'm worried that something I'm just very

[00:04:48] conscious of trying not to say because I think it can kind of put people off and go oh yes

[00:04:52] it's difficult and we shy away from difficult things. It's courageous for sure and it's compassionate

[00:04:56] and it's caring but I think with a few simple tools well I don't just think I know

[00:05:04] from conversations I've had when I've been thinking about suicide it's

[00:05:09] yeah it needn't be tricky it's not rocket science and yet we're so afraid of it so it

[00:05:15] happens so often. In terms of the signs is there a hierarchy I mean not really someone's either

[00:05:23] thinking about suicide or they're not right and so we just want to know if they are because

[00:05:26] we want them to not be alone with those thoughts but how do we know I mean a lot

[00:05:32] overriding it's just a trust is trusting your gut like we we I think we know when

[00:05:37] somebody is struggling but we often don't want to believe it we want to think well not my mate

[00:05:42] not them no that doesn't happen in my friendship circle or to my family

[00:05:46] so we're going to push it down we ignore it but I think the truth is we often know and too often

[00:05:52] sadly we know with hindsight after somebody's died and we think shit I think they were trying

[00:05:56] to tell me something and I wasn't listening but there are some real tangible things yeah to

[00:06:02] look out for I mean if your mate if your mate is withdrawing you know stop responding to what

[00:06:07] saps as often as they did or not just not showing up to the pub or you know just not

[00:06:12] not meeting you not showing up either online or in person drinking more than usual

[00:06:20] or sometimes perhaps almost like overcompensating because I think we're very good at what aren't

[00:06:25] we as humans about putting on a mask so that's all if I'm fine I'm fine I'm fine that insistence

[00:06:30] that someone's fine when like I said your gut is like I don't think you are mate you're telling

[00:06:35] me you are and I don't want to call you a liar but I don't want to trust you but I have to say

[00:06:40] like what you're saying doesn't seem to match what you're doing and and I want to know about that

[00:06:44] you know it's not trying to catch someone out it's not like you're with them right you're a

[00:06:49] team with them you're not so I think it's so it's any changes in behavior we're looking for

[00:06:54] shifts shifts and mood downwards shifting mood upwards as well sometimes people feel very calm

[00:06:59] when they've started to think about suicide because they can see an end to their pain

[00:07:05] and you'll notice sort of things guys you know what you're listening out for like I can't take it

[00:07:10] anymore I don't want to be here anymore I'm a burden on others you know these sorts of things would

[00:07:15] get you worried right if you'd hear somebody say that so it's really about taking notice and

[00:07:20] repeating it back to them hey I just heard you say that thing like that you're a burden

[00:07:24] you're not to me tell me what how tell me about that I want to know why you feel that

[00:07:31] um yeah there's a lot I mean there's a you know there's lists but you can't really

[00:07:36] memorize massive lists of like signs that's why overridingly it's just it's it's trusting your gut

[00:07:47] yeah because none of us want to go through that after we've lost somebody we never

[00:07:50] want to ever do that again do we no welcome for me again as well um thanks thanks thanks for coming

[00:08:02] back I I think what you just said it's it's you know you you say it's not a difficult conversation

[00:08:11] but as we all know men men are not the most talkative right when we go to the pub we don't go and go

[00:08:17] like oh how's the family you know how are you doing you know how are you feeling you

[00:08:23] know we go like oh how did your team play right um or the question to your wife asks you

[00:08:29] when you've seen a friend oh what did you you know how are they how's their wife how's this how's that

[00:08:34] you're like I don't know we didn't talk about that sorry Volker carry on yeah but but that's true

[00:08:40] right we we talk about you know did you see that woman over there right in the short dress right

[00:08:45] those as a banter we we see I never say things like that no I don't but you know just make it up

[00:08:54] so we you know we if I say and I don't want to stereotype you we're not as in touch with our

[00:09:01] feelings as much as maybe you know women are so how how can we notice it because you know if

[00:09:10] if we go out for you know and they use a typical example if we go out for a pint watch the footy

[00:09:15] um you know we we not talk about our feelings right and we we don't go up to our mates go like

[00:09:21] you look a bit sad is that because you know whoever is not winning right or

[00:09:26] you know I don't think someone someone goes like oh yeah I don't want to be here

[00:09:30] or why do you not want to be here because the team is not playing I mean we overplay it we we

[00:09:35] we almost afraid of going that level deep and go like you know what you just said this

[00:09:40] is that what do you mean and why are you saying that

[00:09:46] yeah so how do we overcome that how do you ever come it I guess sometimes it might be um you know

[00:09:53] say the example that you've just given you know you're in the pub with your mates and maybe maybe

[00:09:57] there's something that you think about maybe afterwards maybe in the moment you're just

