Jaaq - Mental Health Made Real

[00:00:06] Welcome to the Man Up, Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:13] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:20] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com. Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:30] So welcome to another episode of Man Up. Delighted to have Ryan Hopkins from Jack here. Have I pronounced that correctly?

[00:00:50] That's absolutely it, yeah. Thank you very much. You nailed it.

[00:00:55] Awesome. See, I'm a one take wonder.

[00:01:00] Ryan is a global best-selling wellbeing author, chief impact officer at Jack, executive engagement advisor at Bupa,

[00:01:09] former future of wellbeing creator, leader at Deloitte, TEDx speaker, LinkedIn top voice.

[00:01:16] And he's engaged over 15 million people in the betterment of wellbeing and intends to reach a billion.

[00:01:22] So yeah, thanks for joining us, Ryan. I've just got through that intro.

[00:01:27] I know it's a bit long, honestly. I'm trying to cut it down, but like each bit, I think it's pretty cool.

[00:01:33] I have to choose bits and bobs, but yeah, thank you very much for having me.

[00:01:37] Well, you're going to have to tell us all about my terrible attempts at getting through your bio.

[00:01:45] So yeah, what should we talk about first?

[00:01:53] That's down to you, isn't it?

[00:01:54] I can still laugh in that.

[00:01:56] Am I asking myself the questions here or are you asking me?

[00:02:02] It's an open conversation.

[00:02:04] Isn't it?

[00:02:05] Yeah. So welcome from me as well.

[00:02:07] Do you want to talk us through a little bit?

[00:02:09] I mean, you already talked about, or I talked about the TED talk before we went live, right?

[00:02:13] So I watched it, you sitting on the toilet.

[00:02:16] You know, so you just said there's another one coming.

[00:02:19] So I don't know if you can disclose, you know, you're going to sit on the toilet again or what?

[00:02:24] I was going to say, I can't believe I didn't go straight in with the toilet.

[00:02:28] That's it. Yeah. First person in history, unsurprisingly, through a TED talk from a toilet,

[00:02:32] I had to get special permission from Ted HQ.

[00:02:35] We had to check it was allowed.

[00:02:37] And I bought the toilet the morning of the TED talk.

[00:02:42] So I bought it in Whitechapel and I had to walk it.

[00:02:45] So I was expecting to pick up a plastic toilet and it was porcelain.

[00:02:49] And if you've ever picked up a toilet, they are incredibly heavy.

[00:02:53] So I'm in like my nice clothes.

[00:02:55] So I've got a TED talk and I've practiced 34 times through it.

[00:02:58] I'm pretty nervous.

[00:02:59] I'm walking the toilet through East London.

[00:03:01] I'm putting it together backstage before I go out and do the TED talk.

[00:03:05] And actually I was quite nervous.

[00:03:06] So my notes were inside the toilet.

[00:03:08] If I slipped up at any point, I always knew all I would have to do is lean into the bowl,

[00:03:16] grab my notes and put it back out if it all went wrong.

[00:03:19] But the premise was like twofold.

[00:03:22] The story's a long one, but at one point in my life, I was so anxious.

[00:03:27] I couldn't leave my front door without feeling like I was going to piss myself.

[00:03:30] And I was working as a bouncer.

[00:03:32] I was about 110 kilos playing rugby.

[00:03:34] And you would think on the outside, I was super confident, but I was coming out in hives.

[00:03:39] I was so anxious and I was always thinking, where's toilet?

[00:03:41] Where's toilet?

[00:03:42] Where's toilet?

[00:03:42] And it was horrible.

[00:03:44] And it kind of partly anomalous to the fact all I ever wanted was a toilet.

[00:03:47] When I was struggling at one point, I started a show called Toilet Break Wellbeing.

[00:03:52] Started the selfie on the toilet.

[00:03:55] Did a video helping people understand wellbeing is no small thing, but made up of small things.

[00:03:59] If you do 10 press ups every time you go to the loo this year, you do 29,200 press ups.

[00:04:05] It's about the little things we do regularly.

[00:04:07] And it doesn't have to be this big, serious conversation, but something we speak about as often as we go to the loo, right?

[00:04:12] Which is eight times every day count.

[00:04:14] If you don't think it's eight, you'll be shook tomorrow, I promise.

[00:04:17] And I started this series in the toilet.

[00:04:19] Then I ended up with like a ring light set up in my bathroom.

[00:04:22] It looks legit like an OnlyFans channel, like some premium Ryan Hopkins content going on behind the scenes that people pay the extra for, the payroll content.

[00:04:29] But that's not the case.

[00:04:31] And I started this series and engaged millions of people in it.

[00:04:34] And then the idea continued to roll.

[00:04:37] It turned into my book, 52 Weeks of Wellbeing, all the research over the hundreds of episodes.

[00:04:41] And then, yeah, form the basis for the TED talk and how well being is no small thing, but may nothing small things.

[00:04:48] And by finding that place to talk and focus on the little things, you can have a massive, massive impact for your own life and for others.

[00:04:55] So, yeah, that was the talk was called engaging a billion people from the toilet.

[00:04:59] And you're about 15 and a bit million now.

[00:05:02] So we're getting there.

[00:05:03] We're moving.

[00:05:04] We're moving.

[00:05:07] Moving on the toilet.

[00:05:09] Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:10] So I've got to ask, I mean, so, yeah, how did you go from being someone that was scared to go too far from the toilet?

[00:05:22] Sounds like being completely consumed by anxiety.

[00:05:28] To, yeah, going back to the bio that I read out.

[00:05:33] Oh, yeah, it was first my injury.

[00:05:38] I played buggy when I was younger.

[00:05:40] My, my whole thing.

[00:05:41] I was a sparky.

[00:05:42] I was an electrician from Hastings, played rugby.

[00:05:45] That was my life.

[00:05:46] And I loved it.

[00:05:47] Like I was, I was happy and play rugby, had a freak accident, broke my ankle, my leg, you know, one of the ones it's facing the wrong way, like properly twisted rounds.

[00:05:56] Like the picture on Instagram, you've got to press yes, I do want to see graphic content.

[00:06:03] And that injury, I lost my career.

[00:06:06] I wasn't able to work anymore doing that profession.

[00:06:09] Didn't walk for a year.

[00:06:10] I had no qualifications, no prospects, no future and looked in the mirror and I put on weight and I was in a wheelchair for about a year and multiple operations and four.

[00:06:18] I don't know if I can swear or not, but I'm going to, you know, I'm like, fuck this.

[00:06:21] Like, I thought, what's the point?

[00:06:23] Like, I have nothing.

[00:06:24] I don't, I don't have an identity anymore.

[00:06:27] I honestly have no present and future.

[00:06:31] And at that point I wanted to, or I made plans to take my life.

[00:06:36] And if it wasn't for my mum, I wouldn't be here now at all without a doubt.

[00:06:41] Mums are the best, big, big up to all the mums and old boys out there looking after people who were struggling.

[00:06:46] But yeah.

[00:06:48] And then after that, I started losing the weight, but developed bulimia and had that hidden for about eight years.

[00:06:54] And then the anxiety came later actually.

[00:06:58] So it was a 10 year journey and struggle.

[00:07:02] And, but yeah, as, yeah, as anyone knows who's been for, they know it is, it's hard work.

[00:07:07] And only in 2017, I started to share my story one little bit at a time at work at the other event.

[00:07:16] And I was like, first I would say I was depressed.

[00:07:19] And then I finally felt comfortable to talk about the anxiety, then the bulimia, then the psychosis and the suicidal ideation.

[00:07:25] And then the, the toilet thing.

[00:07:28] And it's like little by little, I've felt comfortable to share those things.

[00:07:32] And before you know it, you're talking to bigger, bigger an audience.

[00:07:35] Every time you share your story, you just absolutely, it's unsurprising to me now, but surprising at the time.

[00:07:42] Someone always resonates.

[00:07:43] Someone always, I get you.

[00:07:45] I see you.

[00:07:45] I feel seen.

[00:07:46] I can't believe you're feeling like this.

[00:07:48] And you might think you're the only person going through these things, but you're actually in the majority.

[00:07:53] And most of us are going through some shit behind, behind the eyes, right?

[00:07:57] There's no tougher battle than the one you fight in your own head and everyone is going through that, a variation of it.

