Mindset, Mood, Movement

[00:00:04] Welcome to the Man Up, Man Down podcast, presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:11] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:18] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com. Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:27] So welcome to another episode of Man Up, Man Down and it's a pleasure to welcome Sal Jeffries today.

[00:00:39] So Sal coaches founders over 40 who want to redefine purpose, increase performance and create a peaceful mind.

[00:00:47] Using psychology, emotional regulation and body intelligence, you change how you think, feel and act in new and helpful ways.

[00:00:55] This means less stress and overwhelm and more clarity, confidence and profitable performance.

[00:01:02] Sal also has his human performance podcast, Mindset, Mood and Movement, where he shares knowledge and tools on how to redefine purpose, increase performance and create a peaceful mind.

[00:01:11] I very much look forward to this episode. So first of all, Sal, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:16] Thank you very much, Volker. Nice to see you. Nice to see you, David. I'm looking forward to talking all things mind and midlife.

[00:01:24] Yeah, there's a lot to talk about mind and midlife. So where should we start?

[00:01:29] Do you want to give us a short intro in terms of who you are, what you do and we take it from there?

[00:01:35] Yeah, absolutely. Well, to keep it simple rather than what you do, I spend my time hopefully changing people's lives.

[00:01:42] Most of the time I seem to do that in a positive way.

[00:01:45] I have the privilege of working with interesting people, clever people, normally who run their own businesses, their founders or somewhere in that space.

[00:01:53] And we tuck into how they operate from the inner game, as I think Tim Galway used to talk about this, the old coach, that work on mindset, how you think you're in a story and then how that's experienced your emotional state and how that expresses in the world, the actions you take.

[00:02:09] So that's how I spend most of my time. I'm also a midlife guy.

[00:02:13] I'm 52, which sounds ridiculous when I say the number, because in my mind, I know about the conceptual age of one's identity.

[00:02:20] But yeah, so I've never navigate midlife challenges as a man, as a midlife firm and in the world that we live.

[00:02:28] So I do bring a lot of my own experience into my work.

[00:02:31] And of course, I'm very lucky it's a vocation.

[00:02:34] I love to do what I do.

[00:02:36] So there's a lot of passion in my work.

[00:02:38] So you just said you mainly change life so it's better.

[00:02:42] Do you ever change life so it's worse?

[00:02:46] I had to pick up on that.

[00:02:48] Sorry.

[00:02:49] I endeavor not to.

[00:02:50] But, you know, sometimes when you tell people the truth, it isn't easy.

[00:02:53] When we hear an uncomfortable truth, it's not an easy thing.

[00:02:56] But I do prime the people I work with to say, you know, this is what we're doing.

[00:03:00] This comfort is growth.

[00:03:01] They go together.

[00:03:02] So if you hear an uncomfortable truth, certainly in the domain of a coaching process,

[00:03:07] you're probably hearing something around a mindset block, a belief block, something that's been holding you back.

[00:03:13] And so much of our life is story.

[00:03:16] You know, we have these stories about who we are.

[00:03:19] You know, we say that, you know, I'm a founder or I'm a coach.

[00:03:21] I'm a sportsman or whatever.

[00:03:23] And then we tell that story not just to the world, but we tell it to ourselves.

[00:03:27] And I'm very interested in story because it not only shapes what we do, but it also restricts what we do.

[00:03:33] So we can work on that to a large extent.

[00:03:37] But, yeah, hearing an uncomfortable truth, if it's packaged up in a bit of safety around a coaching space,

[00:03:42] I find most people are okay with that.

[00:03:45] Generally, don't go and do it down the pub, though.

[00:03:47] You know, people don't thank you for telling the truth there.

[00:03:50] Yeah, don't.

[00:03:51] Especially after a few pints.

[00:03:52] Yeah.

[00:03:54] That's why I stick to the lemonade tops, Volker.

[00:03:57] Don't get me started on your shandies.

[00:04:01] I have lots of questions as always.

[00:04:03] Okay, you start then.

[00:04:04] Yeah, like, you know, the concept of, you know, it feels odd to say that, well, as you said, that I'm 52.

[00:04:13] And I'm not.

[00:04:14] I'm 46.

[00:04:15] So, you know, I'm a fresh-faced young man.

[00:04:20] But, I mean, I've, you know, just come back from holiday.

[00:04:24] And, like, the resort where we were, it was just, it was odd that, I mean, so my children are 11 and 14.

[00:04:34] And basically, it was mainly, like, really, well, you know, toddlers, like, young children.

[00:04:41] And, yeah, it was just this weird thing of, like, oh, my God, you know, it was like, oh, we've booked into the wrong resort almost.

[00:04:52] Just off, like, a real, even though I know I'm 46, you know, it's like, well, I don't feel any different to, you know, when I had, like, children in my early 30s.

[00:05:04] When they, you know, they would have been that age.

[00:05:08] And it's something my dad always used to say.

[00:05:10] Like, he'd always sort of talk about if he was out on trips.

[00:05:16] Like, you know, he was in his 80s.

[00:05:19] He's like, oh, well, you know, I don't want to be chatting with the old ones.

[00:05:22] I want to be chatting with the 60-year-olds sort of thing.

[00:05:26] And I never used to sort of get that.

[00:05:28] And now, you know, as I say, especially sort of being in that environment where suddenly, you know, you're like, well, I can sort of see that I've progressed and my children have obviously progressed.

[00:05:42] Yeah.

[00:05:42] You know, it's such a cliche.

[00:05:43] But I'm like, well, I still feel young at heart.

[00:05:46] I still feel, you know, I'm thinking they're probably looking at me like, you know, oh, who's that old guy?

[00:05:54] But, you know, like mentally, yeah.

[00:05:56] I mean, so there isn't really a question in there.

[00:05:59] That was just a long ramble and a humble brag that I've just come back from holiday.

[00:06:04] But, yeah, you know, it is interesting how, you know, well, I guess how, you know, in a lot of ways, your mind, your body doesn't keep up with your mind, I guess.

[00:06:16] It is what it comes down to.

[00:06:18] Yeah.

[00:06:18] Kind of want to speak to that point about self-concept and age.

[00:06:21] So I wrestle with that a lot myself.

[00:06:24] And you're right.

[00:06:25] I remember going on a trip when I was 18 and I was 18.

[00:06:29] So was my mate.

[00:06:30] And his stepdad was there.

[00:06:31] And I think he was in his 30s.

[00:06:33] I remember saying to him, what's it like being really old?

