Reclaiming Masculinity and Healing the Father Wound

[00:00:00] Well, that was another fascinating episode with George Stoymanov, I think I pronounced that correctly. Obviously very, very passionate about his work. And I was just saying that we stopped recording and we still sort of had a little conversation. And George sort of used a perfect phrase, which I'm like, I'm slightly frustrated we didn't get that in the recording.

[00:00:29] But he sort of said, you know, if you talk about masculinity, then people are like, oh no, he's, you know, an Andrew Tate person. But if you speak about sort of your feelings, then you're seen as like some sort of new age hippie. And yeah, it was fascinating about how, well, yeah, that we, yeah, it's almost like you've got to be one or the other. There's no in between. Yeah.

[00:00:57] Or society says there's no in between, perhaps. What were your takeaways? Yeah, it was a good discussion. I think, I think that quote nails it, right? Because we, we want men to be more masculine, but the right masculinity and who defines right or wrong. And there's a lot of things that come down from generations, what George talks about, right? And there's a shift happening.

[00:01:22] And he quoted someone, and I think that is on the recording, where he says the, or what did he say? That once, once someone in the family accepts the emotional. Or feels the emotion. Yeah. Or feels the emotion. That's when the healing kind of starts, right? So if we look at generational trauma, I think super interesting, super interesting quote, right? And more men need to wake up. And I kept saying it.

[00:01:52] I see it in therapy. More and more men come to therapy. More and more men want to talk about it. And there are not enough male therapists, right? I mean, we talked to Chris Hemmings about that as well, right? There's so much we're doing. We still don't do enough, but we're getting there. And yeah, great discussion. Great discussion. We could have carried on for another day or two. Just, you know, sitting down and talking to him. So yeah, enjoy this week's episode.

[00:02:21] Yeah, and perhaps a little warning that if you're triggered by the name of a former German leader, there's quite a few mentions of that. I think, you know, we've recorded almost 120 episodes without it being referenced. And his name came up quite a bit. So enjoy. Yeah, you know, it's like explicit, right?

[00:02:50] Welcome to the Man Up / Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey. We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends. You can find us online at www.manupdown.com. Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:03:15] So welcome to another episode of Man Up, Man Down. Today we're delighted to welcome George Stoymanov, who was born in Bulgaria during the last years of the communist regime. Living and working in the United Kingdom since 2009, he's experienced in social care, youth work and the justice system. He's authored several books focusing on men's issues and the inner aspects of masculinity.

[00:03:45] I mean, masculinity is a very hot topic at the moment. As we're recording this, I haven't seen it myself, but Louis Theroux has just put a documentary out about the manosphere and toxic masculinity. But I mean, I know that George has written a book called The Father's Wound, which obviously looks at the relationship between men and their fathers. So welcome to the podcast, George.

[00:04:13] You know, quite a lot to talk about. So how did you get into this field? Well, first, thanks so much for having me. It's so good to be here. And second, great work on my surname. Amazing. Very good. How did I get into this field? Obviously, I don't think many people are just sitting down and think, gosh, I just want to understand the workings of my own mind or something.

[00:04:41] At least in my experience and people that I know, it's been through pain. Because I, up to the point when I was 24, I had not been challenged in any way internally about what am I? How am I formed? How do I work internally? And then when I tried to get into a serious relationship with a woman, then the challenges came.

[00:05:01] And so I was forced to basically either run away, as so many of us do all the time, or face myself and say, wait a minute, something's not working and it's not the relationship. Because I can only take responsibility over what part of the relationship is not working, which means me. So I had to take a long look under the hood, so to speak, which involved over a decade of all sorts of different approaches.

[00:05:30] Counseling, coaching, help, external physical stuff, climbing mountains, retreats for men, all sorts. And they all work. I don't advocate one approach. They all work. But they all work for the inner being of man. And so as I started to become myself, so to speak, I mean, even if you look at their pictures on the internet, on my website, Men's Corner, if you look up some pictures of how I used to, I even look different. So as I started to become more myself, I started to find, wow, that's my genuine self.

[00:05:59] I'm not there yet, but more and more towards that. Then men started coming my way with similar needs. I look at them and say, my goodness, I know what's going to help you. That's me six months ago. That's me five years ago. I used to have a personal training business and I was focusing on the outside because I was into weightlifting and fitness and things like that. But very often men, what? Broken men internally would come to me and then will transfer from the physical to the interior. And it's like, wow, okay, that's a different profession altogether.

[00:06:28] So that's how I, long story short, that's how I started getting into men's work. I mean, it's quite interesting because I know sort of quite a few people that have kind of gone like a similar route where they've started off in personal training. And then it's sort of gone more into the psychology and sort of the mental strength aspect. And I mean, you know, obviously we talk about the connection between the body and the mind.

[00:06:58] I mean, do you think that's almost a journey that a lot of men go through of, you know, sort of thinking, well, actually, if I'm physically strong, then the rest should follow. And then sort of finding, well, actually, I'm now feeling physically strong. But, you know, the challenge, I'm still not dealing with mental challenges so well. So, yeah, that's so true. And I think that's not our fault.

[00:07:25] It is we just reach for things that work internally speaking, that work for us. So, for example, when I was 15 years old, I was not very good at confrontation. Like I feared other men. And that's, again, that's my father wound. And so when this bully sort of person gave me a black eye, I didn't fight back. And instead, the very next day, I started lifting weights. I'm like, okay, I'm not good.

