The Kind Mind Method

[00:00:05] Welcome to the Man Up Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often

[00:00:16] too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:20] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com.

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:34] Welcome to another episode of Man Up Man Down.

[00:00:38] Today we welcome Alex Walton.

[00:00:40] No disrespect Alex, I'm not sure exactly how to introduce you.

[00:00:45] I'm sorry.

[00:00:46] But I mean, I guess well, Alex is here today to talk about his book The Kind Mind Method.

[00:00:53] The basic looks into well how we can perhaps all be happier and live better lives by being more kind.

[00:01:04] But I mean, sort of I guess I won't say the thing that first brought you to prominence perhaps was

[00:01:11] your Find My Story initiative in December 2015.

[00:01:16] You basically wrote a short story and had it delivered to well envelopes for left.

[00:01:24] Well, I want to say starting in the UK but they ended up all around the world.

[00:01:29] And it was basically a short story just to bring a bit of hope to whoever found it.

[00:01:35] Is that a good way to describe it?

[00:01:38] Yeah.

[00:01:38] Yeah.

[00:01:39] And first of all, thank you David.

[00:01:42] Thank you Volker for having me on the podcast.

[00:01:44] So really appreciate it.

[00:01:47] Yeah.

[00:01:47] And that's probably probably the best place to start actually is with with the envelope.

[00:01:52] So if I just give you just sort of a little bit more detail around that we can sort of build from there.

[00:01:59] But so yeah, absolutely right December 2015.

[00:02:02] I'm waving this envelope around but very conscious that we're on a podcast and nobody can can see it.

[00:02:07] So just to help that visualization.

[00:02:09] It's a red A4 envelope sort of festive looking.

[00:02:13] I would like to say and in December 2015 you write a hundred of these appeared randomly scattered across the city of Norwich.

[00:02:25] And there was a message on the front that read several years ago,

[00:02:29] I received a Christmas gift in strange circumstances.

[00:02:31] It changed my life for the better.

[00:02:34] I'm now returning that favor by randomly distributing the same gift in equally strange circumstances.

[00:02:39] So wherever you may find this envelope, it's meant for you.

[00:02:42] Please take it, please open it.

[00:02:45] Please read it Merry Christmas.

[00:02:48] And then inside the envelope was another small brown envelope which again I'm waving for the imaginary audience.

[00:02:57] And there was a message on the front of that that said please do not open until you've read my story.

[00:03:02] And then the story itself.

[00:03:04] So it was an emotional story about a man called Matt.

[00:03:09] And in almost magical circumstances, Matt meets a stranger who gives him a gift.

[00:03:17] And he'd been going through a difficult time in his life and he receives that gift and the gift changed his life

[00:03:24] and really turned it around and that was the trigger.

[00:03:27] And he was now handing that gift back over to you,

[00:03:32] the person who had the courage, the curiosity to open his envelope.

[00:03:36] And that gift was the card that was inside the small brown envelope and it was the Star Tarot card.

[00:03:44] I'm not particularly mystical myself, but the Star Tarot card represents hope.

[00:03:50] And there's a message on the back which I'll read briefly.

[00:03:54] It says the Star card represents hope.

[00:03:57] It suggests you've endured life's challenges and have been through a difficult time.

[00:04:01] Your ability to let go of damaging memories will be strengthened by contact with those closest to you.

[00:04:08] This card is saying to you that over the long term, you should have faith and trust in yourself.

[00:04:13] A better future is waiting for you, but in order to reach it, you must trust that it's possible.

[00:04:19] And this was my project.

[00:04:22] So I wrote Matt's story.

[00:04:25] I printed out Matt's story.

[00:04:27] I created the Star cards.

[00:04:30] I bought the envelopes.

[00:04:32] I bought the stickers that went on the front of the envelopes and then I randomly distributed a hundred of them around the city of Norwich.

[00:04:39] And my hope was that I'd find just one person that needed that positive message at what could be a difficult time of the year, so Christmas time effectively.

[00:04:52] And it became so much more.

[00:04:53] So over the next five years, I wrote two more stories and with the help of hundreds of volunteers, we distributed thousands of these envelopes all over the country.

[00:05:07] Even made it to New York so I had a number of volunteers that were distributing them in New York.

[00:05:13] And most importantly, I was inundated with profound responses from people who found one of these and it reached them at just the right time.

[00:05:22] You know, some of the responses and this is just a few found your story.

[00:05:26] You have no idea what time it entered my life and the impact it had.

[00:05:30] Another one I can honestly say I've never been so taken aback.

[00:05:34] The card inside couldn't have come at a better time for me.

[00:05:37] They just seemed to find the right people at the right time.

[00:05:40] And then the truth is what nobody knew is that the entire time I was going through that,

[00:05:50] those stories that I wrote were a direct reflection of my anxiety, my negative thinking and the depression that it led to.

[00:06:00] And no one knew not my friends, not my work colleagues, not my family, not even my wife.

[00:06:08] And really for me, it was very much around negative thinking.

[00:06:13] I found that I've always been a creative person and when I was younger, that was a really positive thing for me.