[00:10:01] in the moment you're watching the game or whatever but it might be that especially having had conversations

[00:10:06] like this like we're having now or your listeners might go oh yeah no my awareness does just like

[00:10:11] heighten like I'm talking about radar blipping so maybe your radars go oh maybe that's something to

[00:10:18] just store and have a concern about the person maybe you get another blip on your radar and maybe

[00:10:22] it's not that maybe this conversation doesn't happen with them in the pub but maybe after you

[00:10:26] go home you you know you ping them a message and say I like I didn't say this in the pub

[00:10:31] but you did seem a bit different to yourself and um you know you could even say things like

[00:10:37] you know I've listened to podcasts on this stuff or look we all know that we're you know too many

[00:10:41] men are struggling and let's not let's not be two of them let's let's be different let's break the

[00:10:47] mold here I don't I don't want you to be struggling on your own if you are you know reinforcing

[00:10:52] this idea there's no weakness in it if I was struggling I'd want you to be my mate I think

[00:10:56] that's often the way if you flip it around as well and say you know I it's kind of tip for

[00:11:02] tat almost isn't it which I get you know it's like if I was struggling would you be there for me

[00:11:06] who's going to say no your mates are going to go of course mate of course I'm here for you

[00:11:11] all right well right now I'm here for you and I think you might need me and that's okay

[00:11:15] and you know so there's something about making sure that there's no there's no shame here

[00:11:20] I mean shame is a killer shame literally kills people because it keeps people silent

[00:11:25] like so saying to that friend I've struggled you know maybe maybe owning it a bit yourself

[00:11:31] and say I don't know what's going on for you right now but my hunches that things aren't great

[00:11:36] if they're not I want to know and I really want to know and I don't I don't there's no blame there's

[00:11:42] no shame here I think it's just being quite forceful with it a little bit and trying to say like let's

[00:11:48] let's do things a little bit differently here we've never had a conversation like this before but

[00:11:51] hey it's the first time for everything and you know you matter to me you're important in my mate

[00:11:58] I know it's and I get what you're saying like when I'm like oh it's not difficult

[00:12:02] that's not me saying it's not difficult I understand that yeah if when it's new of course

[00:12:07] it is difficult I guess I'm just conscious when I'm talking about what the work that I do

[00:12:10] I don't teach difficult conversations because I don't want that to sound like it's a barrier I teach

[00:12:15] courageous conversations and maybe that's something that appeals to you to your listeners like this

[00:12:20] is a brave thing to do this is the right thing to do isn't it because the alternative

[00:12:24] is unthinkable if you did nothing and then God forbid something happened to that friend

[00:12:29] as in they couldn't take it anymore and they took their own lives it's unthinkable

[00:12:34] that you would then go oh I didn't I didn't just say are you all right are you really all right

[00:12:40] it's just you know so in that way it seems comparatively not difficult the difficult thing

[00:12:48] is dealing with somebody's death and we don't want to we don't want to go there

[00:12:53] you know there is it doesn't it is it is hopeful what I do because it's like it's given people skills

[00:12:59] and tools and that's really all we ever want is especially men you know the the limited amount

[00:13:05] I know about men not being around myself you know you want to help yourselves a lot of the time

[00:13:10] you don't you don't you know struggle in saying I need help it's difficult it is for anybody

[00:13:15] but more so for men we know that three quarters of suicides are men and there's a reason for that

[00:13:21] man up man down is sponsored by well-doing there's someone who has seen a counselor for a number

[00:13:26] of years I think their approach is great they want you to find the mental health professional

[00:13:30] who is right for you you can filter your search to highlight therapists with expertise where you

[00:13:35] need it or you can pay to use their personalized matching service the people who run well-doing

[00:13:40] are experts in mental well-being and they also have loads of posts and interviews to keep

[00:13:44] your mental health in good shape to take a look at welldoing.org

[00:13:50] I think you hit the nail on the head there about how you know yeah men well from my own perspective

[00:14:04] you know I'd say that's one of my you know biggest weaknesses is that I'm not very good at asking

[00:14:09] for help it is you know regardless of the situation it's like oh well I can you know so

[00:14:14] I can find this information out myself or I could you know I can handle this myself

[00:14:19] and and and she sort of mentioned the word sort of burden and I think you know obviously we're

[00:14:28] talking about spotting signs in others but I think you know often you're like well I don't want to

[00:14:36] share this because I don't want to be a burden on someone else I mean so I mean obviously you've

[00:14:45] been doing this for 20 plus years I mean have you how much sort of change have you seen in terms of

[00:14:52] of it becoming more of an open conversation and you know has there been any particular catalyst

[00:15:00] that seems to have fueled the conversation at any point?