[00:06:36] He just looked at me like it's exactly the same as 18, just, you know, more stuff.

[00:06:40] And I never forgot that.

[00:06:41] But going forward, I've done quite a lot of study into, you know, the mind and how we function.

[00:06:46] And the concept of age and our body, as you rightly say, is often sometimes misaligned.

[00:06:51] And I think this is something we need to attend to.

[00:06:53] Curiously, you mentioned you're 46, David.

[00:06:55] When I was 46, I changed my fitness habits to a large extent.

[00:06:59] I've been doing yoga for quite a long time, maybe six, seven years before that.

[00:07:03] And that's a great discipline.

[00:07:04] But it's not a fitness discipline.

[00:07:06] And so it's good for some things, but not all.

[00:07:08] And I remember joining a CrossFit gym at the time.

[00:07:11] I was focused on, I'm going to need to change.

[00:07:13] I got 50, the big marker coming up in four years.

[00:07:17] And I was absolutely humiliated.

[00:07:19] I was absolute rubbish at what I thought I'd be okay at.

[00:07:23] Because CrossFit is a hard discipline.

[00:07:24] You know, it's a really, you need to be fit, you need to be strong.

[00:07:27] But what I managed to do is to do a lot of the psych work on my mind around, well, if

[00:07:32] you want to change, you have to change how you see yourself and what was compelling to

[00:07:36] you.

[00:07:36] What was compelling to me was to become a 50-year-old athlete, not a 50-year-old with a lot of pains

[00:07:41] and problems.

[00:07:42] So I basically decided to commit for four years, thinking like Olympians.

[00:07:46] They train for four years.

[00:07:47] They're one of my favorite sports people.

[00:07:49] So I'm like, imagine you're an Olympian.

[00:07:50] And I showed up for four years and I just trained constantly on a long-term mindset around, okay,

[00:07:56] what does this look like?

[00:07:58] And that's two years past now.

[00:08:00] And my training, my fitness training is something like four days a week.

[00:08:02] I'll do strength, conditioning.

[00:08:04] I'll swim, I'll box now.

[00:08:07] I do loads and loads of stuff.

[00:08:09] Which had you said that to a 40-year-old, Sal, he said, you know, at 52, you'll be doing this.

[00:08:15] I'd probably say, you know, no chance.

[00:08:17] You know, no chance.

[00:08:18] That's not what I'm going to do.

[00:08:18] I was a stress photographer at the time.

[00:08:20] You know, always super, super busy working, super stressed.

[00:08:23] So actually, I think we can really shift our mindset at a certain age.

[00:08:27] The mindset has to change before the action.

[00:08:30] Now, that doesn't mean I don't understand the bald guy looking back at me in the mirror.

[00:08:35] And also, when I'm in the gym, I'm probably thinking, these people could be my children.

[00:08:40] This is kind of ridiculous.

[00:08:41] But at the same time, there's a playfulness.

[00:08:44] And as an adult, I don't know about you guys, but to be playful and as an adult,

[00:08:47] it can be quite sparse in the world of business and life.

[00:08:50] There's a lot of things to do.

[00:08:52] And to be playful, be joyful, to be able to jump up and down and run around,

[00:08:56] it's an utter privilege.

[00:08:57] So I've made that as a big shift of my time challenges, if you will,

[00:09:04] my age challenges I found was to bring that component into my life,

[00:09:08] not just for fitness, but for play.

[00:09:11] And it's really shifted me.

[00:09:14] It's interesting, actually, you're saying that.

[00:09:16] Because I'm, you know, if I say I'm not 46 anymore, I'm 47.

[00:09:21] So not too much.

[00:09:22] But actually, when I was 46 last year, my son started going into the gym,

[00:09:28] and he was interested in doing that.

[00:09:30] And so it kind of gave me a bit of a kick because he says, you know,

[00:09:34] and I think it was him actually saying, and I knew that, of course, right?

[00:09:37] If you go to the gym, you know, when you're my age, you know,

[00:09:41] just to keep the muscles going, right?

[00:09:43] To not degrade the muscle because we're losing,

[00:09:45] I don't know how much muscle we lose, you know, every day,

[00:09:48] every year as we get older.

[00:09:50] I, you know, I'm back to my six days a week where I'm going to the gym,

[00:09:54] you know, weight training twice a week, you know, cardio three days a week.

[00:09:58] And yeah, it makes a difference, right?

[00:10:01] Yeah.

[00:10:01] And it becomes a bit obsessive, at least for me,

[00:10:05] because I'm always feeling like if, you know, do I die sooner if I don't go and do the weights, right?

[00:10:10] But I don't know.

[00:10:11] It might just be my mind than anything else.

[00:10:16] So what would you recommend in terms of exercise?

[00:10:20] Yeah.

[00:10:20] So just to caveat this, so I took, so I've been a yoga teacher through my 40s.

[00:10:25] So I was training that and I used to teach a lot of yoga.

[00:10:28] And in fact, just to say, you know, nod the yoga gift.

[00:10:32] I mean, it's what helped me become embodied.

[00:10:34] I'd become, I was a photographer for the best part of the decade before that.

[00:10:37] And it was a, you know, I was very successful in it and doing well.

[00:10:41] But I remember being super stressed a lot, you know, a really long time.

[00:10:44] And that's just no way of living.

[00:10:46] I wasn't embodied particularly.

[00:10:48] I was very much in my head.

[00:10:49] I've always been a massive thinker.

[00:10:51] I can binge think all day and all night.

[00:10:53] And binge thinking is almost as bad as binge drinking.

[00:10:56] You know, if you don't get the thoughts in a healthy, regular state, that's your whole experience.

[00:11:02] So yoga was what got me embodied.

[00:11:04] I'd studied Indian philosophy for probably six, seven years before this anyway.

[00:11:09] I'd already had a lot of connection to the East.

[00:11:11] So when I got into yoga and retired from my photography business,

[00:11:15] the act of being physically moving regularly on a daily basis, five times a day after a while,

[00:11:20] it really helped so many levels and layers.

[00:11:23] We probably don't have all the time to talk about this now, but that was a step one of embodiment.

[00:11:28] And step two was like my mid-40s.

[00:11:29] It's like, well, let's move towards athleticism.

[00:11:32] Let's find a slow, gentle curve that's sustainable.

[00:11:35] Because your body is a very different body at that age than when you're younger.

[00:11:38] So in recent times, I've got so interested in it,

[00:11:41] I just happened to do a strength and conditioning trainer course on the side of my psych psychology one,

[00:11:45] because I'm very interested in it.