[00:08:02] Then I started sharing on socials one piece at a time.

[00:08:06] And yeah, yeah.

[00:08:08] I don't know how slowly, but surely over time I was doing it side of desk, like most people do at work.

[00:08:14] I knew I had to make it my career in 2018.

[00:08:19] I started doing that and I kept moving towards it.

[00:08:22] And then I've been writing, creating content, podcasts, research every day since, writing the book on the weekends.

[00:08:29] I do everything I can now constantly to help people not end up where I did, or if they do to know they're not alone.

[00:08:38] Men, women, anyone, don't care.

[00:08:40] It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from.

[00:08:42] There's a good chance that you're struggling.

[00:08:45] So yeah, that's why I do all of it.

[00:08:50] Man Up, Man Down is sponsored by WellDoing.

[00:08:52] As someone who has seen a counsellor for a number of years, I think their approach is great.

[00:08:56] They want you to find the mental health professional that is right for you.

[00:09:00] You can filter your search to highlight therapists with expertise where you need it, or you can pay to use their personalised matching service.

[00:09:07] People who run WellDoing are experts in mental wellbeing, and they also have loads of posts and interviews to keep your mental health in good shape.

[00:09:15] So take a look at WellDoing.org.

[00:09:17] So what is that book about?

[00:09:26] Admittingly, I haven't read it yet.

[00:09:28] Oh, you're missing out, mate.

[00:09:29] I know.

[00:09:30] It's a pretty good one, I must say.

[00:09:33] I'm sure it is.

[00:09:34] I'm sure you've read mine.

[00:09:36] Absolutely.

[00:09:37] I remember it fondly.

[00:09:41] So, 52 Weeks of Wellbeing.

[00:09:43] Obviously, the title gives it away, right?

[00:09:45] It's a year of wellbeing.

[00:09:47] See, I've gone that far.

[00:09:49] What is it about?

[00:09:50] What's the aim of the book?

[00:09:52] To share your story?

[00:09:54] Yeah, no, no.

[00:09:55] Well, partly, kindly people have said it's like I'm talking to them while they're reading the book,

[00:10:01] because it's kind of written in a colloquial tone.

[00:10:03] It's all researched.

[00:10:05] It started with 230 odd sources for a 230 page book.

[00:10:11] They've been really researched over seven years, but then spoken about in common tongue,

[00:10:16] because wellbeing is the most personal thing that you experience.

[00:10:20] The definition of it is one subjective satisfaction of their life.

[00:10:23] And if you come in with this heavy academic clinical conversation,

[00:10:26] you will never engage anyone that needs to step into that journey.

[00:10:30] So it came from Toilet Break Wellbeing.

[00:10:31] That was the initial book proposal.

[00:10:33] It was meant to be Toilet Break Wellbeing.

[00:10:34] I imagine it being a coffee table book.

[00:10:36] That was why I started doing the videos in public to write the book.

[00:10:41] The whole idea was to do the videos to write each chapter at a time in public,

[00:10:45] learn what works, catch your feedback as we go.

[00:10:48] Then over the years doing the content, I'd already had about 30,000 words written and researched into the Mth degree,

[00:10:54] because I've done it every single weekend over that time.

[00:10:57] Then the publisher said that wouldn't sell.

[00:10:59] Toilet Break Wellbeing.

[00:11:00] We're a business book publisher.

[00:11:01] Not in a month of Sundays till we want to touch that book.

[00:11:04] I was like, cool, no worries.

[00:11:05] I was like, what about making work less shit one week at a time?

[00:11:09] And they were like, equally, we don't really do swear words and entitle.

[00:11:13] We're an academic business book publisher.

[00:11:15] I was like, whoa, whoa, don't leave me yet.

[00:11:16] I was like, hold fire.

[00:11:17] Give me one more.

[00:11:18] I said, what about 52 weeks of wellbeing?

[00:11:20] And no nonsense guy.

[00:11:22] And they were like, we like it.

[00:11:25] So that's how it grew.

[00:11:27] 52 different chapters.

[00:11:28] No one piece of advice, rather questions or tips on how you can consider what that chapter means for you as an individual.

[00:11:35] Because what works for me doesn't work for you.

[00:11:38] Doesn't work for David.

[00:11:39] It doesn't like every single person is completely unique in where they are on their journey.

[00:11:42] So it's rather giving information, give people the resource they need to understand what they need and how to prioritize the time to do what they need when they need it most.

[00:11:49] And it's been really received really well.

[00:11:53] Hit number one for like Amazon business books for a while, which is amazing.

[00:11:59] Yeah, it's been republished in Korean and Arabic over the next few months.

[00:12:03] Wow.

[00:12:04] Hopefully I'll be out in Saudi and over in Seoul doing a little book reading.

[00:12:09] So I'm going to have to brush up on my Arabic and my Korean.

[00:12:13] Like, Salaam Alaikum.

[00:12:14] That's about all I got.

[00:12:14] My Korean is absolutely lacking.

[00:12:16] So there's some studying to be done, but it's amazing.

[00:12:19] And then the whole point is to help you understand it's not a big, scary thing.

[00:12:24] It's never achieved overnight.

[00:12:25] It's the little things we do every day.

[00:12:27] And if you just focus on those little things and work out what you need to do and prioritize the fuck out of them, that's all you can ever do.

[00:12:33] And it's the most important thing ever.

[00:12:34] And that's the whole premise of the book.

[00:12:36] And I share stuff pretty vulnerably and little bits and bobs and hopefully it's a fun read.

[00:12:41] The best criticism of the book, actually, I found it hilarious because there's been like a little bit.

[00:12:45] I find it quite funny.

[00:12:48] One woman was so good.

[00:12:50] She was like, this is an amazing idea for a book.

[00:12:52] And I was like, oh, fantastic.

[00:12:53] Good review.

[00:12:54] And then the second half was very average execution.

[00:12:57] I thought it was very funny.

[00:12:58] So I enjoyed that one.

[00:13:00] And then, but then there's something like, it's a bit repetitive.

[00:13:03] And I said, well, it was meant to be read over a year and you've read it in two days.

[00:13:07] But like, I was like, I did, I did warn you.

[00:13:09] Yeah.

[00:13:10] So I was like, that ain't my fault.

[00:13:13] You know what I mean?

[00:13:14] I feel like that's on you.

[00:13:16] But it's been lots of lessons.

[00:13:17] I really enjoyed the process.

[00:13:19] And I'm having talks about doing a second one at the moment.

[00:13:24] Okay.

[00:13:25] Same topic or?

[00:13:27] Similar, broader, not workplace specific rather.

[00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:31] Well being writ large.

[00:13:34] So how did you end up at Jack and for the listeners, what is Jack?

[00:13:41] Jack is probably the coolest mental health platform I've ever seen.

[00:13:46] Yeah.

[00:13:47] It's the right information, the right format, click of a button.

[00:13:50] So we're working with Formula One teams, Premiership rugby teams, Adidas, some of the biggest brands, companies in the UK and charities.

[00:13:57] People sit in the chair, the Jack chair, which is becoming quite famous.

[00:14:00] They share their story.

[00:14:03] Alistair Campbell, Jermaine Genius, Davina McCall, people you respect know, share what they've been through, regardless of what it is.

[00:14:11] Yeah.

[00:14:11] And then next to that, we'll have the expert or the person, the expert on that topic.

[00:14:16] So you can see someone that is just like you experiencing something and then we'll give you the right information and then we'll pathway you to your next point in your journey.

[00:14:23] TikTok style content, but all validated by clinicians because we partner with Booper and some other amazing institutions to make sure there's no nonsense on that.

[00:14:30] We actually, yesterday we ticked over a million questions answered for the first time, which is amazing.

[00:14:37] And it's truly different.

[00:14:40] And it's like you put in any question, it pulls up the right content.

[00:14:42] And then we've got like loads and loads of topics, like 89 different topics on there now.

[00:14:47] So you've got everything from my friend who spoke about alopecia, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, anything you could think of as a human, we're trying to fill those gaps.

[00:14:55] And we get all the analytics behind so we can see what people are asking.

[00:14:58] Now we're doing lots on addiction and gamblers, we're doing sex, digital, drink, drugs, everything, because the mental health discussion has been almost like anxiety, depression, but there's so much more than that.