[00:15:06] Yeah because suicide is I think it is more and more in the news you know over the 20 or so years

[00:15:12] I've been working in mental health and tenaphones in particularly in suicide I've definitely noticed

[00:15:16] that um it's I think it's spoken about more and I think the catalyst really for these

[00:15:22] conversations has been Covid where we were actually um any question you know we were

[00:15:28] all checking in with ourselves all the time weren't we during Covid because it was a bloody

[00:15:32] weird time so and my feeling was that during 2020 and 2021 when you said how are you and the answer

[00:15:39] was fine it was like well bullshit because no one's fine like none of us are okay and so I do think

[00:15:44] that that that time really did push the conversation around mental health further and make it much

[00:15:50] more much more okay much more normal and I feel like with the new generation I mean when I

[00:15:55] was working as a counselor I was working mostly with teenagers young 13 14 up to about 19 lots of

[00:16:01] boys lots of young men some of them 13 year old boys and I've really I had some beautiful moments

[00:16:09] with them where um you know they'd be we'd be working through maybe their OCD or their anxiety

[00:16:14] or their suicidal thoughts whatever it was they were bringing to me and at the end of sessions

[00:16:20] they started saying oh this stuff's brilliant I'm going to go back and talk to my dad about

[00:16:24] this I'm going to teach my dad this stuff he needs to know it and I thought wow this is amazing

[00:16:28] because this is the new generation coming through and they're they're now educating upwards to their

[00:16:32] their dads because they can see their dads are struggling with stuff I mean how beautiful is that

[00:16:37] you know that that gives me hope that the new gen that you know these young young lads are a

[00:16:42] they're reaching they're getting therapy they're not they're not afraid to go and talk about

[00:16:45] how they're feeling I mean I'm generalizing these are just the ones I was talking to

[00:16:49] that but they're not they haven't been forced to come it was optional very much you can't

[00:16:53] therapy doesn't work if they're forced to come and you know yeah they were getting so much from it

[00:16:59] they were wanting others to know and that was yeah that's exciting isn't it more of that please

[00:17:06] and in that way I think social media you know gets a bad rap but it's got it can be a force

[00:17:11] for good you know there's some amazing instagram tick tock accounts where people are are really

[00:17:19] pushing the conversation and making it okay to talk about things you know it's okay not to be okay

[00:17:23] this whole concept yeah yeah there's also the idea that it's also okay to be okay because I think

[00:17:28] it was a danger of gone so far the other way is all feelings are valid right and that's

[00:17:35] that's I think that message is getting through to the new generation I think you're right I mean

[00:17:43] the younger generation is more prepared to talk about their feelings which is good

[00:17:47] yeah right and I think we say our generation so let's talk about generation if I say we middle

[00:17:52] aged men I think most of us if you look at it's a demographic had parents that grew up in the war

[00:17:58] right especially in Germany so I can you know not an episode where I don't mention the war but

[00:18:08] the you know there's there's legacy from the war right we don't talk about things we don't

[00:18:13] talk about our feelings right we don't want to talk to someone you know who comes from the war

[00:18:17] right but what they have gone through and and if I say there was distilled it to say into into my

[00:18:23] grandparents and then my parents generation and if I say slowly comes out we now start you know

[00:18:29] if I say our generation now slowly at least I think starts talking about about things in general

[00:18:34] and I remember we had you know if don't remember his last name Steven from from the Netherlands

[00:18:39] on who was a coach and he wrote a book on you know how to talk to your dad right Steve course

[00:18:45] Steve course that's one Steve go and he you know it's about talking to each other and

[00:18:53] something if I say our generation was never taught taught to do right and it's interesting

[00:18:59] that you say that the younger generation learns about it and they're much more receptive to

[00:19:04] therapy right that therapy is something oh yeah that's that's great you know it's like I get

[00:19:08] coach I get a therapist you know I have my mom and dad you know I have you know I have all these

[00:19:13] people that support me and then they help the older generation but how can the older generation

[00:19:19] help themselves because correct me the average age for suicide in men is 42 43 so middle aged men

[00:19:27] are the most at risk group yeah yeah so can we help ourselves yeah if you haven't got a son

[00:19:35] who's coming home from therapy and teaching you about it what's the other alternative yeah exactly

[00:19:39] what's what's what's the alternative right I mean yeah who's looking after us if you know we I mean

[00:19:45] we can't allow that younger generation to go like oh dad you know you you bit down right and and as a

[00:19:51] as a as a dad that doesn't talk you would go like oh don't worry son you know everything is okay

[00:19:55] you know the next day you do things the other way yeah I think the answer is what we're doing

[00:20:01] right now Volker I mean there was some brilliant research done recently by um by Jack Woodams he's