[00:11:47] I use the knowledge of it.

[00:11:48] I don't do so much teaching myself because my prime work is mindset.

[00:11:53] But I do know how to, you know, these are the guys who train athletes.

[00:11:56] And I was very privileged to train with some great trainers.

[00:11:58] So as an S and C idea, the general rules of this, as any of us, we want to have good muscle mass.

[00:12:05] We want to have good cardiovascular zone too,

[00:12:08] which is being able to consistently go for half an hour plus at a breathing rate,

[00:12:13] which is fairly challenging, but you can still talk and a high VO2 max.

[00:12:17] Now we can get into the technicals, but if you are doing strength work a couple of times a week

[00:12:23] under a good guide, a good PT or something like that,

[00:12:26] you're doing some cardio a couple of times a week and you're doing some high intensity,

[00:12:30] that's going to be the baseline.

[00:12:33] And then as you get into it, you can go with the real market.

[00:12:36] There are lots of markers about what we should do.

[00:12:38] But VO2 max has been cited as one of the proxy indicators of how long we're going to live.

[00:12:44] I've done those horrible VO2 max machines with the mask on and that.

[00:12:48] It's nasty.

[00:12:49] It's really horrible.

[00:12:51] But you know what it is.

[00:12:52] You know what your VO2 max is.

[00:12:54] And there are certain training protocols that you can do.

[00:12:57] But it depends where you're at on the curve.

[00:12:58] If you haven't moved for a while, start easy.

[00:13:01] But here's what I would say.

[00:13:03] Commit long term.

[00:13:04] It changes everything.

[00:13:05] This is the mindset piece.

[00:13:06] If you think I'm going to go to the gym for 12 weeks and get fit,

[00:13:10] you're just deluding yourself.

[00:13:12] You know, you'll see a few changes and that's okay.

[00:13:14] But it's not going to stick.

[00:13:16] But if you want to look and feel a different way and have your whole system working well

[00:13:21] for the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, then commit in that way.

[00:13:26] So make it a lifestyle choice, not an add-on.

[00:13:28] I think the mindset thing will take us forward.

[00:13:30] It's what worked for me.

[00:13:32] And then you can get interested whether you go for a good PT.

[00:13:35] You might join a particular discipline like CrossFit or F45 or High Rocks or whatever you like to do, triathlons.

[00:13:43] And from there, you can find your sweet spot.

[00:13:45] Because we all like different stuff.

[00:13:47] But finding movement at midlife when sedentary life is, you know, we're all sitting as we're doing this podcast.

[00:13:55] You know, it's a sedentary piece of our life.

[00:13:57] So if we have more time like that all day, we want to see if we can change that, in my view,

[00:14:02] to find out where's more movement available, how can we put it in.

[00:14:07] Hi folks, it's Volker here.

[00:14:09] I hope you enjoy this week's episode.

[00:14:11] As you know, I coach executives.

[00:14:13] Whether that is for leadership skills or for sales coaching or working as a therapist.

[00:14:19] There are a few ways I can help you to get unstuck, improve your work-life balance and become a better version of yourself.

[00:14:26] So you will be more productive and have more time for your family.

[00:14:31] Whatever it is you want to achieve, you can join my client list of people from General Electric, DHL or Pepsi.

[00:14:40] Book a free exploratory call via my website www.opnat.us.

[00:14:47] That's O-B-N-A-T dot U-S.

[00:14:51] Now back to the show.

[00:14:52] So I've got a response to that.

[00:15:00] In that, yeah, movement has always been critical to my lifestyle.

[00:15:07] In that, you know, in that I know that my, well, you know, if I have a cold or something and I've had, you know,

[00:15:14] more than a few days from exercising, it really affects my mental state.

[00:15:20] So back in February, I was playing football and basically broke my, well, dislocated my ankle, broke my leg in three places, had a two-hour operation.

[00:15:33] I mean, you know, so now, so basically all the joy, you know, I guess I'm like, am I being overly dramatic?

[00:15:42] But actually, yeah, a lot of the joy of my life, you know, has been taken away.

[00:15:48] I mean, you know, and I think at the start when I literally couldn't move, you know, my mindset was quite strong.

[00:15:58] But I've found that, and again, sort of, you know, as I say, I've just been on holiday and we went on a boat trip.

[00:16:05] And, you know, there's at the end, they sort of pull up on a, you know, in a nice part of the sea.

[00:16:11] And everyone's like jumping off, you know, this ship.

[00:16:15] And basically, you know, like my kids and my wife are like, no, you're not doing that.

[00:16:19] So, you know, I'm basically recovering, but I'm not recovered.

[00:16:24] And again, I guess that sort of fed into this whole, like, I feel old, you know, feeling as well.

[00:16:31] So, yeah, I guess, you know, and I am sort of, you know, I'm now on the cross trainer.

[00:16:37] You know, I've been, I mean, like swimming was like the first thing that I was getting back into.

[00:16:44] Probably against, you know, doctor's orders in terms of how long or, you know, but yeah, I mean, I guess.

[00:16:52] Yeah, you know, so even like something like walking the dog would be, you know, my natural sort of break or boost or however.

[00:17:02] And, you know, of actually yoga perhaps is sort of something that I might be able to get into.

[00:17:09] But yeah, sorry, it's turned into another ramble.

[00:17:10] But yeah, how can I keep my mindset strong?

[00:17:15] And, you know, I know it's a bit of a cliche.

[00:17:18] I think it was Tony Robbins.

[00:17:20] Is it Tony Robbins?

[00:17:21] But he was like, you change your physical state, you change your mental state.

[00:17:26] Yeah, I guess I've sort of found it difficult to change my mental state over the last few months.

[00:17:35] Understandable.

[00:17:35] Well, I'm sorry to hear that because it's, you know, that's just, it sucks, isn't it?

[00:17:38] When you do something like football or whatever you love to do and for an accident or something happens where that's taken away from you, what it needs naming.

[00:17:46] Like it's just hard.

[00:17:48] That's hard and it sucks and it's not what you want.

[00:17:50] And it's tough.

[00:17:52] And that's the reality.

[00:17:54] I think, and this is where I sort of put my psychological lens on, which both from psychology and disciplines like Buddhism and mindfulness and those.

[00:18:02] It's where, or how do we embrace that?

[00:18:04] And I don't mean in a happy, clappy way, you know, because why would you embrace something you don't want?

[00:18:09] But an acceptance of, okay, well, here's where I'm at.

