A Band of Brothers

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Man Up Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're

[00:00:16] often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:20] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com.

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:34] Hello, welcome to another episode of Man Up Man Down.

[00:00:37] On today's episode this is one that I've been looking forward to quite a while.

[00:00:40] It's an organisation that got in touch with us quite a while ago but let's know we've

[00:00:44] been victims of our own success that we've had interviews booked in so far in advance.

[00:00:49] So on today we have Bernie Orton from Abandoned Brothers.

[00:00:55] Abandoned Brothers is an organisation that was founded in 2009 and it works with

[00:00:59] young men who have been involved in the criminal justice system, many of whom

[00:01:03] have experienced traumatic events early in their lives such as the breakup of family,

[00:01:07] being placed in care, who have struggled with issues such as substance and alcohol abuse

[00:01:12] and homelessness.

[00:01:14] The aim is to help them transition to adulthood that is not only crime free but one of the

[00:01:19] greatest sense of purpose and responsibility.

[00:01:21] It's an interesting fact that, you know, I say interesting, it's not a good fact

[00:01:27] but over half of the nearly 80,000 prisoners in UK prisons have poor mental health according

[00:01:33] to analysis from the Institute of Psychiatry and campaigners also point out that children

[00:01:38] and young people who come into contact with the criminal justice system are three times

[00:01:43] more likely to have mental health problems than those who do not.

[00:01:46] I mean, I sort of have a personal opinion that, you know, I'd be interested to

[00:01:52] know sort of how many diagnosed cases of neurodiversity, ADHD, you know, are in the prison system because,

[00:02:00] you know, I think, you know, obviously we're going to talk about some amazing work that

[00:02:04] you guys do but, you know, I guess a lot of the work, you know, it's could we get

[00:02:09] in there sooner?

[00:02:10] But anyway, sorry, Bernie, I'm rambling already.

[00:02:13] Thanks for joining us.

[00:02:14] Love to hear more and, you know, tell us about how you got involved with this

[00:02:18] organisation.

[00:02:19] So I got involved through a social media campaign on Facebook that I popped up on an

[00:02:26] algorithm somewhere and got sent a message about a group in Oxford that was talking to

[00:02:33] support mentor young men in the community.

[00:02:37] That sparked an interest.

[00:02:38] I went along to a meeting and met some other men who had a similar motivation and some

[00:02:45] of them were already working in that area and it appealed.

[00:02:49] And two weeks later, I was in a field in Sussex with a group of men from around the country

[00:02:55] who were also interested in this work.

[00:02:58] That was the beginning of my journey with the band of brothers.

[00:03:01] When I joined that organisation, what you described there was very much part of what

[00:03:06] we were doing and still do.

[00:03:09] I would like to just add a little nuance and that's so much as one of the things

[00:03:13] we would like to be and that we would be successful as if the young man who we're

[00:03:19] working with had never been arrested or never been on probation, never been on

[00:03:24] remand.

[00:03:26] And so one of the things we also try to address is young men who are at risk of

[00:03:31] involvement in the criminal justice system.

[00:03:34] You mentioned in your introduction and your own personal perspective that you're

[00:03:38] curious about how many men in the criminal justice system had undiagnosed or

[00:03:45] diagnosed diversity and I think it's a very significant number.

[00:03:49] That might be one of the reasons why that young man feels isolated or is

[00:03:57] seeking engagement with a group of people looking for inclusion.

[00:04:01] There's always a need to get the guidance he needs.

[00:04:06] We also know a significant number of those young men have challenges with

[00:04:10] learning.

[00:04:12] It might be dyslexia, dyspraxia, that type of neurodiverse.

[00:04:16] Diodiversity could simply be illiteracy or enumeracy or lack of confidence.

[00:04:23] And so yeah, the root cause or the reasons because it's very rarely is

[00:04:29] it one thing what drives our behaviour is often some of the things you

[00:04:35] talked about that we know that from the young men that we support who choose

[00:04:42] it take upon themselves to seek getting mentoring from an organisation like ourselves.

[00:04:48] I mean, it's sort of, I guess, well my perspective and understanding is that

[00:04:55] you know, all those sort of conditions, I'm not sure if that's the correct

[00:05:00] phrase, but you know with dyslexia and dyspraxia and other neurodiverse

[00:05:06] conditions, it is that feeling of isolation and not feeling understood.

[00:05:12] I mean, I looked at a video on the website and there was some quotes

[00:05:16] with the guys that you work with and one was it was amazing to know

[00:05:20] that someone was on my side and to know I could talk to someone without

[00:05:24] them judging me.

[00:05:25] And again, I sort of think about, I just, I mean,

[00:05:30] a number of people that me and Volker have sort of interviewed where,

[00:05:34] you know, they've kind of with neurodiversity, but they've,

[00:05:39] they've, you know, luckily, you know, they've made it and they've done

[00:05:42] very well, but they talk about at school, you know, they were isolated

[00:05:46] and seen as sort of well being judged.

[00:05:50] And I can just imagine that that is so much a part of what these young

[00:05:55] guys go through is constantly being judged and misunderstood.