[00:07:55] I'm not strong enough in a conflict. But I know how to build myself up on the outside to keep the bullies at bay. And later, I actually had a, from about 17 till about my early 20s, I actually had a period when I became quite violent in terms of on purpose. I didn't never, could never get angry, like genuinely angry. But I pushed myself. I said, well, that's what I have to do. I have to do this. Otherwise, they will push me around, basically. And so very often, we have to build that exterior.

[00:08:25] But then, and you know the interesting things? I ended up in organized crime, actually, situations. Surrounded by scary people, really scary people. And even though I was a big guy with shaved head, I was taking drugs all the time. And I was drinking because I was so afraid of them. I was afraid. I was like in a lion's cage surrounded by lions pretending to be a lion. But I'm like, as soon as I get sober, I'm like, I need a line of coke now because I feel totally anxious.

[00:08:50] If these people see the weak, quote unquote, little boy inside of me, they'll take advantage of them. So that never goes away. The problem is when you make it in the world of bodybuilding, fitness, whatever external money, success, anything that we use to cover our wound, which is at bottom, a father wound, I argue in that book. Then that doesn't deal with the wound. That's like a shield. It's like, leave me alone. See, I'm good enough. I've got big biceps. I've got big bank account.

[00:09:19] I've got a big house. I'm good enough. So I tell the world, leave me alone. And then when that relationship comes, that bypasses everything because it gets to the heart. It exposes that little boy and say, I can't do this. And then you either walk out or you lose your temper or you get whatever. Everything that men suffer and cause to other people can stem from the issues that we're talking about. So is that what your book is about? And what is your book about? Is it?

[00:09:48] It's about the father wound. And basically it's about the psychic wound that men, I argue, all men suffer because we get masculinity at least. The first strands of it, the first, the baseline of it, we get it from our fathers or from the lack of a father. Yeah. So whatever we believe, however we act out our own masculinity, which is the inner beings, not the muscles, comes through the father. But of course, no father is perfect, even if he was there.

[00:10:17] And so the father wound is a result of that imperfection. And my friend Rick Belden, actually, who you guys know, he gave a wonderful definition of it, which I couldn't come up with anything better myself. So I use his definition in my book. I can even read it out to you if you want. Yeah. Yeah. If you could just remind us. It was a while ago that we spoke to Rick now. One sec. Yes, there you go. So Rick says,

[00:10:45] A father wound may be thought of as an injury to the psyche of a child resulting from significant dysfunction or disruption in relationship with the father. In some cases, it is the result of a father's absence or unavailability due to death, illness, adoption, or other circumstances that dramatically separate the child from the father.

[00:11:06] But more typically, a father wound is a complex of injuries to the child's psyche received over many years, often as a result of the father acting, consciously or not, out of his own woundedness. Profound, isn't it? Yes. So it suggests, if I got the gist of it, that the father might have a wound and he passes because of his wounds. He acts in a certain way.

[00:11:35] So it's almost like if you don't heal that trauma, it will be passed on generation by generation. Yes, exactly. I mean, we had Stephen Corby on our podcast. That's ages ago now. He wrote a... Did he write a book? No. He quoted a book and he had a TED Talk on fixing it with his father.

[00:11:58] And he pointed out how important it is that as men, we come to terms, essentially, for a better word, of fixing it. There's a relationship between us and our father. Because as you say, right, the masculinity that we get comes from our father. As a boy, as a man, we look up to our father, I think, instinctive. Instinctive. Yes.

[00:12:25] We think whatever our dad does, that's what we should be doing, right? I mean, look at, you know, if you look at celebrities, right? And Clinton, right? And his father relationship, I think, was interesting. From memory, his father was an alcoholic. And it's interesting what you say, right?

[00:12:46] It's not only what we see from our father or father figure, I suppose, but also what we don't see because we do not have that father figure. Because we're growing up in a female-only environment. Or we, I see it in therapy, we're growing up in an environment where we might not recognize the father as a father figure and choose someone else as a father figure. Yes. A brother, an uncle, a granddad even.

[00:13:17] Yeah, which is fine because a boy would get what he's given, what he sees. And also, just to add to your point, we do emulate our fathers if we've got something to emulate. But sometimes our fathers might appear to us to be weak. I'm like, I'll never be like that. And I think we've all done it to a point. Either if they're too weak, inefficient, or if they're too in our face, like too overtly masculine, too macho, very often the little boy says, I will never be like that.

[00:13:43] And then your own masculinity, whether we like it or not, is still shaped by that same person. But in one way, it's like, I want to be like you. You're my God. I want to worship you. I will do everything that you do to please you subconsciously. Or it's like, whatever I do, I'm not going to make the same choices. Even if those choices sometimes can be good. No, no way. There's so many examples in life that I give plenty of that in that book. There's one prison documentary, The Work. Have you guys seen it? 2017 came out. No. It's wonderful. I highly recommend it.

[00:14:13] I think it's on Prime now. And it's about prison therapy, basically. One of the toughest prisons in California. And one of the guys there is like, I'm trying desperately to give my children what my father could not be for me because he wasn't there. I want to fill that gap. But then the more experienced person said, how? How can you fill that gap? Well, I hug them more. I tell them that I love them. And then the guy just asked him straight away. He's like, do you think they feel the sadness behind it? And he's like, straight away, the tears are rolling on his face.