[00:06:20] I just go in daydream and it's great.

[00:06:22] And then as I got a bit older something, a light switch just went and it was just I was as creative as ever,

[00:06:27] but they were all negative shitty thoughts and I simply couldn't step outside of that.

[00:06:35] And these envelopes offered a bit of a brief respite.

[00:06:39] It seemed every December I did them because I did them at Christmas time.

[00:06:43] It was like maybe there's some change that will come from this.

[00:06:46] Maybe this hope I'm offering to others, it will give me something and it helped briefly,

[00:06:52] but it just didn't change the dial.

[00:06:55] And in December 2019, five years of doing them at the end of that month, I made the decision to stop.

[00:07:04] And then on January the 10th, 2020, I went away for a weekend with friends sort of less than two weeks after I'd stopped my envelopes.

[00:07:13] And a simple thought process emerged within me that completely wiped away my anxiety and my negative thinking.

[00:07:24] Literally over that weekend, I walked in massively struggling.

[00:07:29] I walked out of that week completely free of the anxiety, the negative thinking.

[00:07:34] And in the four years since have never returned to that state of mind again,

[00:07:39] simply by this thought process that I call the kind mind method that I've written in the book.

[00:07:46] And I believe it was directly inspired by the journey I went through on the envelopes.

[00:07:52] And I'll give you a super quick summary of what it is and then we can sort of delve into some of the detail and appreciate it.

[00:07:59] It is the simplest thing possible.

[00:08:02] And I was left as bamboozled as I could be afterwards, but it made such a difference to me.

[00:08:09] And it's simply two questions that I ask myself and I've asked them hundreds and thousands of times every single day.

[00:08:17] And it is just how can I help them? How can I make them smile?

[00:08:21] And I repeat it over in my head. How can I help them? How can I make them smile?

[00:08:25] How can I help them? How can I make them smile?

[00:08:27] It's like a mantra, but instead of just saying a statement, I am strong. I am positive.

[00:08:33] It gives me a creative thought that I can engage with and and them is anyone that can be people in my head that I'm thinking of.

[00:08:41] If I'm on my own, I think of work, I think of my family. How can I help them? How can I make them smile?

[00:08:46] Or if I'm around people, it makes me step out my thoughts and I engage with them.

[00:08:51] And it's always a positive thought and it simply repeating those questions.

[00:08:56] I've done that every day since and it just allows me to step out and has given me the freedom as such.

[00:09:04] So I appreciate it. There's a bit to unpack and there is quite a bit more to it there, but that's the summary and that's where it evolved from.

[00:09:12] OK, well thanks for routing all that up.

[00:09:17] I mean, I just want to go back to the stories.

[00:09:20] I mean, where did the idea come from?

[00:09:25] Yeah, and are you from Norwich then?

[00:09:28] Yeah, I live in Norwich. I'm not from there. I'm actually from up north.

[00:09:33] So I'm a proud Cumbrian. I used to live in Carl. All my family is still there.

[00:09:38] The idea came, I've always wrote.

[00:09:41] So I think there's sort of three elements.

[00:09:42] I always write. I love the creative piece, but I think I was going through a difficult time and those stories were, I think, a combination of that creativity and the fact that I was struggling.

[00:09:58] And so the first story was about a guy called Matt.

[00:10:01] He was going through a difficult time at work and other bits and there's a reflection on some of the struggles that I went through.

[00:10:07] The second story was about a woman called Rachel who had an accident and then some of the struggles that she had.

[00:10:14] And I broke my neck, my pelvis and my hip in a snowboard in accident about 14 years ago.

[00:10:20] It was in a brace for over a year.

[00:10:21] So I think again, that was a reflection of some of the issues that I faced on the back of that.

[00:10:27] And then the third one, I think it was my worry of where it might go.

[00:10:30] It was somebody, a gentleman called Jack who was contemplating committing suicide to be blunt.

[00:10:35] I don't think I ever got anywhere near there, but I think there was always that worry.

[00:10:39] Could it get to that point?

[00:10:41] So those stories were a reflection of my mental health, but the envelope and distributing it, that's the third part.

[00:10:49] And I've always loved magic and it sounds a bit daft, but just that sort of, you know, those impossible things and just giving somebody a special moment.

[00:11:00] And I always thought of this as a magic trick and it's, for me, it was a story.

[00:11:07] But I just thought if I do 100 of those, there's going to be one person out of that 100 that's just walking along and having a bad time.

[00:11:15] And he's going to find this random envelope.

[00:11:17] And I always positioned it as if it was real.

[00:11:20] And I wasn't trying to trick people.

[00:11:21] And if anyone contacted me, I always told them, no, it's a fictional story.

[00:11:25] But I did everything I could to make that moment feel real.

[00:11:29] So the story I put, you know, I signed it as Matt.

[00:11:34] I made it sound.

[00:11:35] But in the story, how he gets this envelope, how he gets this gift, it's completely magical.

[00:11:40] It's almost like a festive fairy tale.

[00:11:43] So you've sort of find this envelope, you read this story, is this real?

[00:11:47] But then there's a magical moment in it.