[00:15:10] There's neurodiversity, there's ED&I, there's all these things.

[00:15:13] That's what it is.

[00:15:14] And it's amazing.

[00:15:14] And it's so much fun.

[00:15:16] And we're seeing the impact.

[00:15:17] It's really, really growing.

[00:15:19] We're building a platform for kids, which is free for the world.

[00:15:23] The org is free for the world.

[00:15:24] We have a workplace proposition, which enables us to look at quite quality things that have a huge impact.

[00:15:30] We reduce mental health absence at NatWest.

[00:15:32] And because of all this good work, we're able to offer this to the world.

[00:15:35] And we think this will give people the right information.

[00:15:38] And I ended up there because I slipped my trousers open, actually.

[00:15:42] So when I was at...

[00:15:45] Toilet is splitting your trousers open, okay.

[00:15:47] There's always something related to like toilet and pants with me for some reason.

[00:15:52] It's just, I'm not sure how I've ended up in this really weird niche odd space, but I was at Deloitte.

[00:16:00] So, mate, honestly, it's so bizarre.

[00:16:02] I was at Deloitte and I got asked to do a really cool event with the UK insurance lead for Bupa.

[00:16:08] And they had a big camera set up, six cameras.

[00:16:10] They're talking about the workplace, anxiety and work, and how to create a workplace where we can prioritize people to focus on what they need.

[00:16:16] I was like, right up my street, perfect.

[00:16:19] And so I was like, got there nice and early, ordered an omelet in a cafe around the corner in East London.

[00:16:25] I was like, you know, sit down, prepare, get my laptop out, nice and relaxed, hour early, because otherwise the stress just builds up still.

[00:16:32] I do lots of talks.

[00:16:33] I spoke to over 100,000 people now, but I still get the anxiety and I still get that feeling I'm going to piss myself, but I just know how to deal with it now.

[00:16:41] And so then I got there and I'm sitting there and I can feel a breeze on my balls when I'm eating breakfast.

[00:16:49] I'm like, yeah, that ain't right.

[00:16:55] So I put my hand down and I was like, all right.

[00:16:58] So I've ripped from butthole all the way around to the front.

[00:17:03] Like full rip, not like a little rip, not like a cute little hole where you can see a tiny bit of boxes.

[00:17:07] I'm putting two separate legs at this point.

[00:17:10] I'm not quite sure how I've done it.

[00:17:12] So I called the team, the boobies team, hey, like, do you have any spare trousers?

[00:17:17] And they were like, what do you think?

[00:17:18] What do you think this is?

[00:17:20] We don't have wardrobe.

[00:17:22] Do you know what I mean?

[00:17:23] And I was like, well, I'm not asking for fashion purposes.

[00:17:26] This is more out of necessity.

[00:17:27] And that's why I don't flash myself to all of your audience.

[00:17:31] Which of course I'm happy to have done content in the toilet for a very long time.

[00:17:34] So it doesn't bother me.

[00:17:35] It's more for you.

[00:17:36] And so I said, that was why we turned up and we did it.

[00:17:39] And I'm sitting there with Richard Norris.

[00:17:41] So I know quite well now with the work we do at Bupa.

[00:17:43] But that was my introduction to him and Bupa.

[00:17:46] And Jack were announcing their partnership with Bupa on that call.

[00:17:50] Right.

[00:17:51] So the Jack team are watching in the Jack office,

[00:17:53] watch me sit there with my pants ripped open,

[00:17:56] talking about the most scary, the most anxiety inducing experience known to man.

[00:18:00] They were like, they were like, all right, we like what you're saying.

[00:18:03] You're a little bit weird.

[00:18:04] You fancy coming to see what we're doing over here?

[00:18:07] So they showed me the platform and I was like, okay, that's amazing.

[00:18:11] Cause I, at Deloitte, I built the wellbeing business external facing thing.

[00:18:16] I was helping organizations and governments,

[00:18:17] but you're limited with who you can work with.

[00:18:20] Be a profit, create an organization.

[00:18:22] It's consultancy.

[00:18:22] Whereas Jack is for everyone.

[00:18:25] And I want to help people who can't afford the help,

[00:18:27] who don't work in the organizations that can afford to bring consultants in.

[00:18:30] And that's what this does.

[00:18:31] It democratizes the information that I wish I had when I was bulimic,

[00:18:35] that I wish I had when I was feeling suicidal or so anxious,

[00:18:39] I couldn't leave the house.

[00:18:40] There wasn't anything like this.

[00:18:42] There isn't anything like this.

[00:18:43] And when you see it, that this is going to change the world.

[00:18:45] And they were like, do you want to come over?

[00:18:49] We're not sure what your role would be.

[00:18:51] I was like, well, let's work it out together.

[00:18:53] We ended up on chief impact officer.

[00:18:55] So I analyze, basically maximize and communicate our impact on individuals,

[00:19:03] organizations, and society.

[00:19:04] So I look across the impact we're having for people,

[00:19:08] for individuals and trying to capture all of that.

[00:19:10] So we can tell a really concrete story and then bring it back into the business

[00:19:12] so we can iterate the products.

[00:19:14] We can bring the right people in, analyze the data on the back end.

[00:19:16] So we can make something that truly changes lives.

[00:19:18] And it's the sickest job role in the world.

[00:19:22] Like I love it.

[00:19:23] I get to do amazing things, work with amazing people and build a product that

[00:19:28] like improves lives.

[00:19:29] And yeah, I feel very fortunate when I talk about it like this,

[00:19:32] it brings it back.

[00:19:33] You get caught in stuff sometimes, don't you?

[00:19:35] And you are, and startups difficult sometimes and they want to do a million

[00:19:39] things.

[00:19:39] But when you speak about it like that and we'll reflect back in five years

[00:19:44] and we'll have hit a billion answers.

[00:19:46] And this will be something that's used all over the world.

[00:19:48] There's nothing like it.

[00:19:49] So it's one of those special, special moments.

[00:19:51] And when they told me about it, I was like, yeah, let's go.

[00:19:55] Tell them what you need when we, when we, when we're getting this done.

[00:19:58] And that was last October.

[00:20:00] And yeah, I'm in and we're scaling up.

[00:20:01] And I was like number 15, already like 35 real big ambition.

[00:20:07] So yeah, it's exciting.

[00:20:10] Um, I mean, you sort of touched on the fact that, um, you know, you started off as a sparky

[00:20:15] and, you know, you sort of talked about the, um, you know, improving accessibility to, to

[00:20:22] mental health tools, you know, regardless of what, you know, whether you work in an office

[00:20:27] or, you know, whatever your background is, um, you know, whatever your financial means is because

[00:20:32] yeah, face it.

[00:20:33] Like if you want to get mental health help in this country, you know, for any sort of period

[00:20:39] of time, you've got to pay for it.

[00:20:41] Um, I mean, do you think that there are still sort of some industries or some areas?

[00:20:48] I mean, you know, it's quite well documented that, you know, sort of depression and suicide

[00:20:52] in the construction industry is particularly bad.

[00:20:57] Um, and, and again, you know, to sort of stereotype, it's seen as a, you know, macho kind of environment.

[00:21:05] Um, I mean, do you think there is sort of certain industries or elements of society that are more difficult to penetrate?

[00:21:16] Absolutely.

[00:21:17] There's no, there's no, no two ways about it.

[00:21:21] Then there are different challenges for every industry.

[00:21:23] Like it's your language in the building industry while we're not engaging people.

[00:21:28] And the fact that they're not on digital tools all the time, so then you have to meet them potentially with an analog, like entry point to the solution.

[00:21:36] The best meditators I know on this, on the face of the earth are bricklayers, bricklayers, without a doubt that you've never seen someone, they roll, they sit there, and they're not going to be a good idea.

[00:21:47] They roll up, they roll up a cigarette, right?

[00:21:49] They've got the backy pouch.

[00:21:50] You always got like a cigarette hanging out in your mouth and they tea dark and any cup of tea you've ever seen made that comes out of a firmus for six cups of tea.

[00:21:57] At the end of the day, it's basically treacle.

[00:21:59] All they do is they pour that out.

[00:22:01] They get a cigarette on the go and they sit on the end of the wall.

[00:22:03] If they're making a conservatory and they stare off into the garden.

[00:22:07] And Dave will be sitting there for about 15 minutes, pure bliss, absolute silence.