[00:14:43] Like, yes. Because it doesn't matter what you try to do on the outside. It's the spirit behind it that drives you. You can say, I love you in two different ways. You can say, I hate you in two different ways. You can curse. But it's the spirit behind it. You can be playful. You can be... So whatever void that's not being healed, masculine, father void in us, however much we're trying to make up for it on our own strength, it's not going to work. We need to do the work. Deeper work.

[00:15:10] You sort of mentioned that you, you know, fell in with gangs back in Bulgaria. So, I mean, was that... I mean, did you have a lack of a father figure? And is that sort of where you turned for what you thought was a strong sort of male example to follow? Um, it was not so much gangs as it was, um, I guess I wanted to develop the ability to be violent.

[00:15:38] I was a, I was a bouncer and I was around amidst other bouncers, you know, people, a lot of testosterone, a lot of shaved heads and big arms and all of that. A lot of posing. But my father was a very, he was a very tough guy. He was very respected, but he wasn't a street bully. He wasn't, he wasn't going out drinking and, you know, so he wasn't respected in that way. Like, but he had a very, we didn't have intimacy. So that's the baseline of problems. We didn't have, he was there as a teacher. Wow. I mean, he's honest. He never lied.

[00:16:08] He never cheated, never steal. He never went out drinking, getting into fights, but he was quite tough and people respected him. He had this ability to be violent. That was almost like from one to zero. That was like, you know, I mean, there are some dads out there who can wrestle with their sons and do arm wrestling. I think that's quite healthy actually. I wish mine was like that. My father never touched me, but some of the stories about him that I heard from other people, it's like, gosh, but I'm not like that. People do mess with me at school. And so I was like, okay.

[00:16:34] And when I was 15, when he saw that black eye say, you need to get these guys. And he meant, well, I mean, that's, you give what you got. And he's not wrong. I don't think people should be pushed over. So it's not good for his self-esteem or anyone else. If you allow yourself to be bullied. However, he said, oh, I just, and then I knew when he said, you need to get them. I was like, I'm not like that. In my, in my, my heart was saying, he sees now that I'm not like that. I'm a failure. I'm never going to be his son.

[00:17:02] And then the very next day, that day I started to hate myself. I'm like, I hate that little boy. I wish I could pull that little boy out of my chest and put a bullet in his head and move on without him. And that's more or less what I did. From that summer, I stopped one of my favorite childhood activities. I stopped going fishing completely. Boom. The very next day I started lifting weights. I mean, I don't look anything like it now, but if you saw me at 19, I was 85 kilos with a shaved head. Already had a scar on my face because someone hit me with a bat.

[00:17:33] But that external masculinity was just, and I would have probably confessed if you'd asked me if someone had a deep enough knowledge, say, George, what's driving that? I probably would have said, I'm very sad, but I can't allow myself to just be weak. I would rather, and I was, I was not a bully. I never went out fighting, but I projected the ability for violence. And that's why I became a bouncer because it was an easy job. But deep in my heart, I never wanted any of this.

[00:18:01] I mean, I would take lines of coke surrounded by criminals, like organized crime guys, and just look at pictures and start talking about art. And they're like, this guy's crazy. But in that, my real self would come up. And so it was not a lack of a father figure, but it was a lack of male intimacy and a very high standard. I'm like, okay, I guess a real man. And my dad never said that. He never said a real man is this. He was not traditional in any way. He was himself. But it was more like, I'm like that.

[00:18:30] And I'm like, well, I'm his boy. I want to be like him, of course, because he never did anything external that was bad. He never came home and beat me up or something, which kind of made the father wound very hard for me to deal with. It took me a while to understand I had a father wound. It's interesting what you say there because, I mean, for personal reasons, I used to be a bouncer, but I wasn't. I was never big. I mean, I was just tall. That was enough for me.

[00:18:59] And I did it for the money. I didn't do it for anything else. I didn't get much fight to it. And it was an organized crime, although I sometimes wondered. Anyway, I think the other point, which is probably more interesting than our discussion, is emotional bond, right? Men don't show emotions. Most men don't show emotions. Since I've been trained as a therapist, I've learned a lot about emotions, right?

[00:19:27] As a therapist, you kind of can't get away with talking about emotions. But it's still difficult for men, right? If I look at my dad, you know, my parents' generation, they don't share a lot of emotions. If I think about my grandparents, you know, they never shared emotions. I mean, they grew up in the war, right?

[00:19:54] It was, I mean, again, given I come from Germany, it was all very functional, right? We get on with all shit, and we move forward, right? We get to the war, you know, we're fighting for survival. You know, that's the grandparents' generation. And then my parents' generation, you know, we're coming out of the war. We need to rebuild, you know. We need to, you know, the emotions they have were like, shit, shit, what has our country done, right?

[00:20:21] We, you know, they didn't want to pass it on to our generation. There's a lot of work being done around this, you know, interrelation in Germany. And I don't necessarily want to talk about the war. I mean, don't talk about the war. But it's those emotions, right? Because we don't talk about our feelings. How could we? You know, it's forbidden. And it's the same in other countries, right?

[00:20:47] I mean, I assume, I mean, you just mentioned it was Bulgaria, David. I mean, I don't know if you got lots of emotions from your parents. Stiff upper lip. Yeah, exactly. Men up. Yeah. You know, don't cry. You know, don't show your weakness. Yeah. And I think there is, I think in everything that humans do, generation from generation, there is perfect sense. Yeah.