[00:18:14] Is it actually a state of autonomy?

[00:18:16] Because all the time we're in resistance.

[00:18:17] And by the way, I have an autoimmune condition, which sometimes I'm not well at all.

[00:18:22] I know it's taken me out of training for months.

[00:18:23] So I kind of, I hear you when you say the good stuff I love to do has been taken away and it's painful.

[00:18:30] But the resistance to what's going on, I found in my own, my health journey and my mindset has been the biggest issue.

[00:18:37] And if I can transcend the resistance, not again, just be naming this.

[00:18:41] It's not a state of happy acceptance.

[00:18:42] It's like, this is really rough, but I accept it for where it's at.

[00:18:46] And then, and that acceptance is a bit of a, it's almost an outbreath with it.

[00:18:51] And then, okay, what can I do?

[00:18:53] So for me, if I can't do strong training, it might look like walking only.

[00:18:57] So it's always about what can I do and, and avoiding the comparison.

[00:19:01] Because if we get caught up in, well, I used to play football or I could deadlift this.

[00:19:05] It's like, well, that's just the past.

[00:19:06] That's a concept.

[00:19:07] What can you do today?

[00:19:08] If it's like, well, I can walk the dog.

[00:19:10] Yeah, the leg's okay.

[00:19:11] I'm kind of ankles all right.

[00:19:12] Okay.

[00:19:13] I walk the dog a bit longer.

[00:19:14] And I think that's where we can start to find shift out of a difficult space.

[00:19:20] You know, adversity is where you've been through.

[00:19:22] And for sure, there's nothing more humbling than when the body does not function.

[00:19:26] As you said, when you're in your mind, well, I'm 25, I've got this.

[00:19:30] You're like, oh, come on, my back's killing me.

[00:19:32] Can't jump off the boat.

[00:19:33] Then it's like, oh, maybe I haven't got this.

[00:19:35] But actually, yeah, this is a funny thing, isn't it?

[00:19:39] You know, if we go into certain disciplines I've had from really hard trainers and they're

[00:19:43] like, yeah, come on, push, push.

[00:19:45] And of course, I've been in yoga, which is more gentle, compassionate.

[00:19:47] And I think there's a place for both.

[00:19:49] There's a place to push ourselves sometimes when we've maybe, I don't know, been a bit

[00:19:54] apathetic and we're not getting around to something.

[00:19:55] And there's a time for compassion, which is like, you've had a rough ride.

[00:19:59] Easy, easy on yourself.

[00:20:01] Because would you be easy on your mate or your child or your partner?

[00:20:05] I bet you would.

[00:20:06] So being a little gentle on oneself.

[00:20:08] And yeah, you know, mixed up in that is, yeah, but what can I do?

[00:20:11] What's possible?

[00:20:12] I think that's one of the best ways.

[00:20:14] And we know neurologically, if we feel shut down, which most people will turn as depression,

[00:20:19] that's the free state of the nervous system.

[00:20:21] What's called ventral vagal.

[00:20:22] We're in a shutdown state.

[00:20:23] I had no choice.

[00:20:26] Always about finding where do I have some choice?

[00:20:28] So it's moving into the sympathetic nervous system, the active, which is often the moving

[00:20:33] into the fight state, going towards the problem.

[00:20:35] How can I do something today?

[00:20:37] And that takes us out of those low states.

[00:20:40] You know, that's a really, really important lesson that I've learned, both this neurological

[00:20:45] understanding, but also an experiential when I've had to come back from an autoimmune flare.

[00:20:51] So self-compassion comes to mind.

[00:20:53] David, you practice self-compassion.

[00:20:56] So yeah, all right.

[00:20:58] Define self-compassion.

[00:21:01] Define self-compassion.

[00:21:03] Sal, you want to do it?

[00:21:04] I'll have a go.

[00:21:06] And I actually, one of my joyful things is etymology and definition, because we all use

[00:21:12] words and words are beautiful, aren't they?

[00:21:13] It's how we all communicate and understand one another.

[00:21:15] But actually, one person's self-compassion is another one's self-barration.

[00:21:20] So I'll break it down to two things.

[00:21:22] So self, yes, it's about you, the internal world.

[00:21:25] And compassion, come with passion, there's heart and care.

[00:21:30] But actually, compassion is an active state, in my view.

[00:21:33] It's not sympathy.

[00:21:35] Oh, poor you or poor me.

[00:21:37] This sucks.

[00:21:37] That's sympathy.

[00:21:39] Compassion is, yeah, this really sucks.

[00:21:41] This is rough.

[00:21:42] This is not what I want.

[00:21:43] And I'm really struggling.

[00:21:44] I'm just going to have to get through today.

[00:21:47] Well, how could it be anything different?

[00:21:49] I broke my leg or I've got this condition.

[00:21:51] So you're doing all right, mate.

[00:21:53] You know, you're doing okay.

[00:21:54] You're doing a good one today.

[00:21:56] And it's that being with-ness.

[00:21:58] I think this is more of an Eastern mindset, but being with that what's going on without

[00:22:04] any judgment.

[00:22:05] Because I don't know about you guys, but I had a lot of, you know, the inner critic.

[00:22:08] We talk about our voice within our own mind, which can be self-damning.

[00:22:12] Like, oh, God, look, you messed that up.

[00:22:14] Or if you were fitter, you wouldn't have broken your leg.

[00:22:16] All this stuff that we can say to ourselves.

[00:22:20] That, in my experience, needs quietening.

[00:22:22] And that then becomes the answer to bringing up compassion.

[00:22:25] So the internal conversation is where either it becomes a harsh judgment or, as Volker's

[00:22:32] saying, move towards something more compassionate.

[00:22:34] You know, that's my interpretation.

[00:22:36] Volker, what would you say?

[00:22:38] I had time to Google it now, so I'm a bit cheating.

[00:22:43] But no, I would agree with what you called it, right?

[00:22:46] So second passion, right?

[00:22:48] With feeling, you know, feeling for yourself, you know.

[00:22:51] And as you say, not feeling sorry for yourself.

[00:22:54] You know, but being empathetic with yourself, right?

[00:22:57] Being okay with, you know, you not being okay.

[00:23:02] Yeah.

[00:23:02] You know, one thing, one tool I found, and my partner would always call me, is that when

[00:23:06] I've had a, so when I have a flare, what happens is my inner system ulcerates, my whole gut,

[00:23:11] internal system ulcerates.

[00:23:13] It's horrible.

[00:23:14] And what can happen in the initial stages is anger.