[00:11:49] Well, that can't be real, but I've got and you've got this tangible gift.

[00:11:53] So for me, it was meant to be it was meant to create a special magic moment.

[00:11:59] And that's what it did.

[00:12:00] It so many people were just this.

[00:12:04] I was part of the book when I was doing that.

[00:12:07] I was doing some social media and I had a lady ping me.

[00:12:10] Massia, she was one of the first people that found one of these eight years later still carries the card in her wallet every single day

[00:12:18] and talking about how that inspired a massive change with her and the things she's done since, you know, it meant something to people.

[00:12:25] Hello, it's Volker here.

[00:12:27] I hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:12:30] You might not realize that I have been coaching for almost a decade through both third parties and private clients.

[00:12:37] During that time I've worked with brands such as General Electric, Imperial Brands, DHL and Pepsi.

[00:12:45] However, this year I'm putting a big emphasis on growing my private coaching practice,

[00:12:50] improving lives of middle-aged men in leadership positions.

[00:12:54] So if you hit midlife transition point and you might be a bit stuck or looking to improve your work life balance,

[00:13:00] your career or productivity, you want to build a new habit where you just want to become a better version of yourself.

[00:13:08] Please hit me up.

[00:13:10] You can reach me on Volker.natus, that's Volker at obnat.us or LinkedIn, whatever is easiest.

[00:13:20] Thanks and now back to the episode.

[00:13:25] You know, me and Volker have talked about, I don't know, we're not religious but I guess, you know,

[00:13:32] we both have like, I'd say, you know, Buddhist leanings and you know, I guess a lot of that is kind of,

[00:13:41] well, I guess, you know, with most religions it is, you know, about being kindness and yeah.

[00:13:48] I mean, like I guess the reason that I asked those questions is partly because I'm like,

[00:13:53] oh, I'm a bit jealous, I'd like to have done something like that because yeah, you know,

[00:13:58] there is sort of something about, yeah, and you get the occasional story on social media of,

[00:14:04] oh, you know, I was at the checkout and I didn't quite have enough and then person behind me like, I ate it.

[00:14:10] And I mean, you know, we do just hear all the worst stuff generally in news and on social media but yeah,

[00:14:21] and you know, and I think the fact that also while I've given that example of not having enough money at the supermarket

[00:14:27] and someone paying, I think with your initiative the fact that there isn't any money involved but it, you know,

[00:14:34] and in a lot of ways it's so much more powerful.

[00:14:38] To be fair, there was a lot of money involved, all of it mine, but I spent just, trust me,

[00:14:44] have you asked my wife if she ever found out how much I spent doing this?

[00:14:48] Well, I guess rather than like leaving £10 notes or you know, a wooden ticket sort of thing.

[00:14:54] But it's also and you know, I think this plays into the bit of the thought process but as much as that's a good thing for the people that find it,

[00:15:03] I also recognise it was feeding my creativity so I loved writing stories, I loved doing it and then I'd get these responses from people

[00:15:13] that's like, I found this and that would mean something to me.

[00:15:16] So there's a real element of it is a two way thing is that that sort of kindness and again that's part of the thought process of doing good deeds.

[00:15:25] It's nice for those people who find it but it also pays for the person who's doing it as well.

[00:15:31] Yeah, alright, well here's a question then.

[00:15:35] How would you feel if you'd not had any feedback at all?

[00:15:39] Yeah, no it's a great question that the reality is I wouldn't have been what it was so it always, I always felt right I'm doing this.

[00:15:48] I know it sounds crazy and I'd explain it to people and they'd sort of look at me quizzically and saying you're doing what

[00:15:54] and I did a hundred to start with and my view was if I find that one person it's worked and I was convinced myself.

[00:16:03] I was like this can work because part of it was like if I find that it blow my mind.

[00:16:08] I'd love it and I just thought it'll work and if I'd had done a hundred and nobody had got back to me

[00:16:15] I probably wouldn't have done anymore.

[00:16:17] You know the principle was I think I can find someone and it'll work and it sort of worked out out of a hundred.

[00:16:26] I'm not mathematical here but roughly 10 to 15% I would get sort of responses if you see what they're in there about

[00:16:33] because a lot of them, some of it would blow away.

[00:16:36] Some people would find them and just not interested.

[00:16:38] Some people sort of open it and that I don't really read much to chuck it away.

[00:16:42] Other people, I found one on social media somebody was posting something in an Orich group

[00:16:47] and then it was just a random comment and somebody posted something else and they were like oh I found one of these

[00:16:52] so they didn't contact me directly but they found it and were talking about how profound and so there's a lot of people

[00:16:59] that also wouldn't even reach out on social media.

[00:17:01] So it was a combination but no I wouldn't have continued if I'd had radio silence.