[00:22:11] He wouldn't call that meditation.

[00:22:15] But what is it if it's not?

[00:22:18] It's a language issue.

[00:22:19] Things have been developed for a certain audience and people with a level of understanding, or it's the language that switches people off to these initiatives.

[00:22:28] So if we can meet those people in those scenarios, help them understand there's amazing organizations that Andy's Man Club and people and groups like that, that are stimulating conversation for people that are simply have never been brought up in an environment that it's okay to talk about that sort of stuff.

[00:22:45] I mean, we had a guy from the Lions Barbers Collective.

[00:22:51] Don't know if you've heard of them.

[00:22:52] I mean, basically what they did was have barbers come onto site on construction sites and they're all like trained in mental health, sort of first aid.

[00:23:05] But it wasn't like, right, you're going to come with your hair and you tell us your problems.

[00:23:11] It was, you know, we're here to give you a free haircut.

[00:23:14] And then, you know, eight times out of 10, some sort of discussion.

[00:23:18] You don't ever open up as much as you do in a barber's chair.

[00:23:23] For anyone that can't see, I'm follically impaired.

[00:23:24] I am very bald.

[00:23:25] I haven't sat in a barber's chair for a very long time, but I remember sitting down in the chair back 2017 and before, and you talk.

[00:23:33] You talk more in a barber's chair than you do anywhere else, don't you?

[00:23:36] Yeah.

[00:23:37] What an amazing opportunity.

[00:23:38] This is what I mean.

[00:23:39] It's understanding the audience and meeting them where they are.

[00:23:42] Yeah.

[00:23:44] The Minds Gym offered some amazing research recently.

[00:23:48] They pulled this really cool report, Working Well, I think it was called.

[00:23:51] I'll take this back from the team there doing some tremendous work.

[00:23:54] I'd recommend you check the research out.

[00:23:56] They said that, so when, when wellbeing apps and stuff are launched, initially it's a 28% of the business say, yes, we'd like to.

[00:24:02] By the time it's launched, half those people have dropped off.

[00:24:05] Six months later, another 75% have dropped off.

[00:24:07] And we're lucky to have six to 8% at that time.

[00:24:11] And that's high left in the business, which you're paying for a hundred percent of the people for.

[00:24:15] The drop off is highest for those with the lowest amount of salary and the least amount of time.

[00:24:20] And so the people that are using these initiatives, the gym apps are doing it outside of work anyway.

[00:24:25] So we need to understand the people.

[00:24:26] We need to meet them where they are with the right intervention in the right moment.

[00:24:29] And we speak about the building industry predominantly blokes, right?

[00:24:33] So you've got to understand that.

[00:24:35] Maybe you've got to meet them with a cuppa.

[00:24:36] Maybe you've got to meet them with a haircut or a beard cut for someone like myself.

[00:24:39] We've got none on top of my head.

[00:24:41] But then with the financing, it's just a different challenge.

[00:24:44] You've got an executive.

[00:24:45] She's working flat out, right?

[00:24:46] She's working till eight, nine at night.

[00:24:48] You know, you're not going to meet them with a long course.

[00:24:50] She's not going to have time to come to a webinar.

[00:24:52] Perhaps she just needs to understand where the resources are when she needs it in a format that she wants to understand it.

[00:24:57] So unless you, so one size fits all fits none.

[00:25:00] And we're seeing that with the Oxford research, that wellbeing interventions don't work.

[00:25:03] Oh, I don't think that's right.

[00:25:05] I think it's that wellbeing interventions made for one person sent to an entire organization don't work.

[00:25:09] But when we create the space and trust smart people to do what they need and say all the stuff's over here when you need it.

[00:25:14] This is what good behavior looks like.

[00:25:15] People will do it.

[00:25:17] And we're seeing it time and time again at Jack.

[00:25:19] So the research is great click bait title, but yeah, it's rubbish in my opinion.

[00:25:23] I think we can create the opportunities for people to intervene, to get involved, to have the conversations.

[00:25:29] Then you'd be surprised.

[00:25:30] People will take advantage of it, but first they need the time.

[00:25:33] They need the time in the agency.

[00:25:35] And then you watch people come up and they set these things up and the best things in the workplace and outside of it are the ones that didn't weren't created by the organization.

[00:25:43] Right.

[00:25:46] Hello folks.

[00:25:47] It's Volker here.

[00:25:48] I hope you enjoy this week's episode.

[00:25:51] As you know, I coach executives, whether that is for leadership skills or sales leadership skills or working as a therapist too.

[00:26:00] There are few ways I can help you to get unstuck, improve your work life balance or become a better version of yourself.

[00:26:08] So you will be more productive and have more time for your family.

[00:26:11] Whatever it is, you can join my client list of people from General Electric, Pepsi, DHL, Hoots and many others.

[00:26:21] Book a free exploratory call via my website www.ognath.us

[00:26:28] That's O-E-N-A-T dot U-S.

[00:26:31] Now back to the show.

[00:26:38] I like what you're saying about the bricklayers because I've been saying that for many years.

[00:26:44] So I'm a, I'm a mind, what am I?

[00:26:46] I'm a mindfulness practitioner, whatever you want to call it.

[00:26:48] Right.

[00:26:49] Okay.

[00:26:49] Amazing.

[00:26:50] Yeah.

[00:26:50] Love it.

[00:26:51] So as I sit down every day and meditate and that's, that's what works for me.

[00:26:55] Right.

[00:26:55] To your point.

[00:26:57] As a people go for a run, you know, they play tennis, they sit and stare, you know, and whatever

[00:27:03] people do it, it doesn't matter.

[00:27:04] Right.

[00:27:05] You know, just, just because one thing works for me, it doesn't work for others.

[00:27:08] Right.

[00:27:10] And, and I, you know, we, we, we shouldn't force, you know, whatever works for us onto someone else.

[00:27:15] Right.

[00:27:15] And I think that's, that's where I think a lot of people go wrong.

[00:27:20] Does that make sense?

[00:27:21] Right.

[00:27:21] It's the, it's the common narrative and it's, it's why most, most of the senior people in the space who got the greatest audience have found what works for them is that this is what everyone needs.

[00:27:29] No, it isn't what people need, what people need first is to understand who they are and where they want to go.

[00:27:36] How often do we ask that question?

[00:27:38] Yeah.

[00:27:38] Then they need to create the space inside of work and outside of it.

[00:27:42] Gen Z and I spend 106 days a year on their phones.

[00:27:45] And we say, I mean, you got time to focus on wellbeing.

[00:27:47] Rubbish.

[00:27:48] You got time just where we spend it.

[00:27:50] It's very addictive.

[00:27:51] And often it isn't our fault, right?

[00:27:52] That we'd stuck in this cause it's easiest to get a quick dopamine fix there and actually going to do the work.

[00:27:57] Yep.

[00:27:57] But we do have the time and when we create that time and we focus on the little things, amazing things happen.

[00:28:02] But we don't know what those little things are for each person.

[00:28:04] We just have to educate, encourage, communicate, measure it, assess, try, do something new.

[00:28:10] Cause what worked for me five years ago, ain't working for me now.

[00:28:13] And that's good cause it means I've grown.

[00:28:15] And same for you, right?

[00:28:16] Same for meditation, whatever you want to call it.

[00:28:18] It don't matter.

[00:28:19] As long as you do some of it, take a second for yourself.

[00:28:22] Exactly.

[00:28:23] If you, if you look at Michael Phelps, right?

[00:28:25] I think he did an interview with probably Tim Ferriss or whoever it was, but.

[00:28:28] Love, love Tim Ferriss.

[00:28:30] That's my favorite podcast.

[00:28:32] Yeah.

[00:28:32] Yeah.

[00:28:33] He's, he's almost as good as us, right?

[00:28:35] Almost.

[00:28:36] He's, he's up there.

[00:28:37] I'm sorry.

[00:28:38] I meant to say he's my favorite American podcast, obviously.

[00:28:41] Like.

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:42] So I nearly got caught out there.

[00:28:44] Woo.

[00:28:44] That was close.

[00:28:45] He's your favorite prepared podcast host.

[00:28:50] That's it.

[00:28:51] That's it.

[00:28:51] Mate, it's just cause I look, just cause I look like him.

[00:28:53] That's all.