[00:20:06] part of a group called he started a group called Menfulness up in York and he's done some research

[00:20:10] into the power the power of podcasts um and actually that um you'll be pleased to know you

[00:20:16] know when people listen to podcasts like this it does actually it breaks down the stigma it

[00:20:20] starts conversations you know people might well after this conversation go do you know what I

[00:20:24] am worried about that mate and I'm going to just say something and that's what I get people

[00:20:27] say at the end of my courses even just a 90 minute course the one you mentioned taz 10 I've had people

[00:20:32] afterwards saying I've been worried about a mate for weeks and I've been putting off calling them

[00:20:37] and I can't put my finger on why I just know I think they're having some relationship trouble

[00:20:41] maybe there's some financial issues I don't know maybe that but that's enough to be worried isn't

[00:20:45] it about somebody and they say I've been worried about him for weeks and I've been putting

[00:20:49] off calling them because I don't know what to say it's going to be awkward but now having

[00:20:54] had that 90 minute training or maybe having listened to a podcast like this I'm going to give them a

[00:20:58] call and I still don't know really what to say but I'm just going to have a go and I'm just going

[00:21:02] to fumble through it and and and I'm like well my work here is done brilliant that's that's what

[00:21:08] we need that's exactly what we need and sometimes when you're making those calls it is like saying

[00:21:13] hey mate I only really know why I'm calling I don't even know what to say right now but I just

[00:21:18] something is telling me that you need a mate and here I am you know and it can be just that

[00:21:23] you don't have to have some deep profound answer in fact it's helpful if you don't try and fix

[00:21:28] their problems you know it's just I'm here you're not alone I don't know what it is if you want to

[00:21:33] talk great if you want to go out and go for a run or you know whatever I just just be with people

[00:21:39] be with me I want to I want you to not be whatever it is so you're talking or think

[00:21:45] you're going through on your own going through it you know I think there's just I don't know

[00:21:50] probably gone off track and left but oh yeah Volker's question was about how do you educate

[00:21:55] yourselves I think I think you're doing it you know wanting to if you learn if you lose one mate

[00:22:00] to suicide you know let that be the catalyst to never to learn something you know to learn these

[00:22:05] tools and the tools are get your radar going you know start the bloody conversation say something

[00:22:11] say something not nothing and it doesn't matter what the something is it could be just

[00:22:15] I'm here I love you mate I don't know let's do something that's not be on your own

[00:22:20] and it's and it's asking if the key thing really is asking directly about suicide now that could

[00:22:26] be hard I get that but saying a thing's so shit right now that you are considering suicide

[00:22:33] because if you are I want to know about it so we can get you the right help

[00:22:38] that's that's a that I get it that's tough that's a tough question to ask but it is the

[00:22:42] right question to ask you know when the time is right it's not the first thing you say you're not

[00:22:47] going to come in straight and say that but you know in the context of you know I'm with you and I

[00:22:54] don't want anything bad to happen to you yeah asking listening and then and then bringing some other

[00:23:01] bringing some other folks in on their terms it's all with consent it's all collaborative

[00:23:07] and that's really important you know you're not coming in as some sort of professional or expert

[00:23:11] it's your mate you know it's just you just want to be like dude if you're struggling let's get you

[00:23:17] the people that can help you not struggle because you would do this for me so let me do it for you

[00:23:21] yeah just keep going back to that yeah I'm waffling now I hope this is making sense

[00:23:27] no it's not

[00:23:32] it's early and I've not had a coffee so

[00:23:37] no no that don't make sense and so so friend of mine we spoke a few weeks ago and

[00:23:45] he just lost I don't know his cousin or you know relative or friend to suicide

[00:23:51] and and that sparked a conversation for us you know I've known him since uni right I've known him

[00:23:56] for 20 years you know but whether we would talk to each other about you know problems we have or not

[00:24:05] because we see each other I don't know once a year twice a year right we speak maybe four times a year

[00:24:11] and once of a sudden we we spoke on the phone for about an hour

[00:24:15] you know reassuring each other that if things got really worse we would have someone to talk

[00:24:20] to we could talk to each other yeah and I think that's and that's important too right and that shouldn't

[00:24:27] and as you said right it shouldn't happen because someone died right it should happen before

[00:24:36] yeah ideally yes but so often it does happen because of the because you know something suddenly

[00:24:41] about the pain that is left behind and you're like never again you know no we can't do that

[00:24:46] so often in a friendship group that's what I work with a lot of a lot of young people in

[00:24:51] their time sort of 20s 30s and who have lost a particular well lost friends in their sort of

[00:24:58] teens and they ask the word you know it gets used around too much but they they're like I am a

[00:25:03] different person since that since my friend died and we're all as a friendship group a different