[00:17:08] Yeah, I mean and as of the moment I kind of asked that question

[00:17:13] it sort of suddenly made me think I mean like me and Volker sort of say well

[00:17:17] you know we obviously want to grow an audience but if you know we can

[00:17:24] we joyfully talk about suicide a lot but you know it's almost like

[00:17:29] if there's one person that we could stop doing that then we've done something

[00:17:35] and the guess sort of what you've said I think it was before we started recording

[00:17:41] but you mentioned that episode of the podcast and you're like I will actually that's had an impact on me

[00:17:46] and we I mean but when we got that first email and it was about neurodiversity

[00:17:51] and I was talking about my sort of experiences with getting an adult neurodizer via CT diagnosis in adulthood

[00:17:59] and then we got an email from a listener and you know he's like it was nothing I'd ever considered

[00:18:06] but you know it kind of resonated and you know we were like right well that's almost job done

[00:18:13] you know pat on the back that's kind of what we wanted and as you say it's well and Volker

[00:18:18] you know Volker is the sales guy so it is that thing of you know you've got to make

[00:18:23] well if you don't make the calls you don't get the sales but you know you've got to

[00:18:28] reach out to enough people to you know get the response.

[00:18:32] Yeah and to that point earlier I was talking about the podcast with Andy and around alcohol

[00:18:40] and I've done dry January for the first time and inspired very much from listening to your podcast on that

[00:18:46] and I think it's about it's helped I had a lot of thoughts around my relationship with alcohol

[00:18:51] and other bits over the years and that's the first time that I'd done it so I've been sitting listening to that podcast

[00:18:57] and it was a bit of a moment for me as like you know what I'm going to do that and it was great

[00:19:03] and I will do it again and it certainly made me just think a little bit more about that in general

[00:19:10] I also think that there's a bit of a contrast like you say or a bit of an overlap about that building

[00:19:16] that what I used to daydream about my envelopes all the book being global and massive and everywhere

[00:19:22] it's going to go viral and then over the years when it doesn't you do almost have to accept

[00:19:28] what is that enough am I enjoying the process and that getting that feedback so you're getting some emails

[00:19:34] or you're having a conversation like this where somebody what you've done has resonated

[00:19:38] there's a moment and a connection is that enough for you if it didn't sort of take off and become

[00:19:45] the next high performance podcast or whatever it might be sort of thing and that's a question

[00:19:51] I've asked myself sort of with the envelopes with the book if it's not going to be that big thing

[00:19:57] that changes my life actually do I get enough enjoyment out of it and the feedback that I get

[00:20:03] and the answer for me isn't very much a yes you know I've had just getting those moments

[00:20:07] getting those emails and those connections with people means a lot you're making a difference

[00:20:12] I'm trying to get a word in now yeah not that high vulgar you record for keep yeah nice to meet you

[00:20:22] yeah nice to meet you too the start of this this cool co-host of podcast was David I got a lot more

[00:20:29] patient on the podcast that's it's great have you ever thought of expanding it to other cities

[00:20:38] I mean I know you said you even up eventually right but I mean I just looked it up to be honest

[00:20:42] it's about 150 or 350 thousand right yeah yeah no no no it went everywhere so envelopes went to

[00:20:50] so I gained I did through social media gained in the years I had hundreds of volunteers

[00:20:55] so I'd I'd the envelopes create a little pack and send it out so we did London

[00:21:01] Manchester Newcastle's Edinburgh Glasgow Carlile Nottingham Derby Arlaman White you know you name it

[00:21:11] there wasn't many cities we didn't get to so yeah yeah I thought you just walked around Norwich and left

[00:21:18] you know these envelopes in the road okay sorry I did I did I did it initially but then

[00:21:25] expanded over the next five years side I had literally hundreds of volunteers so people

[00:21:31] who'd found them people who found it on social media I did a bit of press TV local papers

[00:21:38] and then people would just reach out game touch and yeah and this is part of where and

[00:21:44] and I think this is where like I say it'll go into the kind mind method but this is

[00:21:48] really what inspired it the kindness of other people you get all of these people

[00:21:51] no idea some people never even read the story no idea was that can I distribute your envelopes

[00:21:57] and I think you don't even know what's in there and they'd get them and they'd be sending

[00:22:02] and you know just traipsing around their local place leaving these random envelopes

[00:22:07] it is great and and people got as much enjoyment out of distributing those envelopes

[00:22:13] as reading it they felt I'd get so many people coming back it's really exciting I left this envelope

[00:22:19] I sat there and watched and somebody came and picked it up and opened it and and then I feel

[00:22:24] like I'm doing something good yeah it was many levels that's brilliant so I was

[00:22:30] aware of that sorry if I mis-missed that earlier no no no that was so you know

[00:22:36] you know David's voice just you know put me in its spell

[00:22:42] that's that's that's fantastic because I thought you know if you just go around

[00:22:45] Norwich right why don't you do more that's interesting that you said you stopped it in 2020

[00:22:50] so did you stop it essentially because of lockdown or could have that not been a cat no

[00:22:55] so I think that more probably leads on to to the next bit which is is the kind

[00:23:02] mind method so so I did that for five years and it was very much I thought

[00:23:09] it gave me a respite from my depression to be blunt so it was it was it was a

[00:23:15] positive thing in my life that was making a difference but after five years

[00:23:21] my depression had overtook the positivity that had given me that I was just