[00:23:17] Because, oh, God, here I are again.

[00:23:18] I've had it for 40 years.

[00:23:19] I know it's, I know it's origin, it's origin's in a bit of trauma, but anyway, so it comes

[00:23:25] up and I, oh, I should just look at me and say, right, if I was in that state, what would

[00:23:31] you say to me?

[00:23:32] I'd be like, well, I'll make sure you're okay.

[00:23:33] I'll give you what you need.

[00:23:34] You're just like, right, do the same to yourself.

[00:23:36] I'm like, thanks for the reminder.

[00:23:38] And we forget, don't we?

[00:23:39] It's so easy.

[00:23:40] If it was your partner or you wanted your children, you'd be like, no, no, come on,

[00:23:44] let's, what do we need to do?

[00:23:45] What do you need?

[00:23:45] But with ourselves, that conversation, that, I think that invitation for a bit of gentleness

[00:23:51] can go out the window.

[00:23:53] It's certainly being a bloke, you know, it can be a bit like, come on, mate, sort it out,

[00:23:57] which does not help us at all.

[00:24:00] Exactly.

[00:24:01] And, you know, what David, yeah, I think it was David that mentioned, right?

[00:24:05] Or you mentioned it, the negative self-talk, right?

[00:24:07] We so easily talk negatively to ourselves and you have to break through that, right?

[00:24:13] You need to first of all self-awareness, right?

[00:24:16] Recognize it and then start, you know, positive self-talk.

[00:24:20] Because we listen to ourselves 24 hours, right?

[00:24:23] It's a lot of listening going on if you just talk to ourselves.

[00:24:26] And if that is negative, it's not a good start.

[00:24:30] No, it's such a good point.

[00:24:31] And I do loads of work on this with the mindset piece of my work because we all go here, right?

[00:24:35] That inner narrative, the inner story is shaping everything that's going on, what we think,

[00:24:40] what we do, how we're acting.

[00:24:44] And I question where it comes from.

[00:24:46] So if I'm working with an individual, I might be like, so say more, what's that about?

[00:24:51] What's the tone of voice?

[00:24:52] It could be like, oh, you know, mess this up, but that didn't work.

[00:24:55] Okay, so where's that voice coming from?

[00:24:57] What's its intent?

[00:24:59] And it's a bit like following the neurological rabbit hole down into the mind and saying,

[00:25:03] where did that?

[00:25:04] Not necessarily where did it come from as in like it came to your childhood, but it's like,

[00:25:07] what does it serve is better.

[00:25:09] So yeah, normally these early experiences in our life form things, but what does it serve?

[00:25:14] And I know when I've done my own therapeutic work, as in I've had my own therapist or I've

[00:25:18] worked with coaches and we've ever gone to this question, like, what does it serve?

[00:25:21] So my own inner voice, I'm very happy to share this, my own very critical, I work with

[00:25:28] psychotherapist and he called it the dictator.

[00:25:29] And it's absolutely the right archetype because it was like, you know, you this, you that finger.

[00:25:35] And our mind has all these aspects and parts and archetypal pieces.

[00:25:39] But the indicator in my mind, it's original intent was nice.

[00:25:45] It was kind.

[00:25:46] It was actually, I'm afraid you're going to get hurt, kid.

[00:25:49] So I'm going to keep you safe.

[00:25:50] So don't do this.

[00:25:51] Don't take a risk.

[00:25:52] Don't do that.

[00:25:53] But then it become an unfortunate, let's say like in a smoke alarm when it keeps going off,

[00:25:58] even though you've only just slightly burnt the toast, it became like a trip and it kept

[00:26:02] going off with every potential threat.

[00:26:03] Yeah.

[00:26:04] So I had to do the inner work on like, well, where do I feel threatened?

[00:26:08] Is it about, you know, and it's all, you know, it's all internal threats, not physical threats.

[00:26:13] Will I look silly?

[00:26:15] Will I be judged for this real?

[00:26:17] Whatever that is.

[00:26:18] So on the threat pathway, anything that was perceived as a psychological threat in my mind

[00:26:24] was then triggering this dictator voice.

[00:26:27] And the dictator voice, of course, it's code one was, well, let's try and keep you safe

[00:26:31] because it's linked to the nervous system.

[00:26:32] So in many ways, it becomes this over dysfunctional amygdala style tripping where we end up trapped

[00:26:41] by the damn voice instead of it being helpful.

[00:26:44] Like, you know, hey, you messed up there.

[00:26:46] You need to, you know, learn from the mistake because there's a time we need to learn and

[00:26:51] there's a time we need to then shut that down because if it's constant, then it's like,

[00:26:57] you know, you listen to a really poor radio station or podcast, but not this one, of course.

[00:27:01] And you think, I really need to change, right?

[00:27:03] I got to get a good one.

[00:27:05] You just change the damn channel.

[00:27:07] But internally, we can't change the inner channel unless we understand its neurological,

[00:27:12] emotional, meaning-based connection.

[00:27:13] So for example, my pathway was, oh, so this is trying to keep me safe.

[00:27:18] That was the original intent.

[00:27:19] The judgment was about fear.

[00:27:21] The fear was about threat.

[00:27:22] And I didn't feel safe.

[00:27:24] So when I can unpack, because it's like, well, what's going to happen to you?

[00:27:28] Yeah, you might look silly.

[00:27:29] So what?

[00:27:30] Or you might mess up there.

[00:27:32] Okay, you'll learn.

[00:27:33] And then suddenly we go, oh, so my current brain can really get this on board.

[00:27:37] So I can, the critic will still pop up from time to time, but then it can be balanced

[00:27:41] with a yes, and I will deal with this.

[00:27:44] Or yes, and I will learn from this.

[00:27:46] Or yes, and I will mess up just like every other infallible human being.

[00:27:50] And no one's paying attention anyway, because half of them staring at the phone,

[00:27:53] and half of them thinking about their own inner dictator.

[00:27:56] So now, oh, I'm liberated.

[00:27:58] So there's my experience of that, that inner, almost the opposite to the self-compassion voice.

[00:28:03] That's what I found has happened for me.

[00:28:06] Man Up, Man Down is sponsored by Well Doing.

[00:28:08] As someone who has seen a counsellor for a number of years, I think their approach is great.

[00:28:12] They want you to find the mental health professional who is right for you.

[00:28:15] You can filter your search to highlight therapists with expertise where you need it,

[00:28:20] or you can pay to use their personalised matching service.