[00:25:08] people that we be checking so much more this is men and women yeah yeah it is often after a

[00:25:14] loss but if we can do it before I mean better but you know the truth is I don't know many people

[00:25:21] I've hardly met a person who hasn't been affected by suicide in some way whether it was a close

[00:25:26] friend or a family member but all or just sort of like a friend of a friend you know

[00:25:29] it's around us you know we see we see these bridges with the flowers even that even a stranger

[00:25:34] that's affected you David just seeing that you're like wow that's in my community okay wow

[00:25:39] this is happening and it is it's happening all around us and it is important to talk about

[00:25:46] and it's important to share you know if somebody's died not not the method we don't

[00:25:52] ever need to know about the particular method of suicide but to know that a person died by

[00:25:55] suicide opens up the conversation and so often that's historically of course

[00:26:01] yeah not been spoken about and the shame around it I mean historically well it was a crime

[00:26:06] wasn't it till 1961 and and you know people who died by suicide were not allowed to be buried

[00:26:11] in certain areas of a graveyard you know not consecrated ground really super shameful for the family

[00:26:18] you know no payout on insurance there's like there's so much more that happens

[00:26:24] it's a very unique kind of loss as well then the grief is I've heard it called like

[00:26:29] it's grief with a magnifying glass it's grief it's grief magnified after a suicide because

[00:26:34] the questions afterwards the unanswered questions and they'll never be they'll never be answered so often

[00:26:41] well they won't be and that's horrible yeah pain you never get closure right

[00:26:50] yeah it's almost the opposite I think you you will always question what could have done

[00:26:54] to prevent it yeah that's right and there's a piece that you know you've got to reach a

[00:26:59] place of peace there's an incredible book coming out soon called daddy blackbird a lady called

[00:27:03] caroline's written it her her husband died by suicide in 2018 gosh I hope I got that right it was around

[00:27:11] that time and she's written this book and it really takes you through the she talks a bit

[00:27:17] about this is three sections of history there's a history of her husband Steve and then the second

[00:27:22] section is called the horror and it's a hard read and she says it at the end of part one

[00:27:26] she's like if you don't need to know this next bit if you're not ready for it move on but

[00:27:29] then the last section is hope and she talks about surviving and thriving and you know living a life

[00:27:34] that feels peaceful and meaningful again and having taken learning from it but the horror section

[00:27:40] you know what she's gone through what families go through yeah and the mixture of emotions

[00:27:47] because it's anger as well you know you're grieving this person but also it's how dare you do this

[00:27:51] to me how dare you leave us and our family and our kids and oh but and yet you know

[00:27:59] carol to that with compassion which she always does and people do is like

[00:28:02] i'm furious at you and yet you must have been in so much pain and it's unbearable it's unthinkable

[00:28:07] amount to think that that was the best thing for you for us and that's where people that's what I

[00:28:12] mean by the burden isn't it people genuinely think the others are better off without me the

[00:28:17] truth is nobody's better off without you everyone wants you here you don't see it you're the

[00:28:22] only one who doesn't see it but all the more reason for us as mates if we're feeling robust in

[00:28:27] ourselves in that time to let people know you're important to me you know if you're

[00:28:34] being kind being being more we're so quiet we're so shy in england we're so we don't like speaking

[00:28:40] about how we feel or being grateful or but you know it's pinging that mate a message like saying

[00:28:47] so good to see you mate you know let's do more of it i want more of you in my life you're

[00:28:51] important to me these little messages can really save lives if we don't if somebody's feeling

[00:28:55] like they're a burden they need to see they need to hear that and even if they're not you know let's

[00:29:00] just give someone a boost you probably get it back as well which is also nice it's not the

[00:29:05] not the goal but it's nice to just i don't know i sound like a right hippie now to share the love

[00:29:10] yeah but i mean this is sort of interesting you know the because you know as as we've sort of

[00:29:17] said um which you know might not have been in this conversation it might be the last conversation but

[00:29:27] you know like the way that men are it's you know we banter rather than talk so you're not going

[00:29:34] to pick up your mate you're going to take the piss out of him because you know he's wearing skinny

[00:29:39] jeans sort of thing you know it's like what are you wearing you know you don't have a right

[00:29:42] to wear these um and and you know and often it yeah you know it's like well if you're in a fragile

[00:29:49] place that banter can um you know which can have quite a negative effect which you know i'm not

[00:29:57] not saying to everyone stop bantering with your mates but um i mean so and volker sort of touched

[00:30:04] on on about the fact that we weren't taught this and i think you know like my son starts

[00:30:12] secondary school in september well as this goes out he would have just started school um

[00:30:18] but you know they sort of i know that they go into their lessons and and you know at the start