[00:23:26] I'm done it it felt like I'm searching for an answer by doing these and after

[00:23:32] five years I haven't got an answer it's not it's not changed me I'm still

[00:23:37] stuck inside of my own head and then it was that point two weeks later after I'd

[00:23:43] stopped that I went away over that weekend and discovered that thought

[00:23:48] process and literally like I say I walked in weekend on the Friday depressed

[00:23:54] anxious it was it was a friend's 40th surprise birthday party and I was

[00:24:01] absolutely did not want to be going there because I get quite socially anxious

[00:24:06] and walked out like I say completely changed and the thought process just

[00:24:11] sort of emerged over that weekend and I think having lots of people around is

[00:24:16] probably one of the reasons it sort of worked but it is just those two questions

[00:24:20] I'd say how can I help them how can I make them smile so I've got all of these

[00:24:23] people around me at this sort of party normally be very very anxious and it

[00:24:27] just sort of swirled and emerged over that that period and I just be asking

[00:24:32] myself that question the whole time so instead of worrying about God what am I

[00:24:36] gonna say do they think I'm an idiot or blah blah blah just repeat in my head how

[00:24:40] can I help them how can I make them smile I can help them I've met as far and

[00:24:43] I look over at the people around me and think about a positive way I could

[00:24:49] engage and I've just carried that on every day that that thought process

[00:24:54] I ask that and it's just transformed genuinely transformed my life and and

[00:25:02] others you know to that point earlier about you know making the difference it

[00:25:06] it is a little bit like the envelopes does it work for a period of time is

[00:25:10] this gonna work for anybody else and and it has man up man down is

[00:25:15] sponsored by well-doing there's someone who has seen a counsellor for a

[00:25:18] number of years I think their approach is great they want me to find the

[00:25:21] mental health professional who is right for you you can filter your search to

[00:25:25] highlight therapists with expertise where you need it we can pay to use their

[00:25:29] personalized matching service the people who run well-doing are experts in

[00:25:34] mental well-being may also have loads of posts and interviews to keep your

[00:25:37] mental health in good shape take a look at well-doing.org

[00:25:42] I don't know what else to ask to be honest because this is this this is

[00:25:45] just so great we're having a book afterwards I take it so yeah so

[00:25:51] this is the kind mind method so it's a book and it's all about that

[00:25:55] thought process and really I think there's a I explain it to people it's

[00:26:00] almost like well that seemed so simple how why does that that work and I

[00:26:06] really think you know it is just about asking those two questions and I've

[00:26:10] embraced that those two questions have fundamentally changed me they are

[00:26:15] the foundation of my engagement with the wider world you know it's flipped

[00:26:19] to that that kindness and to that point let's say with the envelopes when I

[00:26:24] distributed them it's doing a good deed for others but actually it's helping me

[00:26:29] and it's the same with those questions I'm just how can I help them how can I

[00:26:32] make them smart and I've always said there's three elements about why this

[00:26:37] thought process works so well to address negative thinking and anxiety

[00:26:43] and those three things are kindness simplicity and choice so the first

[00:26:49] one kindness you have talked about it but there was a study in 2021 was a

[00:26:54] University of Sussex and they did like an online questionnaire 60,000

[00:26:59] people bigger study ever around kindness and the power of it and what

[00:27:05] they demonstrated from the data is that the kindness can be really

[00:27:10] positive for your mental health but as much for the person who is doing that

[00:27:15] kindness there is demonstrable that that can improve your mental health can

[00:27:20] make you happier and the thing about those two questions is ask them how can I

[00:27:25] help them how can I make them smile how can I help them how can I make them

[00:27:27] smile and where you'd have a positive mantra that might be I am strong I

[00:27:32] am great I'm gonna that doesn't take you anywhere and I'm quite a

[00:27:36] creative person but I ask those questions and I'm repeating them and it's

[00:27:41] giving me a place my creativity can go you know how can I help them how can I

[00:27:46] make them smile then can be anyone how can I help them or smile I've got

[00:27:51] different way to engage because if it was just how can I make someone smile

[00:27:54] it's like too narrow you know how can I help or smile there's anything

[00:27:59] and the thing is any of the questions anytime I answer that question just by

[00:28:04] daydreaming about a good thing I could do I can maybe how can I help them I'll

[00:28:09] maybe do something for my wife or how can I make them smile maybe a joke for

[00:28:12] my kids or whatever it is it will always always always be a kind outcome

[00:28:18] you know doesn't matter how I answer the question it will be a positive

[00:28:22] good thing so any thought I have is is a positive one so that's the kindness

[00:28:28] element so it's kindness simplicity and choice the second part simplicity is I've

[00:28:34] had so many people who've read the book and that's one of the key things that

[00:28:38] come out of this one of the comments that came back it's simple but genius

[00:28:42] because so many people get tied in knots with the different ways to manage your

[00:28:48] negative thinking your mental health do some journaling do species I tried

[00:28:54] meditation CBT journal that you name it I tried it and for me the things helped

[00:29:02] but things just didn't sort of have just did just so many of them just didn't

[00:29:07] take they just sort of like they soften the edges but it never really sort of