[00:21:16] Sometimes we look back and say, oh, they're crazy. They did that. No, no, no. There is a logic behind things. Very often generations, we throw the baby out with the bathwater because we don't want to be like them. For example, back in the day, like you said, men used to be, and I talk a lot about this in the book because the blueprint of masculinity that I argue every man has it is, is the, just the basics, basic tenets of be strong, be tough. I think every, every man, because when you look at boys, the movies that they watch, if

[00:21:42] they're left being boys, if they had enough maleness around them to enable them to be boys, if you're like, oh, I want to be a hero or I want to be Superman, whatever. And it's like, so I think everyone has that. But back in the day, that was what served the world. The world didn't have time for men to be emotional. No, no, I want you to come and rebuild your country. I want you to come and fight. I want you to come and build that wall, whatever it is. I need your muscles, basically. I don't care that you go home and beat up your wife because you can't deal with her emotions.

[00:22:09] I just need you now to be my muscle man. That's what the world says. And then now they have built up the world. We live in a comfortable world because of that sacrifice that men will just spill their guts, but just keep fighting or keep building. Now they're always like, you know what, guys, you're actually toxic. You came home and beat us up. We don't want anything to do with you. And now we just want to be able to share emotions. And it's like, both things are not bad. We want both.

[00:22:36] But when you exclude one at the expense of the other, you have a next generation trying to regain the first thing that you left out. And that's not good. That's why now you have right-wing movements springing up all over the world. You have people like Andrew Tate. It's like, take your manhood back. Because there is a legitimate element of masculinity that's been suppressed for decades. And it's like, someone like that, a bit like what Hitler did with the Germans. He was like, I know the way and you know I'm telling the truth.

[00:23:03] And it's like, oh, there's an element of truth that he's saying and no one else is saying it. But let's not forget that Hitler was ridiculed when he first came up. Andrew Tate would be ridiculed now if the world was full of real men. And what does real men mean? Someone who has both that blueprint that I talk about and his soul. He's alive in the soul. He's able to hug his children. He's able to connect, like share emotions. And I think many men today are like, oh, no, I'm not doing that. They want me to sit in a circle and hold hands. Not for me.

[00:23:32] And that's why I think it's good to have male spaces, men's groups where it's different. Your emotions are not just exposed to the whole world to see. No, you're vulnerable in front of your brothers. You can still be strong to the world. You can show that aspect to your wife. You can show different aspects to your kids. But when you rebuild the masculine order inside, you will not run away from emotions. I think many men are weak. They feel weak and they want to be strong desperately, a bit like how I was. If you told me back in the day, George, how about crying in front of your friends?

[00:24:02] I wasn't opposed to crying when I'm like, well, that's not going to serve me. But if you tell me now, sometimes if I tell a story that's emotional, I can tear up. I don't even think, oh, we shouldn't be crying. I am what I am. But back then, I was not free to be what I am because part of my masculinity was missing. If that makes sense. That's kind of a... So, I mean, how did you... I mean, you've obviously sort of mentioned about the personal training.

[00:24:30] But I mean, how did you go from a bodybuilding bouncer doing cocaine with potentially members of organized crime to sitting in a circle of men and crying in front of them? I think that is obviously one extreme to the other. Yes. And it was gradual. Obviously, moving to England was a big... I changed environment completely.

[00:24:55] So, everything good that happened to me back starting 2009 was... I followed... If you guys are familiar with... His name... The Hero's Journey. Tony Campbell? Oh, Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell. Yeah. So, I followed that call. I could have said, no, I had a comfortable life. I was 24. I already had a place to live. Anyway, and I said, what if there's more to life? What if one day I regret it? And I followed the call of adventure, basically.

[00:25:24] And so, my girlfriend and I, we ended up in England. We never planned to stay. We planned to move, to keep traveling. But life was tough, financially speaking. So, I'm like, wow, okay. Started to work on a building site. A lot of that stuff came up. And I said, I need healing. I need... Something is broken here. And so, mentors, friends, coaches came my way. You know, when you're ready, the universe would open doors. And it was a gradual journey. It took more than a decade. I attended retreats. I attended boot camps. All sorts of stuff. All sorts of stuff. Counseling therapy, private therapy in Horsham. He's a lovely guy.

[00:25:54] So, I used to drive to see. So, when your inner child is allowed to live again, then you're more emotionally available. I remember the first time that I actually shed a tear in front of my girlfriend at the time, who is now my wife. It was very difficult. And I knew that I had to look at her because that was all my life. I hid my real self because I thought it was weak. It was like, no. I've regained some of my strength already. So, it's not about... Because you need both, basically.

[00:26:23] I think men need to regain their strength. If you're not able to say no, if you're not able to be aggressive when you need it, and when I say aggressive, I don't mean destructive. I mean to have that ability. For example, my kids, right? I can raise my voice. And I don't need to get up and do something to them. They know that I mean it. And my aggression is very controlled. I'm just going to take away your technology. That's like the worst thing that I can do to them. But I'm able to do it. Basically, they don't mess with me.

[00:26:51] But a long time ago, people did mess with me because I didn't have the capacity to confront anyone. But once you regain that, it's like... And I've written a little e-book called Reclaiming Courage because of that. Then you know you're strong enough. So, there's nothing to protect. Now, when you look at people like Special Forces Commanders and someone like Bear Grylls, I write about Bear Grylls in my book because he's very interesting. He's not your typical big, tough guy. He looks like he's full of love. And yet, he can snap my neck like a chicken if you want.