[00:28:54] Yeah.

[00:28:56] Sorry.

[00:28:57] Carry on.

[00:28:57] No, no, that's good.

[00:28:58] So, so Mike, um, so I think Michael Phelps, it was, he, he said on a podcast, right?

[00:29:03] He, his meditation was just being in the water, right?

[00:29:06] Eight, eight hours a day.

[00:29:07] I mean, you know, however many hours he, he swam, he probably swam more than eight hours

[00:29:11] a day, but you know, whatever works.

[00:29:14] Right.

[00:29:15] And, um, mine's the, mine's the sauna.

[00:29:18] Yeah.

[00:29:18] The sauna is my happy place that I can switch off.

[00:29:21] Yeah.

[00:29:22] It's funny when you sort of said about brick layers and meditation, I just thought, oh

[00:29:26] yeah, because you know, lining up the bricks.

[00:29:29] And I was just like, I can imagine that's so therapeutic.

[00:29:33] It is until you see a dark cloud come over and you got to drag all the tarpaulin over

[00:29:37] the, it's like the pool gets wet.

[00:29:39] But like, I was only ever a hog carrier.

[00:29:41] I never, well like labouring in my younger years, but yeah, some of those, some of those

[00:29:46] blokes, like they just, it's just different language for the same thing.

[00:29:50] Isn't it?

[00:29:50] Take a second.

[00:29:51] Obviously I'm not advocating for a, for a cigarette during your meditation break for

[00:29:55] life.

[00:29:56] What works for you?

[00:29:57] Right.

[00:29:57] So you see, I was wondering when you first said brick layers, you know, I thought like,

[00:30:01] is it, is it the cigarette or what's in the cigarette?

[00:30:03] Right.

[00:30:05] Yeah.

[00:30:06] There's been some dodgy building sites I've worked on as well, but I won't talk about

[00:30:09] those.

[00:30:09] No.

[00:30:11] So as my build always said, right, go to the scaffolders.

[00:30:14] They have the best weed in town.

[00:30:15] I don't know.

[00:30:18] I don't know.

[00:30:18] Obviously those, those boys as well, the scaffolders are the strongest, fittest blokes

[00:30:22] on the building site as well.

[00:30:23] Those holding those poles up.

[00:30:24] Have you ever done that before?

[00:30:25] That is serious work.

[00:30:27] It is.

[00:30:27] You don't need to work out when you do that, right?

[00:30:29] Yeah.

[00:30:30] You're safe on the gym membership, right?

[00:30:31] Most definitely.

[00:30:36] So, um, I mean, what, um, I mean, what, you know, what you've described about Jack,

[00:30:44] I mean, you know, it sounds incredible.

[00:30:47] And as you say, it's sort of about reaching different people on their level, essentially.

[00:30:55] So what, what is the biggest kind of challenge that you're facing at the moment?

[00:31:00] Is, is it literally just getting the word out?

[00:31:04] Yeah, we were talking about, um, really interesting, quite timely, you asked that question.

[00:31:08] We were talking about values of our company yesterday.

[00:31:11] And one thing that came up time and again, was like ambition, ambition, drive.

[00:31:16] And then we were like, we quite like create the problem.

[00:31:19] So we say we got, we're pushing out so, so well, and the interest is so strong.

[00:31:24] And they say, if we land all these things that we're doing, we won't have the capacity

[00:31:27] to deliver the work, create the problem, generate the work.

[00:31:31] We will find the right people to deliver it.

[00:31:33] So what it is, is we got so much amazing opportunity in front of us.

[00:31:36] We've got the coolest like workplace proposition I've ever seen.

[00:31:41] The org is starting to pick up.

[00:31:42] We're getting some amazing people wanting to come on the platform and lined up to come.

[00:31:45] Chris Robshaw is going live soon, like the England captain, like the really cool, cool people.

[00:31:50] I get asked to come upstairs and say, Oh, you are?

[00:31:52] You've got five minutes.

[00:31:53] You'll come meet someone.

[00:31:54] I came upstairs.

[00:31:54] Chris Robshaw's there.

[00:31:55] I'm like, I'm like a huge rugby fan.

[00:31:56] I was like, you're Chris Robshaw.

[00:31:59] I thought we did.

[00:32:00] I was like, I got my book.

[00:32:01] And I was like, hello, I'm Ryan.

[00:32:02] I like your book.

[00:32:05] But like, it was amazing.

[00:32:07] And then we've got the kids proposition as well.

[00:32:10] Jack junior, which we launched in a huge pilot.

[00:32:11] We'd know the need of it.

[00:32:12] It's really starting to pick up some huge momentum.

[00:32:14] We got huge opportunities with Bupa, other organizations.

[00:32:18] And we're like, we could do so many things that we have to be just smart where we pick

[00:32:23] our times.

[00:32:24] The biggest challenge we got is prioritization and doing things well, which is why I'm just

[00:32:28] making sure let's promise less.

[00:32:30] Let's focus on a few things, the most valuable things for the business.

[00:32:32] Let's create the problem as well.

[00:32:33] Let's stretch and drive, but then let's just be smart because we can't do it all.

[00:32:38] And everyone, a lot of people want to work with us because it's something amazing as

[00:32:41] well.

[00:32:41] We just have to be really smart about time.

[00:32:43] Like amazing problem.

[00:32:44] Same personally for me.

[00:32:46] Like I've got a second book potentially come in that second Ted talk or this work

[00:32:50] or the work I do with Bupa.

[00:32:52] I do talks on the side.

[00:32:54] I've got a new relationship with the buzzer the past couple of months.

[00:32:57] I'm trying to make time for this.

[00:32:58] I moved into my own flat last Friday.

[00:32:59] Like I'm trying to do so much because all these amazing things.

[00:33:02] So I just have to think, how do we do this over the long run?

[00:33:04] And that for me, it's our biggest challenge that we need to practice what we preach and

[00:33:08] prioritize ourselves, our sense of wellbeing, physical, mental, all of it while maintaining

[00:33:14] something.

[00:33:14] But when you see something so amazing that you know will help people, so many people

[00:33:18] and you're seeing it and you're getting the feedback, you're like more, more, more.

[00:33:22] And you're like, no, let's like, let's do it.

[00:33:25] Let's keep delivering.

[00:33:26] But like incrementally, but it's, it's a challenge.

[00:33:28] Like it's an amazing challenge to have, but we're creating the problem.

[00:33:31] I think is how I'll underline that whole thing.

[00:33:33] Yeah.

[00:33:35] How do you execute for the kits?

[00:33:37] Is it, is it going to be TikTok style as well?

[00:33:39] Absolutely.

[00:33:40] Yeah.

[00:33:40] Yeah.

[00:33:41] We've got, um, amazing people will become one of their bupah clinicians, Alastair Campbell's

[00:33:45] done an episode.

[00:33:46] We've got kids sharing their journey through divorce, through being autistic.

[00:33:50] So kids talking to kids about their experience rather than saying, this is what anxiety is.

[00:33:55] It's about feelings and emotions and moments.

[00:33:58] So we're not classifying things.

[00:34:00] We're just giving kids the right information to understand themselves in the context of something

[00:34:04] that happened in their life, bullying, social media, everything else.

[00:34:06] Yeah.

[00:34:07] It's amazing.

[00:34:08] We've done a huge research piece that we'll be able to share the findings from soon, the

[00:34:12] needs for this for schools, how many schools are engaging, uh, Gen Alpha digital native

[00:34:18] kids with paper and mental health.

[00:34:21] And yeah, the initial findings from how the kids have found it, how the parents have found

[00:34:26] it, how the teachers have found it have been.

[00:34:27] Yeah.

[00:34:28] Next level.

[00:34:28] And when this goes, trust me, it's going to go big.

[00:34:31] We're going to be getting on like all the news, new shows and stuff.

[00:34:34] And it'll be, yeah, hopefully the number one resource for kids, parents and teachers

[00:34:38] just have conversations around mental health, neurodiversity and everything else.

[00:34:41] And yeah, just super exciting.

[00:34:44] Super exciting.

[00:34:45] When you going live was that?

[00:34:48] Roughly?

[00:34:49] Yeah.

[00:34:50] Yeah.

[00:34:50] We were working out because we can push, we've got a version now, but we're doing more

[00:34:53] testing.