[00:29:12] transformed and I think with this it is just two questions just constantly ask

[00:29:18] those questions and then the last bit kindness simplicity choice this is what

[00:29:24] those two questions give me and this is what I never had before with my

[00:29:28] negative thoughts I never felt like I had a choice because I'd start thinking about

[00:29:35] something I think a happy nice thought but it would always end up at negative

[00:29:38] and they felt like there was nowhere else for me to go I just couldn't get out of

[00:29:44] that negative thought and CBT that's you imagine it as your thought as a fluffy

[00:29:51] cloud I'm not going to engage with it but then I didn't have a fluffy cloud I had

[00:29:56] a bloody thunderstorm there that you know there'd be a hundred thousand other

[00:30:01] negative thoughts coming and the difference now is I have a negative

[00:30:05] thought about that it pop into my head they still come all the time and I

[00:30:10] simply ask those questions I just ask those questions and I have a choice and

[00:30:15] I see it I can see my negative thoughts and it's there but I just keep asking the

[00:30:20] questions how can I help them how can I make them smile and I now have a

[00:30:24] different thought I can engage with that I know can be creative I can go

[00:30:28] somewhere and it will always be positive and the best of the last little bit

[00:30:32] on this one is the best example I can give you is the school run I

[00:30:39] take my kids for like 10 minute walking and so often before I used to walk in

[00:30:45] with the kids and I'd walk out the door on the left hand side I've got my worries

[00:30:50] redundancy death divorce whatever it might be on the right hand side I've

[00:30:54] got my two kids Dexter and Brody and we'd walk in and more often than not

[00:30:59] we'd walk in in silence because I'd be worrying about all of those things

[00:31:05] and if they said something it feel like an interruption you know just

[00:31:08] like that sort of cutting through my thoughts and we'd have a brief conversation

[00:31:13] now I walk out the door and on my left hand side I might still have my worries

[00:31:17] redundancy death divorce and on my right my children but the difference is I

[00:31:22] walk out and I ask those questions so how can I help them how can I make them smile

[00:31:28] redundancy death divorce my worries how can I help them Dexter how can I make

[00:31:34] them smile Brody it is the easiest thing in the world by asking those questions

[00:31:40] to step into the moment to just look down and just think of ways I can engage with

[00:31:47] them how can I help them I need to melt with your own words yeah how can I

[00:31:50] make them smile have a stupid conversation every single day in the last

[00:31:54] four years that I've walked my children to school I've asked those questions

[00:31:58] and I've engaged with them I've been there I'm in the moment and that was never

[00:32:04] the case before those just from two simple questions because what you're doing

[00:32:11] you change is in the dialogue right so you don't let your negative thoughts

[00:32:15] come to the forefront and instead as you just nicely said right you

[00:32:20] you gotta be in the moment right so you gotta be you know

[00:32:24] what it mindful is you know whatever you want to call it but you're in the moment

[00:32:27] with your children which means by being in the moment you almost cannot have

[00:32:32] those negative thoughts right because you cannot focus on you know say the past

[00:32:37] or other future right I mean as David said right we you know I'm quite

[00:32:42] aligned to Buddhism but you can be in the moment and you forget about your

[00:32:46] thoughts and this is a mantra right those questions do exactly that they

[00:32:51] help you to focus on those moments I think it's a great you know great way of

[00:32:56] doing it and you know it obviously helps you with your depression and you know

[00:33:00] yeah it increases the quality of time you spend with you know with your

[00:33:05] children with your wife with you know whoever yeah I think makes a huge

[00:33:09] difference to to you and hopefully to a lot of others as well by

[00:33:14] you know to say copying or adopting you know that methodology

[00:33:19] it really is you absolutely right about being nothing puts me in the moment

[00:33:25] quicker than you know if I'm especially fun with people because I talk in the

[00:33:29] book the different ways of using it sort of active and passive engagement but

[00:33:33] active engagement is when I'm with people and if I ask that question I like

[00:33:37] say I used to get socially anxious I just ask that question how can I help

[00:33:41] them how can I smile it steamrolls my worry and I'm in the moment and

[00:33:45] I just look around and instead of literally instead of worrying about what

[00:33:49] I might say or do I'm actively thinking about how I can positively engage with

[00:33:55] those people around me even if I don't say or do anything I'm really there and

[00:34:00] I'm on the front foot you know I'm sort of there just sort of right okay how

[00:34:04] can I what can I say what's a good thing and then you know you may be a

[00:34:07] bit worried no just ask those questions and I'm looking and I'm seeking

[00:34:10] ways to engage with with the world around me where before yeah just so much of

[00:34:15] it was that internal negative dialogue and yeah yeah I mean as I sort of admitted

[00:34:22] I've read some of the book I haven't finished it yet and and I can sort of

[00:34:28] understand and appreciate sort of the philosophies around it and I mean I

[00:34:33] find it sort of well interesting when you mentioned about your snowboarding

[00:34:36] accident and I mean well I'm not basically two weeks ago or almost three weeks

[00:34:44] ago I had a really nasty footballing injury which resulted in my two nights in