[00:27:20] He's a Special Forces Commander, right? But the way... And I've met other... I've met SAS people. No, I didn't miss that many. Maybe a couple. But none of them are big and strong. And they have this ease around them. The way they walk. The kindness. Like, this guy is a dangerous man. And yet, just because he's... The way he's reclaiming his dangerous side is very functional. He knows that he's able to be aggressive. So, he doesn't think about it. Now, if someone has an issue with that, if someone needs to take revenge on the bullies

[00:27:49] that bullied him back in childhood, then he needs bigger muscles and more aggression. And then you be aware of those people because if they become strong or aggressive or something like that, then they're dangerous. But I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about genuine strength, genuine ability to draw boundaries, to say no, which is a very masculine thing, I just say in the book. It's a very divisive, very polarizing thing. But there's a way to explain it. And once you've got that, once you don't feel vulnerable in front of other men, it comes, if they see me, they will abuse me. I'll be weak. Then you can cry in front of them.

[00:28:19] Then you can hold them when they cry. You can be free emotionally. But that baseline of masculinity must be there. And I remember that. I've been part of men's group back in the day, looking at some little gentle guy just sharing his emotions. And I looked at him and was like, all respect to you, but I don't want to be like you. I want to be strong. I want to be masculine. And later on, I realized that when you become yourself as a man, you'll be masculine. But it's a bit of a journey becoming yourself,

[00:28:49] not just one part. Because when we're stuck trying to prove our fathers wrong, how toxic they are, then there's only certain elements of the self that's available. Because that's the argument that I make in the book. It's like, well, we can, almost like our fathers have put something in our bodies that we don't want to use. And like a bank deposit, if you don't cash it out, it's like, it's no use for anyone. But then if we claim that, even if your father was a horrible person, there was something about his humanity

[00:29:18] that wasn't horrible. It's how he acted out. And once we claim that, it's like, wow, yeah, there is a masculinity. There is father-based, masculine, sonship-based. Even if we never knew our fathers, it's not about that. It's about what's inside of us from those men, that line of manhood. Once you have that taken care of, it's like, you can be gentle then. You can allow your inner child to play and connect to people because he'll feel protected. Otherwise, it's just like a vulnerable, raw, open heart, vulnerable to the

[00:29:48] arrows of the world. And look at what happened to those people. Creative, wonderful people. And I write about people like that, whom I admire. People like Elvis Presley. People like young creators. Whoever it is, young writers. F. Scott Fitzgerald, who wrote The Great Gatsby. Just a wonderful, beautiful human being, but not a strong man. And why shouldn't we have both? Because their hearts break, eventually. The world trumples on their hearts. But if you have the fortitude to push through obstacles, which only comes from masculinity,

[00:30:18] you can be gentle. You can be creative. You can. I have a whole little e-book again about the inner child. It's called Recovery of the Inner Boy. That inner boy, you cannot be a complete man if you don't have your inner child alive and well. I do go fishing again. I'm going tomorrow morning. This is where I play. That's where I go with a huge smile. Just being in the elements of my childhood. That's where the child gets to play. And not only there, but it's, I had to reclaim things like that.

[00:30:50] Hello, folks. It's Volker here. I hope you enjoy this week's episode. As you know, I coach executives, whether that is for leadership skills or sales leadership skills or working as a therapist, too. There are few ways I can help you to get unstuck, improve your work-life balance or become a better version of yourself. So you will be more productive and have more time for your family. Whatever it is, you can join my client list of people

[00:31:19] from General Electric, Pepsi, DHL, Boots and many others. Book a free exploratory call via my website, www.opnat.us. That's O-B-N-A-T dot U-S. Now back to the show. So is your father, well, do you still have a relationship with your father? Yes, very much.

[00:31:48] I see my parents once a year. I spend a whole month in Bulgaria when it's nice and hot in the summer. But he's not, he's not a deep guy. I mean, first of all, he's a different generation and second, he's from a different country as well. He's a lovely guy. He's a lovely man and he cannot deny the change in me. He keeps, never told me, but he keeps saying to other people, Josh has changed so much. And it's like, yeah, but he's not, we're close. He's probably one of my biggest supporters, but he doesn't know what I'm doing, really. He's not that involved. Yeah,

[00:32:18] well, I guess that was going to be my question, sort of, you know, how does he feel about, you know, what you're doing now and also the fact that, you know, he indirectly inspired a book as well. Yes, yeah. I haven't told him yet actually because the book came out in print very recently. So he's on the cover. Oh, Oh, you haven't told him. That's my dad and I. Well, it is in English, but I will definitely tell him soon. Maybe even this week when we talk,

[00:32:48] because he's not, he knows that I'm doing something psychological. I'm helping. Cause sometimes when I spend a long time there, when I was doing the coaching, which I'm not doing right now, I, I had my coaching sessions upstairs and he could hear me. And he says, so what are you doing? Are you like a psychiatrist? I said, kind of, but I'm helping men with their inner stuff. And that's, he doesn't need, he doesn't want to know more, but he's, he's, he's happy for me. So what, what do you think he's going to say when he sees that book cover? I hope he sees something good. Is he going to cry?