[00:30:23] well sorry at the start of school at primary school it'd be you know you choose a color of how

[00:30:30] you're feeling that day so you know if you're feeling really good it's a green you know and

[00:30:34] and it's like wow yeah just simple things like that like expressing that you're not feeling great

[00:30:41] and the you know you are yeah not feeling 100 percent i guess you know and it is just a great way

[00:30:48] of getting that natural conversation going um i mean i'm quite conscious that we haven't actually

[00:30:54] mentioned the uh the 10 tools i mean are they are they something that you can sort of talk through

[00:31:04] hello folks it's volker here i hope you enjoy this week's episode as you know i coach

[00:31:10] executives whether that is for leadership skills or sales leadership skills or working as a therapist

[00:31:17] too there are few ways i can help you to get unstuck improve your work life balance or become a better

[00:31:23] version of yourself so you will be more productive and have more time for your family whatever it is

[00:31:31] you can join my client list of people from general electric pepsi dhl boots and many others

[00:31:38] book a free exploratory call via my website www.opinart.us that's obnat.us now back to the show

[00:31:55] yeah yeah sure i mean that is in terms of how you can educate yourself yeah we run open sessions

[00:32:00] 90 minutes on zoom regularly um teaching you these these 10 tools and we chose the word

[00:32:06] tools really specifically because you know it's it's like a toolkit it literally is a toolkit

[00:32:09] yeah i mean i can talk through what those are i'll do i'll probably teach you the five that are

[00:32:14] really important because there's five that are like non-negotiable and and beautifully well not

[00:32:18] beautifully i mean i i wrote it they spell out the word start so one is so number one is um s

[00:32:25] stands for spot signs always a spot that's possible signs and we've talked about what

[00:32:29] some of those might be so like yeah withdrawing more alcohol than usual aggressive maybe or um

[00:32:38] um changes in yeah mood up and down up or down um and then those sort of phrases that we talked about

[00:32:45] as well like i can't take it anymore or or i'm just i can't think i'm overwhelmed i can't think

[00:32:50] straight what are these sort of phrases or i'm fine um so that's spot the signs t stands for

[00:32:55] trust your gut we've talked about that so you spot any of those signs then you trust your gut

[00:32:58] and your gut is speaking to you right it's your body knows what's what's going on even if your

[00:33:05] brain doesn't um st a is then if you if you think there's any any concern here you've got to ask the

[00:33:14] damn question and that's where it does you know it takes the conversation to another level yeah

[00:33:18] you've been bantering great there's there's obviously a place for that you know it's connection

[00:33:22] but it's it's also okay to go hey look i know that we you know this is a bit of a different

[00:33:27] different shifting conversation but you know we're joking around and there's just something

[00:33:32] telling me that just that you know you're not all smiles inside or you know that things that

[00:33:39] this not you know it's not always how you're feeling and you know sometimes when people say they're fine

[00:33:46] but they're not acting like they're fine they're thinking of suicide are you thinking of suicide

[00:33:49] and that's what i remember ask the question just get in there and and say you know suicide on your

[00:33:54] mind hard but important because if they say yes and if you've asked in a way that's encouraging

[00:34:00] and an honest answer then you want to know that yes because then they're not alone with those thoughts

[00:34:06] then the um the r s so s t a r stands for really listen so if you've asked that question

[00:34:13] and they've said well you guess you know it's on my mind and people amazingly will say yes to

[00:34:18] that question if if you've asked uh in a way that shows you care really listen is probably

[00:34:25] one of the hardest things to do when you've just heard a yes to that question because

[00:34:28] you want to go and fix it don't you you're like oh shit mate let's get you i don't know this

[00:34:34] sort out you know access to the kids or let's get you exercising more or we want to find you know

[00:34:39] let's get you a new job or whatever it is let's find a solution and actually it's trusted you

[00:34:45] know you'll know that's that's not going to help somebody that's going to disempower them that's

[00:34:49] saying that's saying to someone you're not capable of fixing your problems you need me which

[00:34:54] is not as a man or as any human even a child you don't need that from somebody else what you need

[00:34:59] is someone to really listen um so that's the challenge isn't it just go in whoa tell me more i want to

[00:35:07] know what that feels like to be you know considering suicide or or to be going through what you're

[00:35:13] going through and holding back on was it you know resisting those um that need to fix

[00:35:20] because it's it's not giving someone the right message um so really listen and then the final

[00:35:27] tea of the start stands for tell others together and together is really key like you never want to go

[00:35:33] you know off behind someone's back and go and like and they tell their wife or or other mates

[00:35:39] you know it's got to be collaborative so you as part of the conversation you're like

[00:35:44] look it's great you're talking to me that's fantastic but we're just two people

[00:35:49] um we're two messy humans doing the best we can do and there's only so much i can do there's