[00:34:50] hospital and I mean I had the cast off on Monday and they took some stitches

[00:34:55] out and then last night when I was having a bath I'm like oh it's 20

[00:35:00] stitches on the other side of my leg but I hadn't noticed I took yeah so

[00:35:05] that's why when I messaged earlier this morning saying oh there might be an

[00:35:09] issue you know laying in that hospital bed like a night not being able to get to

[00:35:15] sleep I wasn't thinking how can I make these people like laugh or you know how

[00:35:20] can I make them laugh how can I be kind I mean also sort of when you

[00:35:25] mentioned about like you know in the book you talked about how you

[00:35:30] sort of had this revelation and you had a really good night and I'm sort of

[00:35:36] thinking well I mean and I can fully appreciate like I'd so related to the

[00:35:42] emotions of you know and it's not necessarily the fact that you know

[00:35:46] these people when you like them but at that moment you're like the last

[00:35:50] thing I can see myself doing at the moment is you know going to a

[00:35:56] shit you like going to a house for a couple of days with a load of people

[00:36:00] yet and I guess part of my anxiety often comes from all these people aren't

[00:36:11] gonna get the David that makes them smile or the David that makes them happy

[00:36:16] they're gonna get the miserable sod doesn't want to talk to anyone

[00:36:21] and or and if he is it's gonna be it's gonna need a few drinks and then

[00:36:26] yeah and then the next morning I'm kind of like whoa you know who was that

[00:36:33] person who was that gregarious person last night and then the people that

[00:36:37] I'd see in the morning won't see the same person but they've seen that night

[00:36:41] no and and again like sort of going back to the whole sort of alcohol

[00:36:46] conversation like alcohol fuels my anxiety so it's almost like that more

[00:36:51] that next morning that you described when when you were like oh well how can I

[00:36:56] help them how can I make them smile and and you started helping a friend with

[00:36:59] washing up as I or you know sort of remember correctly I just sort of

[00:37:04] think I've got in that you know in that state I'd probably just be sitting

[00:37:07] outside on my games but it's a really good point so there's there's two

[00:37:12] bits some back there actually so when you talk about being in hospital

[00:37:15] and you know you couldn't sort of help them as well the first thing is is a

[00:37:21] lot of people get the misconception that asking those questions is about doing

[00:37:25] good stuff for other people and without sounding bad I don't give a shit about

[00:37:31] doing good stuff for other people and that sounds really counterintuitive

[00:37:34] and makes no sense but the reality is those two questions have one singular

[00:37:41] purpose stop me having negative thoughts don't give don't care by the rest of it

[00:37:47] now don't get me wrong I do because it's nice to do good deeds that's not what

[00:37:51] this is about so and it sounds great but example I give you is if you start

[00:37:58] thinking about this is me helping other people it breaks down and it falls

[00:38:02] apart so let's say I'm standing in there you mentioned about standing in

[00:38:06] the queue for your shopping I'm standing in the queue for my shopping and I

[00:38:10] have a negative thought and I start asking my questions how can I help them

[00:38:13] how can I make them smile and it stops I look around I see the world around me

[00:38:18] which is great and I start thinking okay there's the cashier I'm going to say

[00:38:22] some nice things to it could be simple as I'm gonna say something positive

[00:38:25] to make them have a good day and it takes a bit of time and then actually

[00:38:29] is a couple of days I get up to the cashier I said you know what I

[00:38:32] haven't got time she looks like a chatty one I can be here for ten minutes

[00:38:36] I'm just gonna pay for my stuff and bug her off yeah now if I walk out if I

[00:38:41] have linked this to doing good deeds if I think this is about me changing the

[00:38:46] world and doing good deeds I walk out that door and I think I failed I have

[00:38:50] failed I've not done anything now it the purpose of this if I think it's

[00:38:56] about make it stopping me having negative thoughts that's it that's it

[00:39:01] you know I walk out that door what do I think I think yes I've stood there for

[00:39:06] ten minutes and not had negative thoughts a negative thought popped in my

[00:39:10] head but I didn't focus on it because I focused on a positive thought about

[00:39:14] speaking to the person now I didn't speak to them but that doesn't matter

[00:39:18] you know I wasn't thinking negative thoughts that's that absolute critical

[00:39:23] part it's about changing your thought process now if I'd spoken to

[00:39:28] that lady or that gentleman that helps you know that embeds it more because

[00:39:34] the more you see the the benefits that you get that embeds that thought

[00:39:39] process even more so it's good but you know that's the extra benefit

[00:39:44] you get that's the free gift at the bottom of your serial is how I describe

[00:39:49] that it's not the fundamental part so I take that back to you sitting in

[00:39:55] the hospital you're sitting there and anything and you're worried about

[00:40:00] whether you're going to be able to play football again and you're worrying

[00:40:02] about what that means and whether your legs gonna be being or whether it's

[00:40:07] going to be hurting for the next few weeks or whether it thinks now you

[00:40:10] could ask those questions how can I help them how can I make them smile

[00:40:13] how can I help them how can I smile and you could use and see the people