[00:33:19] He's quite an emotional man, actually. He's, I've seen him here more than once. I hope, I hope so. I hope so. Cause in, in the book, there are negative things, obviously we're talking about the father wound, but there is also a very spiritual moment where I had to let go of him as being my idol, basically. And a greater power was calling to me. That's all you get into the spiritual. Say he's your idol. As, so long as you base, on a man, you cannot,

[00:33:49] your soul cannot be free. And I had to let him go. And then I had a vision of my father's huge presence shrinking down. And he was just on the side. He wasn't, he's no longer in the center of my being. And he was like, dad, how, how did I, what pressure I put on you to be everything for me. But when you don't have it, and I talk about the, in the book about the movie gladiator, if you, if you guys, have you guys seen it? It's a long time ago. I've seen it many times. Yeah. That was a massive movie for me in my inner, in a journey because the guy had a huge, father wound. And then he said, I,

[00:34:18] I would butcher the whole world. Only that you would love me. I seek the face of the God just for one kind word, one smile, but it never came. Every time I watch that, I'll cry because of the father wound. And I'm like, I'm just like this guy, twisted, broken, malnourished, even physically. Look at him. He didn't look. And then that, that hole in my chest, that field. It's like, wow, I no longer have that. And so my father took his right, rightful place in my life. He's,

[00:34:47] I'll take anything from my father, that his heritage in me, I want everything that he had, all the bravery, all the good stuff, but also the stuff that he didn't manage to develop. Because as humans, we're very, very undeveloped. Very. And now I think it's a good time in terms of where, where in the world, more and more people are fulfilled, but it's, it's the early days. And especially in his day and in communism, how the, he just had to work to survive and he did a good job, but there's so much in him that he was not able to, to capitalize on. And I,

[00:35:16] I'm trying to do that for myself. And I hope that one day my children would be able to get from me the stuff that even I couldn't get for me. If that makes any sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that is sort of a common theme that we've discussed on here quite a bit is that, you know, you're, you're basically trying to, I don't know, provide the life for your children that you didn't have, but it's balancing it with, you know,

[00:35:46] still kind of developing a bit of grit and resilience. Yeah. I want the stuff that I had plus my own stuff that I didn't have. And that's development. There's a quote in the book of George Santanae who said, progress is, how do you put it? Progress is based on retention. So you have to retain stuff in order to move forward. Although at the moment, young men are taught to hate their fathers and their grandfathers because they were racist, because they were Nazis, whatever it was. It doesn't matter.

[00:36:14] There's always a reason because people are, people have negative side, people have positive side. But when you completely turn away from a whole generation, completely denounce their great grandfathers, their grandfathers, I never want anything to do with you. Then what happens? Like, who are you? What are you building? You cannot reinvent yourself. You need to turn back and reclaim that stuff and say, you know what? I want the good stuff. I don't want the bad stuff. I forgive the bad stuff. I want the good stuff. And now let me build that masculinity. Again, it's in the book,

[00:36:42] but it's one young guy who was like very emotional about something that his girlfriend, he couldn't deal with her. He couldn't deal with her. She was crying. She was emotional. And I just had a sense that he, there was very little that she needed from him. But the trouble, as soon as she got emotional, she needed a shoulder to cry on, then he started to cry. And it's like, okay, what's happening here? So I prob a little bit into, into what he's bringing. And he said, oh, my father was very toxic. Nothing to do with my father. Horrible bully. I don't want to see him ever again.

[00:37:11] And it's like, but I was raised by my mom. My mom was very emotional. So I'm very in touch with that emotion. So as my girlfriend starts to cry, I start to cry. But I said, has it occurred to you that maybe she just needs you to be stronger in that way? And I don't use the word strong in a, in a macho way, but I mean, keep it together for her. She doesn't want another female at that. And this is all very divisive. You can't speak like that, which is infuriating. It's like, why not? But I'm talking, I don't talk about gender bias. I'm talking about male and female energy, masculine and feminine energy.

[00:37:42] So obviously more of, most of the men hold more of the masculine, when most of the women hold more of the feminine. That's exactly what I'm referring to. I'm not stereotyping. I'm not saying, oh, women don't do that. Men do that. No, but I'm just going large, just seeing the largest statistic, basically. And so that was a massive thing. He needed the strength, the quiet strength that, because he hadn't forgiven his father, he hadn't done his work, basically. He didn't have, he just didn't have his father's love. He didn't belong. And of course,

[00:38:10] what we're left with is hating them. You didn't give me the love that I wanted, but look at you, you're toxic. You beat us up. You were drinking. You know what? I'm going to cross you out of my life. I'm glad you're dead. If you're alive, I wish you were dead. And that's very often the state of young manhood in the world today. We just, because our fathers didn't love us in that physical way, now we hate them. We do the reasons, I must say. I had the same to my dad. I was, had to write letters to him, not to send to him, but, and hatred came out. I'm like, I thought I idolized him, but no,

[00:38:40] why didn't you love me? You were dangerous. You were, you were like horrible, brooding, looming presence, but you didn't love me. I'm your, I'm your boy. And so once we do that work, however, you'll be able to embrace that masculinity. And it's like, okay, now I can move on and be gentle as well. So, um, yeah, having something, reclaiming something and then build your own stuff on top. Uniqueness. I'm listening and I'm, I'm thinking a lot, right? Because

[00:39:10] why, why is it so hard for men to actually embrace their masculinity? It's almost like, correct me here if I missed anything, but it seems like all, all we ever want in life is be like our dad, right? If, if it's a positive rumor, um, if not, we want to be better than our dad, right? And as, as of Instagram, you,

[00:39:39] you've probably seen a million times as well, right? These nice motivational posts, your dad is the only person that always wants you to be better than him, right? It's the only, you know, there's, there's no competition. You know, you always want your sons or daughters to be better than you. And when we, there's one question I've been holding back in terms of how, how do you actually, if I say, be, become yourself, right? That's, that's another question.