[00:35:53] only so much you can do who else needs to know about this um and their GP would be a good place

[00:35:58] to start if they've not thought of that let's let's get you let's get you a doctor's appointment

[00:36:02] let's maybe talk to your your your wife your husband your um any any other good friends

[00:36:08] that you've identified but it's all really really gentle there's no rush here but this is what

[00:36:14] we teach that's that's five of the there's five others that kind of add to the meat to the bones

[00:36:18] if you like but yeah those those five key key messages key tools are life-saving

[00:36:26] when you say there's no rush how how do i know there's a rush or not how do i know it's not

[00:36:34] you know he or she's not planning it tomorrow yeah so you'd ask so you know i mean the the

[00:36:39] only time there would be a real rush is if like someone had harmed themselves like right now

[00:36:44] already so you're having this conversation and there's all like an imminent danger as in like

[00:36:49] you're on a bridge or there's you know i don't know there are pills there's a there's a weapon

[00:36:55] there's a and they're talking about doing it imminently and if you're not sure you ask like

[00:36:59] when if you say you're thinking about so it's like have you got a plan have you made that

[00:37:03] you've got the means have you have you started actually preparing for this and when were you

[00:37:07] thinking like next week next month you know i mean it's a really direct conversation it's

[00:37:14] incredible but when you ask direct questions you bloody get direct answers so you've got to be

[00:37:18] prepared for the answer because you want to know but but it's also okay to ask and no

[00:37:23] someone might just go i don't want to tell you in which case you're like well you know if

[00:37:27] you're gut speaking to you at the end of the day if there's an if there's an immediate

[00:37:32] danger it's a 999 call ideally with their consent but even without if you're like

[00:37:39] shit i think this is like dangerous now then it's 999 of course it is they would be in any

[00:37:46] emergency and this is an emergency but when i say no rush you know for the most part you're having

[00:37:51] these conversations before any action has been taken so it's really about being very clear

[00:37:55] the difference between thoughts and action loads of people think about suicide they say one in

[00:38:01] 20 people are thinking about suicide that's a lot people think far fewer go on and like

[00:38:08] take action on those thoughts far fewer and then of those very small number die most people survive

[00:38:16] which is hopeful and then a lot of those will not will never try again but some some might

[00:38:24] we know that it does increase the risk of trying again if you've tried once

[00:38:30] it's something less you know it's kind of familiar after that but

[00:38:36] in the first take you were talking about testosterone level and i'd like to

[00:38:40] say bring that into this episode as well because from memory you said if you have low

[00:38:46] testosterone level there's a higher link to to take your life and yeah that's right

[00:38:54] my notes here yeah there's an amazing um oh this i mean the person to really listen to on this is

[00:39:00] ryan park get him on your podcast for sure it's he's he's like literally mr testosterone he'll laugh

[00:39:07] if he hears that um but yeah so here's the thing right so men so men aged 18 to 50 up to basically

[00:39:15] adults aged 50 of that age group the number one killer of men is is suicide and 50 plus

[00:39:22] the number one killer is heart disease and both of those are linked to low testosterone

[00:39:28] like there's a really strong link between low testosterone suicide and low testosterone and heart

[00:39:32] disease um so there's and so there's something about and how do we how do you raise testosterone

[00:39:39] i mean you'll you'll probably know this you know we'll just have the euros final you know when

[00:39:44] when in when england loses or when your team loses well two two really important things happen

[00:39:50] one is domestic abuse goes up you'll probably know that it goes skyrocket so that's terrifying

[00:39:57] but testosterone levels are massively affected if your team loses it drops significantly and so

[00:40:05] that's going to affect your physical health but massively your mental health as well

[00:40:09] um and there's not there's not a lot you can do about that that's hormonal but knowing it

[00:40:13] and then knowing how to increase your testosterone is yeah here um because it's like you know

[00:40:18] your art is out of your control so it's like okay i need to sort of safeguard myself against that i need

[00:40:23] to you know know that when i've had a for example my team loses or you know there's all sorts of

[00:40:29] things can drop testosterone right so um what can what can bring it up exercise stopping

[00:40:34] alcohol you know all the good stuff for you but yeah um and finding finding meaning in your life

[00:40:41] finding a you know finding a reason to get up in the morning um meaningful connections

[00:40:50] meaningful activity whether that's earning your money or not something something good for

[00:40:54] your team feeling connected all this stuff will will help increase your testosterone but it's so key

[00:41:01] and yeah i'm not i want to get i want to urge you to get it you know have you heard

[00:41:06] Edward rainbow and the date Ryan park these guys are going deep on this stuff now yeah okay

[00:41:15] but my my main takeaway from that is the uh supporting coach de united has been seriously