[00:40:17] around you and you got a choice now your choice now is is there

[00:40:21] something positive I could do is it some way or even just a thought I could

[00:40:25] engage about my wife or a partner so whoever is there some positive

[00:40:31] thought or should I carry on worrying about whether I'll ever play football

[00:40:36] again we got a choice that's that's all it is the questions are there to

[00:40:41] drive a positive thought in your head they're not there to force you

[00:40:46] to step out and speak to the nurse now if you do great that that

[00:40:50] that's good you've had a positive engagement and frankly I think that

[00:40:54] five minutes thinking about the nurse and and asking her a question is

[00:40:57] probably more constructive than worried about whether you'll play football

[00:41:00] again because you can't do anything about that so if you think that those

[00:41:05] questions just about changing your thoughts rather than actually you

[00:41:10] got to step out and do that same again for a hangover wake up in the

[00:41:13] morning I do all the time wake up in the morning she hadn't drank so

[00:41:17] much my heart racing I feel terrible I'm there with the kids I can sit

[00:41:22] there and worry about whether I'm probably gonna have a stroke or heart

[00:41:25] attack or actually I can just ask my questions and engage with the world

[00:41:29] and have a bit more of a positive thought you know that it's just

[00:41:33] about changing that internal mindset yeah I mean I can sort of see

[00:41:38] the you know the actions of you know well replacing those negative

[00:41:43] thoughts and you know being in the present rather than projecting into

[00:41:47] the future but yeah I mean sort of I think with well and you know and

[00:41:52] it probably resonates at the moment more than ever but I sort of I

[00:41:57] remember like being up at the park with my son and you know and I was

[00:42:01] sort of thinking I was getting a bit cold of yeah I've got things to do

[00:42:05] and then I just sort of had a sudden moment of I know that there'll

[00:42:08] one day there'll be a time where I won't be able to do this and you

[00:42:13] know and I'll be thinking I'll give anything to be hanging out with

[00:42:18] Oscar kicking the ball around and you know at the moment I can't do

[00:42:22] that and you know and it wasn't like a sort of a morbid thought

[00:42:26] it's like well there will be a time when he gets to an age where he

[00:42:29] doesn't want to do that with his dad you know and also I think

[00:42:33] and Volker can probably speak more authoritatively about this than me

[00:42:38] but I think it is you know it's almost like there are tools or practices

[00:42:45] that you'll find in lots of different self-development you know sort of

[00:42:50] processes for one of the better phrase but you know it's kind of

[00:42:55] I think it is you know accepting that the world doesn't revolve around you

[00:43:00] well I just say that example of being with the kids and as I mentioned earlier

[00:43:04] but if I look on the last four years more than anything actually

[00:43:08] that's when I use that thought process a lot in the sense that

[00:43:12] in a few years they're not going to want to spend any time with me you know

[00:43:16] they're going to be off and doing their own thing and then

[00:43:18] and you know my 12 year old is starting to get to that point

[00:43:21] and if I look back the last four years the one thing I can't

[00:43:28] ask those questions when I'm with them you know so and it drives a conversation

[00:43:32] because often sometimes you know it's just about finding connections

[00:43:36] and things like that so that that school run again one of my kids is

[00:43:40] it's not really a morning person and actually he would just sort of

[00:43:43] trundle a lot I literally just walk out how can I and we just make

[00:43:46] conversations we I'm digging for something you know it's kind of

[00:43:50] that that kind of kind of make him laugh asking him about fortnight

[00:43:53] and things like that and I know if I look back on my death bed

[00:43:57] when I'm 102 and still come to see my last days

[00:44:01] I'll look back and know that that I was absolutely there

[00:44:06] and you know before that wasn't the case when when I was struggling

[00:44:09] with my mental health because you're so internally focused

[00:44:13] and that's that's not great so you know for that just by

[00:44:17] asking those questions I'm I'm there and I'm I'm with them

[00:44:21] and I'm engaging and look for me that's more than enough

[00:44:24] well sadly we are pretty much out of time but

[00:44:28] I mean if people want to find out more about you Alex

[00:44:31] they want to get the book coming obviously it's available on Amazon

[00:44:34] but what what are your social channels etc

[00:44:38] and obviously yeah not in the show notes as well so

[00:44:41] no that's great so yeah it's available on Amazon

[00:44:45] the kind mind method and also go to

[00:44:49] website so the kind mind method dot com and probably

[00:44:52] most active on LinkedIn actually so been posting a few articles

[00:44:56] and other bits and mobs on there so yeah reach out

[00:45:00] love to hear from anybody who's who's interested wants to know

[00:45:03] wants to know more and and and look David Volcker

[00:45:07] being being great to be on really appreciate you having me on

[00:45:10] and massive thanks for me well put your view on thank you

[00:45:14] and great story I mean I say I've got a word in but

[00:45:17] you know

[00:45:22] thanks for listening to this week's episode

[00:45:26] feel free to reach out to folk or David via our website

[00:45:31] www.manupdown.com

[00:45:32] or podcast at manupdown.com with any feedback

[00:45:35] or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future

[00:45:38] hear you again soon