[00:28:23] The people who run Well Doing are experts in mental wellbeing,

[00:28:26] and they also have loads of posts and interviews to keep your mental health in good shape.

[00:28:31] Take a look at welldoing.org.

[00:28:34] Thanks for sharing that.

[00:28:36] There's a lot of inner parts work there.

[00:28:38] Yeah, for sure.

[00:28:39] We have these inner parts that they all want us to be well,

[00:28:44] but they have conflicting ways of telling us, as you probably would know.

[00:28:49] Sorry, David, I didn't want to jump in.

[00:28:51] There's several things there.

[00:28:53] For a start, I think it, and I might have already said this,

[00:28:58] but it's almost now that I'm healed in terms of I'm not...

[00:29:05] I guess there's sort of...

[00:29:08] And again, sort of talking about, you know, your identity and how, you know,

[00:29:14] sort of sport and exercise is part of my identity.

[00:29:18] It's like, well, actually, on holiday, it's like, well, I'm not...

[00:29:23] I haven't got my boot.

[00:29:24] So it's kind of, you know, the outside world aren't like,

[00:29:28] oh, well, he's not jumping off that, or he's not doing this because of that.

[00:29:35] And it's, I guess, yeah, I just have a constant...

[00:29:39] Well, you know, my inner critic is, you know, you're being lazy.

[00:29:45] And I guess, yeah, that, you know, perhaps that's what it is.

[00:29:49] You know, as I say, it's almost like the sort of...

[00:29:52] The more my recovery goes on, the more that I'm, as you say,

[00:29:58] like the conflict or the friction is there because I'm like,

[00:30:06] oh, well, you know, yeah, I can walk, but I still can't, you know,

[00:30:10] run or play football.

[00:30:13] And, you know, and again, on holiday, they were like...

[00:30:17] Like my son did a football club and then they had adults football afterwards.

[00:30:20] And they're like, oh, are you staying?

[00:30:22] I'm like, God, no.

[00:30:23] And then they all sort of laughed.

[00:30:25] And I was sort of really wanting to say, no, no,

[00:30:26] it's not because I'm not fit enough or I can't play.

[00:30:30] Actually, I'm amazing.

[00:30:31] But, you know, it's...

[00:30:33] Yeah, I physically cannot, like, do it at the moment.

[00:30:36] But obviously I couldn't sort of say all that.

[00:30:41] And they probably forgot about it the moment that I walked off.

[00:30:46] But, yeah, you know, I'm still talking about that.

[00:30:49] Like it was a, you know, proper personal insult to me.

[00:30:53] So, yeah, anyway, that's all I was going to say.

[00:30:55] Sorry.

[00:30:56] It's very much, you know, talking about all my injuries or my mental decline.

[00:31:03] Well, I want to speak to that because I coach a lot of founders.

[00:31:07] And generally most people don't come to me when things are going really well.

[00:31:10] Yeah.

[00:31:10] Generally there's some things happen.

[00:31:12] Like they're at a block.

[00:31:13] And it's normally a psychological, emotional block.

[00:31:14] These are intelligent people.

[00:31:16] But if something happened, it's a tipping point.

[00:31:17] And they can't figure it out.

[00:31:19] And that's...

[00:31:19] Because most...

[00:31:20] Like I say to a lot of people, it's easy to go fast downhill.

[00:31:24] It is.

[00:31:25] It's hard to go fast uphill.

[00:31:27] And, you know, when we're going uphill, there's a problem.

[00:31:29] Got a physical injury.

[00:31:30] So, you're coming to a mindset block in your life.

[00:31:33] Or an emotional thing's come up and it's like, I don't know how to deal with it.

[00:31:36] That's when the hard stuff kicks in.

[00:31:39] Because it's always easy when it's easy.

[00:31:40] And then it's tough.

[00:31:41] Like, my legs are still killing me.

[00:31:43] I can't play a bit of football.

[00:31:44] I really want to.

[00:31:45] And then all the other stuff around.

[00:31:47] How does that make me look?

[00:31:48] It will always...

[00:31:49] The tough stuff happens when things aren't going our way.

[00:31:53] I think this is where this state of acceptance and steeliness is quite a nice mix.

[00:32:02] So, acceptance is quite a gentle...

[00:32:04] It's also a very powerful state because you own...

[00:32:06] You know, it's your choice.

[00:32:08] So, acceptance is actually a state of power.

[00:32:09] It's not surrender.

[00:32:10] And even then, that's a state of power.

[00:32:12] Giving in is perhaps a different state.

[00:32:13] But like, okay, this is all I can do today.

[00:32:15] Or I can't do that right now.

[00:32:17] That's a choice, which is autonomy.

[00:32:19] But a steeliness, which might be like, well, I can actually walk a bit quicker today.

[00:32:23] Or I can do that today.

[00:32:25] Or I can speak to a difficult, I don't know, co-director today.

[00:32:29] It's always finding these little pieces.

[00:32:32] Because incremental change is sometimes where the reality is for a lot of us.

[00:32:36] You know, exponential change is like terrifying.

[00:32:38] Just completely changing your whole life and mindset.

[00:32:40] It's a big deal.

[00:32:41] But finding those incremental changes and consistently repeating it.

[00:32:45] That's how cells actually grow.

[00:32:47] Cellular, you know, we look at cells in the body.

[00:32:48] They grow incrementally.

[00:32:50] So incremental change with sustainableness is really good.

[00:32:54] And I think some of that steeliness, which is, you know, dogginess.

[00:32:58] Like, right, I'm going to play football again.

[00:33:00] I don't know when.

[00:33:01] It might be five years from now.

[00:33:02] But I'll kick that damn ball when I'll have a bit of a laugh.

[00:33:04] Even if you just do it with the kids.

[00:33:06] So if there's an inner decision of steeliness, then we can take the timeline away.

[00:33:11] And I think that's one of the issues I see, certainly, with a lot of our mindset stuff.

[00:33:15] Is I just want a problem sorted now.

[00:33:17] I want my injury now.

[00:33:18] You know, I want to overcome my business challenge now.

[00:33:22] If we can extend that timeline, then there's a lot more space to work.

[00:33:28] I think this ties back into what we said at the beginning.

[00:33:30] It's like, well, if we have a concept of time at midlife, which is, Christ, time's running out.

[00:33:35] Which, by the way, it is.

[00:33:37] So that's a galvanizing force.

[00:33:38] But at the same time, there may be, I mean, you're 46.

[00:33:42] You might have another 40 years to go.

[00:33:44] You might have 50.

[00:33:45] So it's quite a long time.