[00:40:05] But once you become yourself in this day and age, it's almost, I don't want to say it's impossible, but what you just described, it's difficult to actually then embrace masculinity and say, Oh, I'm strong. You know, I'm, you know, whatever defines because then, Oh, but you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do that. You know, women have rights to yad, yad, yad, yad. There's nothing wrong with being a man. No. Right? No. Yeah.

[00:40:35] Do you see what I'm saying? I mean, I don't know. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think this is a very dangerous time to be a man, which excites me because it's like, wow, it can't get any worse. It can't get any worse for men. In the modern world. And of course I come from a, I study history quite a bit and I come from communists. I remember communism. Like, right. And the traits of communism are suppressing of speech. We all the same. We're well equal. I see them now in the West.

[00:41:05] It's like, what are you guys doing? Let you guys be guys. Don't judge them for any joke that they said. And if it's a bad joke, let it come back and bite them because that's how it was in my days. Like you, if you joke and if it was a bad joke, someone will, will call you out on it. And so almost like you were allowed to speak. When I was growing up, you're allowed to say anything, to do anything, but the world will keep you in check. Oh, we had, we had things to do with racism. We had things to do with sexism, but there are some people that nobody,

[00:41:35] nobody was joking with because they didn't take it. Some women would always call you up if you were sexist with them. Some people from a minority would be like, what did you call me? So it's like, that's a much healthier environment for young men to grow up and try things out. I guess I'm being an idiot now. I'm never going to say that again. However, today in the West, you have the government tell you, you can't say that. Don't do, don't be like, oh, and it's like, it's like this unseen arm that's put on you.

[00:42:07] So it's second guessing everything. Meanwhile, evil people don't second guess. When you look at Adolf Hitler, when you look at people who are like complete idiots. I mean, I say evil. I don't see many evil people around, but the people who potentially can be evil and the people who are overconfident, who are idiots. Like, I mean, selfish. They're confident for their own selfish gain. And the good people who want to change the world are just second guessing. Oh, I shouldn't say that because it might be toxic. Meanwhile, the people who don't second guess, they're like, yeah, take it. Take your masculinity back.

[00:42:37] It's like, no, no, we need good people to be strong. We need good men to be strong. We're talking about men now. I mean, good people in general. I have two daughters. I want them to be strong, but I'm talking about men now. If good men were strong, those, those, um, macho spewing caricatures, they would look like caricatures. Like I said, they used to laugh at Hitler until they needed him. And why did they need him? Because the country was disarmed. There was, in the Weimar Republic, and I'm not quoting your own history. So forgive me for that.

[00:43:07] But it was just, they had these brothels everywhere, and it was all morally bankrupt, financially bankrupt, um, militarily bankrupt. Perfect time for a dictatorship. Because whoever comes to rescue us will take his hand. It's better than drowning, right? And now this is what's happening. And not because it's anyone's fault, but because men are being emasculated year by year, day by day, and their dangerous spirit has been extinguished, or has been suppressed. Meanwhile,

[00:43:37] bad men, they don't care about that. So they'll take advantage of the situation. And how sad is that? You know what? I'm looking at the time, and I'm like, shit, we could go on here for a while. So this is such a good discussion, George. I mean, how, how do we make these men? It's a little like, how do we play God and form them and shape them, which we, which we can't, and which we shouldn't. Thankfully we can't,

[00:44:06] because then we'll make them in our own image. They said, we preach what you know, but you reproduce what you are. And I don't want to, I don't want to reproduce what I am, because I'm incomplete, unfinished person. That's the saddest thing that I've seen in families. yeah, well, starting, give them my book. No, but, but, that's allowed. That's allowed. That's good. Yeah. But it's, it's a journey. I mean, I've read so many books, like King, Warrior, Magician, Lover, Wild at Heart,

[00:44:35] many secular, spiritual, it doesn't matter. But really, it's like, I wonder how do I go on this journey? So it's a journey. It's a journey. And I guess it starts with taking the, what do they call it? Matrix? I never watched the Matrix, but just saying yes. Okay, well, maybe there's more to me that meets the eye. Maybe my hesitancy, maybe my timidity, maybe that's not my makeup. Maybe there is a, a, a brave, a stronger person buried inside, but he's not developed because of my father. Because my, my,

[00:45:05] my mother. So basically in the most Western man, it's like over mothering, under fathering. The father comes home, but he's a Homer Simpson, including I'm, I'm also guilty of that. I just want to read my book. Leave Me Alone. that's a very masculine fault. That's like all the way back to the Garden of Eden. It's like, ah, I just want to hide. And, and it's like, so if you, and also many, many families don't have fathers at all. And so the mother plays the father as well. And, and when a boy is being controlled by mom,

[00:45:33] he either going to take it for decades and then grow up into a very timid, very suffocated man who will be pushed around by women and do what women say, but deep down resents them. Or he's going to be a rebel. He's going to be a woman hater. He's going to start a men's movement. He's going to join the manosphere. Whatever. Like, we don't need women. Hit them back, basically. And so, how do we come back? Ourselves is, say yes. Just think about a discussion like what we just had and say,

[00:46:02] is there more to me that meets the eye? Even though I'm in my forties, talking about myself here, I want it. I want it. Just, just put it out there just to hear yourself saying, I want it. Send me those mentors, friends, coaches, books, podcasts. I want to grow and grow up. I want to grow up. My biggest curse in my life is that I wasn't, I wasn't growing up. Literally. Like, you see a big guy with a big neck, but I knew that. And that's why I wore a lot of sunglasses in my early twenties, because I knew that if people would see a little boy and he wasn't a little boy, that's playful.