[00:34:54] So you want to get it right.

[00:34:56] More, more, more to come.

[00:34:57] I don't want to, I always under promise.

[00:34:59] I can't say, I can't say a date, but trust me when it comes, you'll see you ain't missing

[00:35:02] it.

[00:35:02] I promise.

[00:35:02] Okay.

[00:35:05] I signed up to all the newsletters.

[00:35:07] So, you know, I'll be, I'll be there.

[00:35:10] I appreciate that.

[00:35:11] Yeah.

[00:35:11] You'll be, you'll be hearing about it.

[00:35:12] I promise.

[00:35:14] Look, I'll come back on and I'll talk to you about all the findings and the research.

[00:35:17] Yeah.

[00:35:17] I was about to say, right.

[00:35:19] Obviously a time of recording.

[00:35:21] It's, if I say it's not summer.

[00:35:23] So we, if I say the recording probably, it doesn't feel like it though, does it?

[00:35:26] No, that's true.

[00:35:27] Yeah.

[00:35:30] Well, it feels like a new beginning today actually.

[00:35:32] So that's, that's good.

[00:35:33] I think.

[00:35:33] Yeah.

[00:35:35] Yeah.

[00:35:35] Um, to, so, so I don't know where we go live, but yeah, I, I think, you know, we'd love to

[00:35:41] kind of have you back and talk about that because I think it's so important.

[00:35:45] Once we focus on middle-aged men, right.

[00:35:47] Um, you know, and kids are maybe not our target audience.

[00:35:50] Uh, a lot of middle-aged men have kids, right?

[00:35:52] Let's not forget that.

[00:35:54] Uh, do you see the, do you see the latest Deloitte mental health?

[00:35:56] Yeah.

[00:35:57] I've had a report focused on working parents and found out the cost, the mental health

[00:36:04] impact of kids or kids are struggling on the UK economy is about 8 billion pounds a year.

[00:36:09] The parents having to take time off to look after kids, all parents are concerned.

[00:36:14] Your kid's got a cold.

[00:36:15] Absolutely.

[00:36:15] You're concerned.

[00:36:16] Mental health is a bigger concern and in school they don't know how to deal with it.

[00:36:20] They don't have the resources, especially in public sector as well.

[00:36:23] It's really, really difficult waiting this to go in.

[00:36:24] So that impact on middle-aged men and women is massive and under understood.

[00:36:32] Yeah.

[00:36:32] And 1% of all working parents have left the workforce due to mental health challenges of

[00:36:37] their kids, which sounds not much.

[00:36:40] When you look across the whole UK, the society is a massive amount of people.

[00:36:45] That's crazy.

[00:36:46] Completely drop out of the workforce due to that.

[00:36:49] So it's yeah.

[00:36:51] Maybe something we should talk about more, right?

[00:36:52] Cause even if,

[00:36:53] Yeah.

[00:36:53] Even if it's a traditional family, the man is working, the females in the home or the husband or whoever else, it doesn't matter.

[00:37:01] The impact to the entire family, the women's at work, the dads at home.

[00:37:04] It doesn't matter.

[00:37:06] Like the impact on that family is going to be the same regardless as someone who's struggling.

[00:37:09] So it's something really interesting, beginning to be researched better.

[00:37:13] And when we understand that, I think we'd be able to support parents with the right information because I can just about look after myself.

[00:37:19] I couldn't imagine looking after someone who, who was struggling and how difficult that is.

[00:37:23] Cause I've seen it with, with my nan, my mom, but it's different.

[00:37:27] I imagine for a parent, I don't have a child. So I couldn't, I can't imagine.

[00:37:31] But I mean, you know, it's, we're almost talking about it from sort of the negative standpoint of, you know, X amount of children are affected by this and therefore, you know, the parents, et cetera.

[00:37:48] But, you know, I think the fact that, well, I, you know, I like to think that our children, um, are sort of, you know, growing up in an environment where, you know, they are taught, well, a, that to have, you know, low feelings or anxiety, et cetera, is perfectly normal.

[00:38:09] Um, if, you know, not saying that, so therefore you've got to live with it, but you know, it's, it is perfectly normal, but also, you know, their learning tools such as, you know, say breathing, et cetera.

[00:38:23] Um, which, you know, well, I, I guess, you know, sort of what with my, you know, my mental health, I guess it's not really something I started addressing until I was in my thirties.

[00:38:37] And, you know, it's taken a good 15 years to sort of learn a load of tools that probably would have been very beneficial in my twenties.

[00:38:49] Um, so, you know, it, it sort of feels like very much over the longterm, we are making progress.

[00:38:58] Um, although in this result in more people who need support, but potentially it was an underserved population beforehand.

[00:39:04] Right. And that increased understanding will enable us to have conversations that hopefully won't lead to a place where I was or where you were.

[00:39:11] Yeah.

[00:39:11] And where we could have come forward years before, right.

[00:39:13] And have the conversation that we wish we did when we were much younger.

[00:39:17] So yeah, I, I completely see the positive side.

[00:39:20] This podcast wouldn't exist if it hadn't been for the pandemic.

[00:39:24] And, you know, I think there's lots of mental health conversations that have taken place as a result of the pandemic.

[00:39:32] I mean, do you think that say, you know, that Jacques would exist without the pandemic, you know, sort of, well, I guess, which is my way of asking, do you think the conversation has opened up since the pandemic?

[00:39:46] Has it become more acceptable to talk about, you know, yes, feeling low, et cetera?

[00:39:52] Okay.

[00:39:53] Very, another good question.

[00:39:54] I like it.

[00:39:54] I do like your questions.

[00:39:55] I was thinking about this recently for a post and this thought's been percolating for a while.

[00:40:02] So let's see how it sounds aloud because it's very pertinent to what you just said.

[00:40:06] I don't think we have an issue with talking about mental health in the past tense anymore.

[00:40:13] After pandemic, I was feeling it.

[00:40:16] I was depressed.

[00:40:16] I had anxiety.

[00:40:17] I was bulimic.

[00:40:19] I went to a different period.

[00:40:20] I think we have a present tense challenge.

[00:40:23] So we don't talk about, I am anxious.

[00:40:26] I am depressed.

[00:40:27] I am struggling.

[00:40:29] My kid is.

[00:40:31] And I feel like we can tell stories much better.

[00:40:35] And we've all learned how to communicate who we once were, that person over there.

[00:40:39] But who I am right now, still talking about where I am each day is just as difficult as it was seven years ago.

[00:40:46] And that's because there's no changes that have happened in the workplace apart from a few events and apps and opportunities for people to talk about things.

[00:40:53] The resource and the understanding, the development, the learning hasn't necessarily come forward.

[00:40:57] We don't have more time to focus on ourselves.

[00:41:00] We just have more opportunities to talk about who we once were.

[00:41:04] I think then when we focus on creating the environment where people can focus on the things they want in the present, I think we'll make huge steps.

[00:41:10] So I think the conversation has developed leaps and bounds.

[00:41:15] But telling stories about other people and who we once were, rather where we are right now.

[00:41:20] Well, it's still almost that thing of to admit that I've got a problem now is weakness.

[00:41:26] To admit that I had a problem before shows strength.

[00:41:30] You know, it almost feels like that.

[00:41:32] Yeah.

[00:41:33] You see what I mean?

[00:41:34] That we're still afraid to say, yeah, I'm feeling weak.

[00:41:39] Like I work with some companies, like the rationale as to why people are leaving the business.

[00:41:43] You look through the rationale, it's one, it's career change, finances, family and other.

[00:41:48] Whereas in the Deloitte Mental Health Report, we found that 59% of all exits over the past year were due to stress, lack of balance and other issues.

[00:41:55] Because the understanding isn't quite there in the present.

[00:41:58] And we can understand looking backwards and we can retroactively talk about how well we're doing things in these community groups.

[00:42:04] But unless we're changing the circumstance, the environment, the drivers of the mental health of the people, then we're not actually making any improvement.

[00:42:11] So, yeah, just how did that make sense?

[00:42:14] Did that make sense as an answer, though?

[00:42:16] Oh, yeah.

[00:42:17] Yeah, definitely.

[00:42:19] I mean, but it's just mad that, you know, and it's something we've talked about before, but it is almost as soon as you kind of put a dollar or a pound sign in front of something.