[00:41:21] affecting my health and there's a joy as well i mean there's something about because when

[00:41:29] you're your testosterone will raise when you're watching the game because you're with other people

[00:41:33] as long as you're with other people whether that's in the pub or with it when you're home

[00:41:37] there's something very um tribal about that right it's it's good that is good for us yeah well there's

[00:41:42] there was something that i heard really quite recently and i can't you know so i'm probably

[00:41:49] going to regurgitate it and and completely fit the facts to my theory but um it's basically about

[00:41:57] um well you know thing like communal communal activities um but basically singing like in a

[00:42:07] community it is apparently like meant to be really really good for your mental health and and yeah

[00:42:13] you know i was just sort of thinking well you know you sort of said about no football and

[00:42:17] tribalism but you know i mean like i've sort of joked about about sort of you know my team

[00:42:24] cultured united and and yeah some of the greatest moments i'm like well one of the greatest moments

[00:42:29] of this year um because it's been a pretty shit year to be frank um was going to watch cultured

[00:42:35] united like when they played Crawley which is you know local to where i live me and my son went

[00:42:40] and we won which was you know as i've mentioned quite a rare thing but um but yeah and i was

[00:42:47] actually doing some sort of oh nlp work you know and it's all about focusing in on that

[00:42:53] that um that feeling you know when you need a boost you focus on the feeling that you had

[00:42:59] and that's sort of one of the things that i keep thinking about is when we scored one of our

[00:43:02] goals and i got so excited i fell over but um yeah sorry i've gone on a bit of a ramp

[00:43:08] over there but uh so basically try and find a decent football team to support

[00:43:14] and it'll keep you alive and keep you healthy that's what i'm gonna take from all that i think yeah and

[00:43:21] it might be football or it might be just anything that's like brings you together with people i mean

[00:43:25] like there's a gig and gigs i mean dad lasol down in the south coast dad lasol are doing amazing

[00:43:31] stuff down on the team with their own worthy brighton lewis um andy's man club you'll have heard of

[00:43:37] them the men's shed stuff like there's so much stuff happening now which is in a very

[00:43:42] non cheesy way and that's really important bringing men together to just like do stuff and with the

[00:43:49] like dad lasol they're doing vr they're doing lego with the kids you know it's like reliving a childhood

[00:43:53] it's fun they're learning to dj and yet at the same time conversations are happening about suicide

[00:43:58] and about mental health and these groups are literally saving lives um because they're just

[00:44:03] they're creating a community and that's that's what's really been missing i think so for so many

[00:44:09] men especially when they get into middle age it becomes about the family or if they haven't got a

[00:44:13] family there's an additional loneliness there but the friendship groups have changed for some reason

[00:44:18] and i'm not sure why they'll be researched on this women just sort of don't let that happen they tend

[00:44:23] they tend to keep their friends and find a way to nurture friendships and family which you

[00:44:29] know and themselves oh it's a big ask and and for some reason i guess men get you know wrapped

[00:44:34] up in in work there's still the provider instinct you know well what about yourself what about you

[00:44:41] and where are your friendships that cannot they cannot be lost friends literally save lives and

[00:44:49] you know through these tools i mean again i feel like we're only you know we're only just

[00:44:54] starting to starting to dig into the the good stuff but unfortunately we have run out of time

[00:44:59] but on a separate note we were actually uh sat in a sauna with uh dan from dad lasol just on friday

[00:45:07] so yeah yeah i'd say that that was certainly an environment that broke down barriers between men

[00:45:14] but i'm sure that's something we'll talk about a bit more in the future episode

[00:45:18] and naked one david that's when it really makes sense barriers well as i say you know

[00:45:23] so we tease that for another episode but um i mean yeah thanks so much for coming on rose

[00:45:32] thanks so much for coming on again after the technical difficulties of the first episode

[00:45:38] i mean you're doing incredible work and so if you know organizations want to get in touch with

[00:45:45] you what's the best way to find you oh um oh god yeah the shameless plug moment well

[00:45:51] i'm on linkedin rose rokins or my website is startthekonversation.uk there's no co in there just

[00:45:57] dot uk um find me there yeah i'd love to see you on train your teams um i mean we'll obviously put all

[00:46:04] those details in the show notes um but yeah thanks thanks once again and um i'm sure we'll

[00:46:10] catch up again very soon oh thank you and you guys are doing great as well i think you've got

[00:46:15] the best named podcast in the world i love it and i'm doing such a good job so thank you for having me

[00:46:21] on again thank you thank you thanks for listening to this week's episode feel free to reach out to

[00:46:32] folka or david via our website www.manupdown.com or podcast at manupdown.com with any feedback

[00:46:40] or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future hear you again soon