[00:33:46] There's quite a long time to do things.

[00:33:48] So sometimes we want to use, this is from existentialism.

[00:33:51] I studied that for quite a good period.

[00:33:54] Existentialism can seem a bit miserable.

[00:33:55] But they're like, well, you know, everything ends.

[00:33:57] So what are you going to do about it?

[00:33:59] I think it can sharpen the mind.

[00:34:01] But we don't want to get in a state of rushing and terror because it's like, well, there's actually time.

[00:34:07] There is time.

[00:34:07] It's time to heal.

[00:34:08] It's time to grow.

[00:34:09] It's time to become the person you want to be.

[00:34:11] There is time.

[00:34:13] And as Martin Heidegger said, you are time.

[00:34:16] If you've ever read his quote on that, the existential thinker, which is a really profound principle.

[00:34:21] Humans are time.

[00:34:23] We don't have time as a resource, a thing.

[00:34:26] He would say we are time.

[00:34:28] So there's an existential conundrum to get your head around.

[00:34:32] I mean, but yeah, I think, you know, we've, we're so, you know, conditioned to having everything happen quickly.

[00:34:42] You know, whether that's like ordering, well, you know, watching a film, you know, whereas before we'd, you know, on a Friday night be like, right, we'll drive down to Blockbuster, sort through what they've got.

[00:34:57] And with videos, you know, you'd have to rewind it before you took it back.

[00:35:01] Whereas now, yeah, you know, you just sit down.

[00:35:04] And I often sort of talk about, well, actually, you know, watching a film on a Friday or Saturday night was an event because you would have to go out.

[00:35:13] And, you know, and it's, you know, and often sort of, you know, something that I ponder in the, as, you know, mankind, we're so obsessed with making things quicker and easier rather than is that more fulfilling?

[00:35:28] Is that a more fulfilling way of doing it?

[00:35:31] Or, yeah.

[00:35:33] So, um.

[00:35:33] Great, it's a great point.

[00:35:34] Yeah.

[00:35:34] You know, the whole of our trajectory of modern life.

[00:35:37] I mean, I've been around 52 years.

[00:35:38] So I, I was around when there were three channels as a kid on TV.

[00:35:41] If anyone's young listening to this, they'd be like, what's it on about?

[00:35:43] There was a BBC one, I think BBC two and ITV.

[00:35:46] I remember channel four was a phenomenon and channel five was mind boggling.

[00:35:49] So, you know, we've, we've, we've come from a generation that's had different surroundings and experience around media and consumption and blockbusters.

[00:35:58] And you're absolutely right.

[00:35:59] The pace of life has accelerated.

[00:36:00] We're all, we're all carried along by it to some extent.

[00:36:04] And I think this is where the Eastern arts, where mindfulness, Buddhism, existentialism, a lot of the Eastern principles where they all come in and talk at meta level about, okay, being aware of self.

[00:36:15] So you're not caught up in, for want of a better word, the rat race.

[00:36:19] Yeah.

[00:36:20] You got a lot of stuff to do and you have digital communications and you've got Netflix and, but you can be at a state of mind, which is transcendent to that.

[00:36:28] It seems to me we need that now that we've everything, because we didn't need it before because life was a little bit easier.

[00:36:34] There was space to breathe and be and muck about and be bored.

[00:36:38] God forbid being bored today.

[00:36:40] I actually think we should run boredom classes for the, if you want to become an elite human,

[00:36:44] become bored because actually that's where the mind changes.

[00:36:48] But what does everyone do if we're bored today?

[00:36:51] And we can all go for it, you know, the digital syringe.

[00:36:54] Because the discomfort we don't like and we're always moving away from it.

[00:36:58] So when my fortune experience with the more Eastern principles, it's like, yeah, be with discomfort, accept discomfort, make it, bring it in.

[00:37:07] Because actually, if you're bored or agitated, rather than trying to get rid of it, if you can integrate it, then you have a lot more choice.

[00:37:15] So it doesn't mean you have to stay there, but it doesn't mean you have to, you're controlled by it.

[00:37:19] For me, I love the experience of making autonomous people, becoming autonomous.

[00:37:23] You can't be autonomous if you can't handle discomfort.

[00:37:26] Just can't.

[00:37:27] So if we can learn some ways to do that, suddenly our world expands and it's really liberating.

[00:37:34] Yeah, I mean, again, that sort of two concepts that I've thought about, like, you know, while being on holiday is like one, you know, 10, well, 20 years ago, if you went on holiday, then work or, you know, no one would really be able to get hold of you.

[00:37:54] And, you know, and so, you know, there's that aspect.

[00:37:57] And again, as I say, I was sort of surrounded by younger families and at dinner, you know, literally all of them were on their screens.

[00:38:08] And I'm not saying that as a family, there weren't times when we wouldn't have all been spotted looking at our screens, but it did make me think, yeah, what, where are we going with this?

[00:38:20] Because, you know, again, it's like, well, yeah, we've got these amazingly technological devices, but are we all like more content than we would have been in this resort 30 years ago?

[00:38:35] Well, I bet as a lot of people have done research and my guess so far is that the answer that would be categorically no, we're not more content.

[00:38:42] Because if you look at the rise of anxiety and depression and lots of issues around the world that people are sadly having to contend with, you also look at the amount of stimulus in the world.

[00:38:51] You know, the amount of stimulus that the brain has to take in cognitive load, it's called in psychology, it fills up our brain.

[00:38:56] If you're running a business and you're running a family and running your own life, there's a lot of things to think about and add in a phone, put on a bunch of platforms, et cetera, et cetera, and no switch off.

[00:39:07] That's where this is where burnout comes on.

[00:39:09] Stress is not bad, but this constant bombardment.

[00:39:13] So stress should peak and drop.

[00:39:15] That's how it should be.

[00:39:16] Peak and drop.

[00:39:16] But if we constantly, I must do this, must do that.

[00:39:19] We're in a sympathetic nervous system state.

[00:39:21] We can't downregulate.

[00:39:23] Body doesn't heal.

[00:39:24] And at some point, it's going to go very wrong for any of us who are stuck in that state.

[00:39:29] And I think the distinction here, and I say this to a lot of guys I'm coaching, is that you have to make the conscious effort to find time, headspace, difference.

[00:39:39] And for me, it's fitness.

[00:39:40] You cannot be in your head if you are pushing something twice your body weight along a floor, like this heavy sled.

[00:39:46] You can't do it.

[00:39:47] You have to be all in.