[00:42:32] And, you know, and we sort of talked about, oh, well, it costs the economy this much.

[00:42:35] It's almost like big business suddenly is like, oh, we'd better do something about this.

[00:42:38] Yes and no, though.

[00:42:40] Yes and no.

[00:42:41] I think the papers love it, but the businesses are not doing anything about it because it's still ethereal and it's nothing to do with our business.

[00:42:46] We found at Deloitte only 1% to 2% of companies are using organizational data to measure the effectiveness of their efforts.

[00:42:52] So no one knows beyond survey or qualitative feedback what the actual impact of doing the work inside the organization is.

[00:43:00] You wouldn't go to a sales team and say, hello there.

[00:43:03] Hello, Joanna.

[00:43:04] Hello in sales.

[00:43:05] How are you getting on this month?

[00:43:06] And she goes, I don't know, but I've got some really nice feedback from the client.

[00:43:10] What is the CFO going to say?

[00:43:12] They'll be like, I don't think so.

[00:43:14] Tell me how we're doing.

[00:43:15] What's the percentage?

[00:43:15] What's the target?

[00:43:16] What's the yield?

[00:43:17] What's the penetration?

[00:43:18] What are we looking like across APAC?

[00:43:21] That's how we treat well-being currently still.

[00:43:23] And we talk about it because it's soft and fluffy and it's nice.

[00:43:26] But when you treat it like a discipline and use that rigor and you apply it to the business, you will see it's a huge, huge opportunity.

[00:43:33] And when that's finally understood, we'll actually be able to create this space where people talk about it in the present tense, get the support they need to turn into, hopefully, to move towards their best self.

[00:43:43] And people will suffer.

[00:43:45] We can't help everyone all the time.

[00:43:47] We just help them when they get in that moment.

[00:43:48] But we can reduce the number of people ending up there.

[00:43:50] That's the future of work we need to move to.

[00:43:52] I mean, and it's interesting, like, you know, you sort of said about X amount leave.

[00:43:58] Well, because of other.

[00:44:00] Yeah, because of other issues.

[00:44:02] But yeah, you know, you just sort of think the amount and go, you know, again, sort of going back to putting pound signs on it.

[00:44:09] It's like, well, the cost it takes to recruit someone.

[00:44:13] And you think, well, if that person just said, you know, I need a couple of weeks off, you know, and I need to take it now.

[00:44:21] It's like, well, actually, that might cause a bit of a short term issue.

[00:44:25] But the long term, you know, you've kept, you've retained a really good employee.

[00:44:31] And I guess, you know, there's still not an environment where people feel they can say that.

[00:44:35] But we can, we can do those sums and develop that methodology to show that.

[00:44:42] And, but not many people have done that work.

[00:44:44] So it's moving forward 100%.

[00:44:47] Huge, huge difference.

[00:44:48] Like we said, we come on leaps and bounds, but there's more to do.

[00:44:51] And when we treat, we apply that rigor, you watch.

[00:44:54] When a company's done that work, things change quick.

[00:44:57] Because they're like, we can't afford not to be doing this.

[00:45:01] Like, yeah, it seems so obvious to me.

[00:45:04] And I have to hold back my frustration when talking to people.

[00:45:07] Because I'm like, I'm like, why are you not doing this?

[00:45:09] I'm like, you are literally losing tens of millions of pounds.

[00:45:11] Oh, yeah, that's quite interesting.

[00:45:12] I'm like, it's not quite interesting.

[00:45:15] Like, I'm like, you've just laid off people to say 2 million.

[00:45:19] Like, if you focus on this as a business case and create an environment where people could do it,

[00:45:23] then you could reduce productivity by 2%, take your foot off the gas a little bit and keep the best people in the business.

[00:45:29] You would still save amount.

[00:45:31] And it's just because we haven't done that work.

[00:45:33] But when we do that, yeah, then we get the opportunity to do some amazing stuff.

[00:45:37] But yeah, I find it fascinating.

[00:45:39] I'm a massive nerd on this subject.

[00:45:40] So I love it.

[00:45:43] So I'm trying to get my head around it, what you guys just said, right?

[00:45:47] Because what David said, I think I can see that, right?

[00:45:52] How people go like, oh, yeah, I used to be depressed.

[00:45:55] Now I'm fine.

[00:45:56] Right?

[00:45:57] Like, it's a hero syndrome, right?

[00:45:58] You had an issue, but you overcame it.

[00:46:01] That's all.

[00:46:02] But I think more and more people are opening up in the workplace, right?

[00:46:08] So more and more people, I think, do talk in present tense, right?

[00:46:11] So what I see from, you know, if I say my little corner of the world, and maybe that's down to me, you know, I'm not a workplace, obviously.

[00:46:22] But I'm kind of thinking, I think you're both right, right?

[00:46:27] Because there isn't enough support, right?

[00:46:29] There is not.

[00:46:30] I don't think businesses are ready for that yet, right?

[00:46:34] And I don't know how I best explain it, because I don't even think it's about money, and it shouldn't be about money, right?

[00:46:43] But that's, I think, still the downfall of businesses, because they need to put money against it, right?

[00:46:49] Like, I went, you know, not that I want to talk about myself, but I went through seven redundancies, right?

[00:46:55] Seven?

[00:46:56] Yeah.

[00:46:56] And then all of them were all, I mean, usually American companies buying European companies and then moving on.

[00:47:02] But it's like I was a number on a spreadsheet.

[00:47:06] I didn't know that the first couple of times, right?

[00:47:08] But it's, you know, it's down to money, right?

[00:47:12] And I see it over and over again, you know, when I work with companies.

[00:47:16] People make people redundant because, oh, you know, that salary is too high, right?

[00:47:21] It's always down to money rather than go like, oh, actually, you know, how can we make people happier?

[00:47:26] You know, maybe we pay them all 10% less, but we make them all happy.

[00:47:31] We make it, you know, a psychological safe environment, you know, and people will thrive.

[00:47:37] But I talk to so many people in my old industry that know, you know, another year max and then they're out, right?

[00:47:44] Because that's just the way the business cycle goes.

[00:47:47] And that's wrong.

[00:47:48] For me, that's wrong.

[00:47:49] And that causes anxiety.

[00:47:51] That causes, you know, ill mental health.

[00:47:54] And it's just, yeah, sorry.

[00:47:56] No, you're super, mate, no, I love it.

[00:47:58] I love the point.

[00:48:00] And I really respect the challenge when you think things got better in the present.

[00:48:02] Because I think you're right.

[00:48:03] Things have got better in talking about present tense, 100% compared to where they were.

[00:48:07] But that is the challenge that we need to answer.

[00:48:09] We don't need to create the environment to talk about in the past.

[00:48:11] We've got that space now.

[00:48:13] We need to focus on doing the things that keep enabling brave people to speak up how they're feeling right now and support them in the moment.

[00:48:18] That's just where the focus needs to be, right?

[00:48:20] If you don't have a past tense issue, we do still have a present tense issue, even though it's improved.

[00:48:24] So I do agree with you there.

[00:48:25] The second point, you are right, though, but that's how businesses operate.

[00:48:30] Businesses operate to make money unless they're a cooperative, a group or a nut field, and they reinvest their profits.

[00:48:35] Then they focus more on the people.

[00:48:36] However, if you work for an organization that has shared holdings, you have to be realistic.

[00:48:41] You've got to speak the language as CEO.

[00:48:43] If you go and you say, we've got this benefit, we want to do it for the benefit of the people, he's like, as nice as that is, I'm actually worried about keeping these people inside work over the next three months,

[00:48:52] as there's 14% inflation in Thailand.

[00:48:55] And therefore, I have to be really concerned with the import-export.

[00:48:59] That's where their focus is.

[00:49:00] If you speak to him in the language that he needs to be spoken to, which is, this is the business case.

[00:49:04] This is why we focus on the people.

[00:49:06] You will get the respect you need.

[00:49:08] So we do it because it's the right thing and we want to focus on the people rather than for shareholder gain.

[00:49:14] But there is a world, or there's not even an argument.

[00:49:18] It's the way it is.

[00:49:19] When you focus on the people inside the organization, performance and well-being come together.

[00:49:22] They're not contrary things.

[00:49:24] People think, oh, yeah, if you focus on yourself, you take a bit of time, you're not as effective.