[00:46:32] And like now, now he's back, but he was an undeveloped little boy, little boy who was kind of, kind of squashed and ashamed and victim of shame. And, you know, watching a lot of porn and, and looking at women in, in not out there externally. Like I want to take you into my world. I want to show you my world, but actually I just want to, to use you basically. I just want to take from you. So the difference between a strong man and who is grown up when it comes to women, it's like a strong man comes to offer. It doesn't mean I doesn't receive pleasure,

[00:47:02] but primarily he's like, I want to offer to this woman and I want to take her into my world. But a weak man, like I was, or rather a man who's not grown up, it's like, I just want mommy. I just want mommy. I want the female comfort. I want pleasure. And because the father is not there to cut you out, like in the old rites of initiation, however imperfect they are, even though there's a lot of abuse and stuff, but, but the father is true. The father is a boy. Spend time with mommy, literally at the breast. And then the knock on the door comes when he's about 10.

[00:47:31] And the man of the village led by his father, take him out. It's like, no, I don't want to be out. You go out into the mountain and you're, you're subject to hardship and you become a man. And that's the symbolic cut. But today, even, even when you look at obsession with breasts and look at the hip hop, like hip hop stars, they're these strong masculine men, but they're surrounded by women and they must have big breasts. What's that about? It's about mother comfort. Give me more, more, more. It's about abundance. So when you mother it well, again,

[00:48:00] I have a little book called the mother wound. When you mother it well, you then can be fathered. When, when the father cuts you off from mommy, like Bear Grylls, I quote him in my, in, in my last book. He's saying when my father was pushing me to the mountain, I wanted to be pushed. But then he was like, yes. So when your mother, when you looked after, well, it's like, I can join my daddy's world because he loves me and, and he's going to help me become a hero like him. But when you not have that, when you don't have that, you just had the mother's world. It's like, well,

[00:48:30] that's what gives me life. Nobody calls me into the other. And that's a lot of overeating. I've always been a victim. I'm not completely healed yet, but it's a journey. Um, a lot of my, I lost a lot of weight, but before that it was like the whole day, I'll be a man, go lift my weight, go work on a building set and then come home and just eat Nutella out of the jar. I'm thinking if some of those guys see me now, just, just eating Nutella, drinking milk, what's, that's duplicity. That's the inner child. One thing he's needing his own.

[00:48:58] And because I wasn't grown up inside and there's no judgment, there's no shame. You can't just do it. I still eat Nutella out of jars. Oh, me too. But that's not. Let's just admit it. Not judgment, as I said. Yeah. There's a time and a place for the inner child to be nourished. Exactly. Josh, this is so fascinating. We have to come to an end. What? What, as you say, right, besides calling me up for therapy and reading your book, um,

[00:49:28] what, what else can people do? What, what, what, where can they find out more about you? What would you do? If they want to know more about me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I've still got my blog and podcast. YouTube. It's called men's corner. So men's corner. Dot. Dot. Dot. Dot. Dot. Things for free there. So you don't have to get my book. Most of what's in my book has been there or will be there. Don't say that. Go and buy men's corner. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:49:58] But yeah, well, we'll obviously share all that, uh, information in the show notes so people can, uh, can find you, George, but, um, thanks very much. And, um, well, hope the book goes well and, uh, hope your dad is pleased to see himself on the cover. Yeah. Thanks a lot, guys. I really enjoyed my time with you. I mean, we could have, we could have just kept going for another 24 hours at least. Thanks for making me feel so welcome. And this, it's Larkin said in his, um,

[00:50:26] I'm sure you know Larkin's poem. We can cut that out. I don't know. We can leave it in, you know, they fuck you up, your mom and dad. They don't mean to, but they do, right? Yeah. Unfortunately, it is, it is so true, right? And it's generation after generation. Yeah. And someone else said, some therapist that I quoted in my book that, I don't even know where I heard it from, but it was a therapist. I think it was a lady therapist. She said, pain travels through the families until someone is ready to feel it. Yeah.

[00:50:56] So it gets passed on and you have to have suffered enough to say, you know what? Let me be the one. Yeah. Nobody volunteers for that stuff. Oh, I can't wait to have a decade of suffering. No, but when the suffering of being your current self is too much. It's like, you know what? I would rather suffer legitimately the stuff that I'm avoiding now because things are no longer working. And so that's basically my story. Love it. Thank you. Thanks a lot, guys.

[00:51:28] Thanks for listening to this week's episode. Feel free to reach out to Fulker or David via our website, www.manupdown.com or podcast at manupdown.com with any feedback or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future. Hear you again soon.