[00:39:49] Or boxing, or whatever the discipline is that demands you your presence.

[00:39:53] And I think in today's world, my experience of, well, I'm in my head a lot because I work in psychology.

[00:39:58] It's a very head game.

[00:39:59] But how much can I help people drop into the body?

[00:40:02] I work with that.

[00:40:02] And then when I need to decompress, there's nothing that beats a barbell.

[00:40:07] And I'm talking about this with absolute passion, you know, the piece of metal.

[00:40:10] I'm telling you, like 10 years ago, in my 40s, I wasn't that bloke.

[00:40:14] I'm not a big guy.

[00:40:15] I'm quite small.

[00:40:15] I'm like 66 kilos or something.

[00:40:17] I'm quite a small frame.

[00:40:18] I'm strong, but I'm quite small.

[00:40:20] So I'm not like one of the beefy boys who go to the gym.

[00:40:22] I was always like the little fella.

[00:40:24] But now I'm like, no, I'm all right with that.

[00:40:26] I'm all right with the hench stuff because I know how it makes me feel.

[00:40:31] But I think my point here is alluding to is understand that we have to choose things to shape our world because otherwise it will shape us.

[00:40:39] Whether it's digital communications, a mindset predicated on past behavior, you know, adversity through an injury.

[00:40:46] Where do we have choice is the most important thing.

[00:40:50] And starting to build that in will change how you think, change how you feel, and evidently change what you do in your life.

[00:40:56] This is great.

[00:40:57] I'm taking avid notes here.

[00:41:00] There's no questions from my end because, you know, I agree with probably all of what you're saying.

[00:41:06] There was an article recently I read about boredom, right?

[00:41:09] We're not bored anymore.

[00:41:10] We're constantly entertained.

[00:41:13] And I remember very vividly when I got my first Palm Pilot many, many years ago as well.

[00:41:20] And I said to my, I think it was to my parents or so, I said, I don't have to be bored anymore.

[00:41:27] Isn't that great?

[00:41:27] I can now, I was in halls at the time, I can now watch my laundry and I can do something at the same time, right?

[00:41:34] I don't have to just sit there.

[00:41:37] And that's how it started.

[00:41:38] And now obviously the devices are internet connected and, you know, and so on.

[00:41:43] And so there's, I think there's lots, lots to be said about, you know, if I say unplugging.

[00:41:50] I was flying back from Berlin last night and it was just nice to be offline for an hour and a half.

[00:41:55] Not having, you know, not having to check, not that I have to check now, right?

[00:41:59] But, you know, you don't have the urge because you know you're offline.

[00:42:03] And then you start going through your inbox and go like, oh, which, what, what, who can I reply to?

[00:42:08] And, you know, just, just doing nothing.

[00:42:10] Just, it's quite nice sometimes.

[00:42:13] We forget that because we're so busy.

[00:42:16] I agree.

[00:42:16] And it speaks to the point around environment design.

[00:42:19] So environment design is, it says, changing your environment to be more conducive to something you want.

[00:42:25] So if you've got a phone in your eyeline, even in your peripheral, it's a visual marker.

[00:42:31] And because we know the phone is a thing that's got cool stuff like Instagram or emails or wonderful things people might want to connect with you,

[00:42:38] then you'll reach for it.

[00:42:40] Whereas the phone's run out of power or you're on an aircraft or you literally can't do it,

[00:42:45] it becomes an option that's taken away.

[00:42:49] And we can't beat the world, but we can be conscious, I think, around that.

[00:42:54] So it's, yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of pieces here.

[00:42:56] But I think one of the biggest things is self-awareness.

[00:42:59] Be intentional.

[00:43:00] I think about, you know, what do I want?

[00:43:03] I think this is one of the questions I drop in the coaches.

[00:43:04] What do you actually want?

[00:43:06] What do you want to do?

[00:43:07] How do you want to be?

[00:43:08] Then that intentional clarity can help, whether it's fitness, whether it's business, whether it's getting off the phone, whatever it is.

[00:43:16] But a bit of intentionality will go a long way.

[00:43:20] Well, sadly, we're out of time.

[00:43:23] But, I mean, as we often say, it'd be great to get you back at some point and, you know, talk more in depth on lots of the things that we've talked about, Sal.

[00:43:35] And a lot of the things we haven't, you know, personally, a lot of the things you've said have sort of helped me.

[00:43:41] But, yes, I mean, if there are other people that want to get in touch to feel some metal with you or, well, you know, do some yoga, how do they get in touch?

[00:43:54] Okay.

[00:43:54] Well, I don't do yoga or metal with anyone now.

[00:43:57] I mean, generally my business is coaching.

[00:43:59] So, I mean, if you're a buddy, I'll train with you.

[00:44:01] I've, yeah, so I talk about that because we're kind of talking about my personal view on some of these things, which I really wanted to share because I just see how powerful it is.

[00:44:10] But, yeah, so if people want to get in touch, I do a lot of work with founders, a lot of work with guys, normally over 40.

[00:44:16] Generally, there's something around, I don't know what it is about 40, but we wake up.

[00:44:19] And normally that wake up is discomfort.

[00:44:21] And then we'll go and figure something out.

[00:44:23] So, I work with people in that domain.

[00:44:24] I always have a conversation with people first because it's like if I need to understand something can help, I do.

[00:44:29] So, do you put contacts in the show notes?

[00:44:32] Yeah.

[00:44:33] Cool.

[00:44:34] Then if you put a simple link, you can check out my site.

[00:44:37] You can find me on Instagram and LinkedIn.

[00:44:40] And, of course, I do run my own podcast where I talk all things about this and go on in a lot more depth.

[00:44:46] Thank you so much for being our guest.

[00:44:48] And, yeah, we should continue the conversation.

[00:44:50] Love to.

[00:44:51] Yeah, it's really great to talk, guys.

[00:44:52] And, yeah, absolutely.

[00:44:53] We can talk all things midlife, men, mind.

[00:44:55] I'm very happy to because I live there too.

[00:44:58] Brilliant.

[00:44:59] Thanks very much.

[00:45:00] Thanks so much, guys.

[00:45:01] Thanks, Sal.

[00:45:05] Thanks for listening to this week's episode.

[00:45:07] Feel free to reach out to Fulker or David via our website, www.manupdown.com,

[00:45:13] or podcast at manupdown.com,

[00:45:15] with any feedback or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future.

[00:45:20] Hear you again soon.

[00:45:20] Thank you.

[00:45:21] Thank you.

[00:45:21] Thank you.