[00:49:27] You're not bollocks.

[00:49:28] That's rubbish.

[00:49:29] Like, they come together.

[00:49:31] And when we do the maths and we treat it like that discipline and we speak in that language, we get the opportunity to create the environment where people can be their best selves.

[00:49:39] But unfortunately, that's just the language we have to, we have to learn to be chameleons in the well-being world.

[00:49:43] And not many people have done that.

[00:49:45] They said, this is right.

[00:49:46] Lots of things are right.

[00:49:48] There's lots of things that we need to change.

[00:49:49] But unless you understand the context in which you're playing, you will not make that change because we cannot just tear the wall back up as to how we work and then start again.

[00:49:56] It's iterative change.

[00:49:57] Understanding we need to get over there.

[00:49:59] And I see when people do that, it makes a huge change.

[00:50:02] And other organizations like Patagonia, incredible examples of like purpose-led organizations.

[00:50:07] They're not there for the money.

[00:50:09] Do you read the book?

[00:50:10] What was it called?

[00:50:11] Let My People Go Surfing.

[00:50:12] Amazing.

[00:50:13] Like how to build a business 101.

[00:50:15] I was like, that is shit.

[00:50:16] But like there's a few organizations like that, but most aren't.

[00:50:20] And I think we just need to understand, become chameleons, talk to managers in the manager language, talk to employees in the employee language, talk to your family in your family language, but always have the focus being to create the environment where people can thrive.

[00:50:33] I mean, it's interesting, you know, as you say, it is all about shareholder value.

[00:50:38] It's like, well, can't it be stakeholder value?

[00:50:41] So you're constantly looking what's best for the customer, for the employee and, you know, the shareholders.

[00:50:49] Shareholders will get more value when you focus on the stakeholder value.

[00:50:52] Like we just have to show them that that's the case.

[00:50:54] We just have to speak that language to get the scope and the resource to do the things for the stakeholders and then come back into the shareholders.

[00:51:01] Right.

[00:51:02] But we got to speak that language to get our foot at the table, because if we like the biggest respect in the world, we need a mindfulness course or for we know that this is going to help.

[00:51:11] We know it's going to help.

[00:51:11] If you go and talk about the impact on the lymphatic system to the CEO when he was debating a takeover somewhere else, you are out the room.

[00:51:19] You're never going to get in that room again.

[00:51:21] Yeah.

[00:51:23] And that's just the way it is.

[00:51:25] Yeah.

[00:51:26] I mean, I used to sell mindfulness courses to organizations, particularly during the lockdown.

[00:51:30] And it is a plaster.

[00:51:33] Right.

[00:51:34] Once I think it helps, don't get me wrong.

[00:51:36] It's the same as a yoga course.

[00:51:38] Right.

[00:51:39] It's, you know, because it also gives the company an excuse and goes like, oh, yeah, we offer yoga.

[00:51:44] Right.

[00:51:44] We do something for company, for our employees.

[00:51:47] But having a sales program.

[00:51:48] Yeah, it's also a 78 hour work week.

[00:51:50] So like.

[00:51:51] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:51:53] Yeah.

[00:51:54] It is a plaster.

[00:51:55] But it can change lives when we have the space.

[00:51:58] And we know that.

[00:52:00] Yeah.

[00:52:01] I mean, having a sales background.

[00:52:02] I know we're running out of time.

[00:52:03] But, you know, sales people, they're always anxious.

[00:52:07] Right.

[00:52:07] They always have to hit targets.

[00:52:08] Oh, yeah.

[00:52:09] They're the best ones.

[00:52:11] They're the best ones.

[00:52:12] I was really anxious.

[00:52:13] And I was a flipping good sales person.

[00:52:15] I'll tell you.

[00:52:15] Because you're always worried about everything.

[00:52:17] But you definitely hit your targets.

[00:52:19] It's not a nice way to be.

[00:52:21] But they don't get any support.

[00:52:23] Right.

[00:52:24] No, they don't.

[00:52:25] How many companies go like, oh, yeah, there's a counseling team for our sales team.

[00:52:29] Right.

[00:52:29] No, most companies don't.

[00:52:31] Well, in billions, they have it.

[00:52:34] Do they?

[00:52:35] Yeah.

[00:52:36] I've got Maggie Siff sitting there in the corner.

[00:52:38] Yeah.

[00:52:39] That's such a good show.

[00:52:40] I'm joking.

[00:52:41] A hundred percent.

[00:52:42] I know.

[00:52:42] But, yeah.

[00:52:43] It's difficult to explain.

[00:52:44] I keep sort of saying, well, that is exactly how I sort of see Volker in that that's the role that he could perform.

[00:52:53] But he doesn't watch hardly any TV.

[00:52:57] So it's like, oh, you know, it's really difficult to sell this concept when he hasn't actually seen this show.

[00:53:04] It is a quality show, Bobby.

[00:53:06] You do get a chance.

[00:53:07] It's worth watching, I promise.

[00:53:09] Yeah.

[00:53:11] But this is where Jack comes into it, right?

[00:53:14] You can't afford, if someone's on this level, to be adding in a therapist.

[00:53:18] You just can't.

[00:53:19] As good as that would be, and some people say that's what you need to do for every workplace.

[00:53:23] Dreamland.

[00:53:24] Not real.

[00:53:24] What you can do in that scenario is potentially provide an amazing digital solution that helps them improve a tiny bit or get answers.

[00:53:31] Is Jack a panacee?

[00:53:32] And no.

[00:53:32] Is it an amazing place to get answers?

[00:53:34] Absolutely.

[00:53:36] But like, nothing fits everything.

[00:53:38] And there's an understanding of that.

[00:53:40] And the fact that we've got to iterate, measure and improve all the time.

[00:53:42] When we treat you with the respect and discipline like we should, we'll create space for every demographic in the workplace to hopefully do what they need.

[00:53:49] Middle-aged men, young men, women, anyone.

[00:53:52] That's the goal.

[00:53:54] I mean, sadly, we have come, we have run out of time.

[00:53:58] I mean, again, it's another conversation that we could easily go on for a lot longer.

[00:54:05] I mean, it would be fantastic if you could come back and, you know, sort of share your findings and, you know, obviously keep us updated with the progress.

[00:54:15] When we get the Jack Jr. stuff back when we're about to launch, I'd love to come back and I'll talk you through the report and the findings we've got.

[00:54:22] That would be fantastic.

[00:54:23] We'd love to have you back.

[00:54:25] Where's our toilet?

[00:54:27] I'll come with the toilet next time, I promise.

[00:54:29] I was going to say, I really feel like you missed a trick, though, by saying you should have had your notes, like, on the toilet paper.

[00:54:39] So you could have, you know, just wrapped it up.

[00:54:40] I should have done that.

[00:54:41] Maybe I'll do that for the second talk.

[00:54:45] And, well, you know, you could perhaps have our faces on the toilet paper for the idea.

[00:54:50] I'm not sure if you want that.

[00:54:53] Anyway.

[00:54:54] I'd love to say maybe your face, David, not mine.

[00:54:58] But anyway, if people want to find out more about Jack and, you know, exactly what you do, Ryan, what's the best way to find you?

[00:55:07] Yeah, hit me up on LinkedIn.

[00:55:09] Just Ryan Hopkins.

[00:55:10] You should be able to find me fairly easy.

[00:55:11] And it's Future of Wellbeing.

[00:55:13] It's a handle on Instagram and TikTok.

[00:55:15] That's where I spend most of my time.

[00:55:17] Welcome any questions, thoughts, reflections and challenges all the time.

[00:55:21] I appreciate everyone for sticking around and listening as well.

[00:55:24] It's a really cool show.

[00:55:25] You're doing something amazing.

[00:55:26] So thank you for having me.

[00:55:28] Thank you very much.

[00:55:29] Yeah.

[00:55:30] Well, you know, keep up the good work and yeah, we'll catch up soon.

[00:55:34] I look forward to it.

[00:55:35] Thank you.

[00:55:39] Thanks for listening to this week's episode.

[00:55:41] Feel free to reach out to Folker or David via our website, www.manupdown.com or podcast at manupdown.com

[00:55:49] with any feedback or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future.

[00:55:54] Hear you again soon.

[00:55:55] Thank you.

[00:55:55] Thank you.