[00:05:59] And sorry, there was another quote there, which was I wish I'd known

[00:06:03] about Band of Brothers a long time before because I would have saved

[00:06:06] myself six or seven years in prison.

[00:06:08] It's a very powerful quote there.

[00:06:11] I'm glad you mentioned that video because it sits on the home page

[00:06:15] of our website, bandofbrothers.org.

[00:06:17] It's four minutes long.

[00:06:18] And I don't think there's a better way of describing what we do

[00:06:22] because it's the experience of men who've been supported by our

[00:06:26] organization and men who work in our organization.

[00:06:29] It's their word.

[00:06:30] So it's a much better representation of our organization

[00:06:33] than I can provide in the podcast.

[00:06:35] So if any of your listeners have got four minutes of spare,

[00:06:38] I would urge them to go and have a quick look at what that

[00:06:42] it's obviously had an impact on you.

[00:06:44] And I hope it will have the same impact on them.

[00:06:48] That'd be great.

[00:06:49] Having said that, I'm also here to answer your questions

[00:06:51] and share it with you as well.

[00:06:54] Yeah, I did.

[00:06:55] All those things you talked about, those are,

[00:06:58] I think they're the common experience of all of us.

[00:07:01] You know, there are, you and I have been judged in our past

[00:07:05] by people often extraordinary well-meaning, loving people

[00:07:11] who are doing the best thing they can

[00:07:15] or the best they believe they're doing

[00:07:17] and in doing so, can touch a nerve.

[00:07:20] You know, I'll speak to my own experience.

[00:07:22] So I remember many, many, many occasions

[00:07:26] when my mum said to me, you know, how's good?

[00:07:28] But hey, what if you'd done this?

[00:07:32] And I carried that for a long time.

[00:07:34] And it, you know, compared to some of the.

[00:07:40] Crap people have to carry that may not be very significant

[00:07:44] or in my mind, it didn't seem very significant.

[00:07:47] And one of the things I learned about being

[00:07:49] in the band of brothers was a recognizing that

[00:07:53] the stone in your shoe is uncomfortable

[00:07:55] and you will feel better and be a better person

[00:07:58] when you get rid of it.

[00:08:00] It doesn't matter what the stone is.

[00:08:02] Doesn't matter how big it is.

[00:08:05] It's making you uncomfortable

[00:08:08] and then we get and help you support you,

[00:08:10] swallowing in that process.

[00:08:12] Then you're going to be in a better position

[00:08:14] to do all sorts of things.

[00:08:17] And that's what we try to do when we were

[00:08:19] women venturing the young man.

[00:08:21] So welcome from me as well.

[00:08:23] I mean, how does it look like day to day?

[00:08:26] So how do I, you know, without having watched the video,

[00:08:28] I want to be honest, how but I will,

[00:08:31] you know, how does it work on a daily basis?

[00:08:33] Do if I say do you go out and if I say find offenders

[00:08:35] and talk to the police or do you do rooms

[00:08:38] or streets off, you know, Oxford and, you know,

[00:08:40] you obviously in a few location.

[00:08:41] In most cases, young men are referred to us

[00:08:46] by an agency who's already working with them.

[00:08:50] Now that ain't in Seattle, I'll use the word agency.

[00:08:52] It may be a government organization.

[00:08:56] It could be like police and probation service.

[00:08:59] It could be part of social services.

[00:09:02] Significant number of the young men

[00:09:05] who are referred to us have been in the care system.

[00:09:10] Because all the time we work with the adults,

[00:09:11] they're 18 years old then.

[00:09:14] And they now have agency.

[00:09:15] They have decision-making authority.

[00:09:18] They can decide things and they're responsible

[00:09:20] for their own decisions.

[00:09:22] And the only difference between the 18 year old

[00:09:24] who makes that and the 17 year old who is supported

[00:09:28] is one day our birthday.

[00:09:30] It's a, suddenly they're in that situation

[00:09:32] where they're held responsible for their own actions.

[00:09:35] And then they're not always resourced to do that.

[00:09:38] So an organization makes a referral

[00:09:40] to a band of brothers and we then put them in,

[00:09:44] we are mental coordinator.

[00:09:48] We have 13, 14 circles around the country.

[00:09:51] The local mental coordinator will call that young man,

[00:09:54] make contact and check on a couple of things.

[00:09:56] One, the first thing you wanna make sure

[00:09:58] is this is something that the young man wants them to

[00:10:00] himself.

[00:10:01] This is an opt-in.

[00:10:03] It's not a requirement.

[00:10:04] And by working with the band of brothers

[00:10:06] it makes no difference to the engagement

[00:10:09] that you might have with other organizations.

[00:10:11] So it's a personal decision by that young man.

[00:10:14] He wants to opt-in and find out a little bit more

[00:10:17] about what we do and how we work.

[00:10:19] And then repair him with a mentor.

[00:10:22] And that mentor will meet with him

[00:10:23] on a one-to-one basis for about an hour,

[00:10:27] 45 minutes to an hour once a week.

[00:10:29] Not only meet for a coffee somewhere neutral,

[00:10:32] somewhere where they can talk

[00:10:35] with a degree of confidentiality,

[00:10:37] but it's also a place where they both feel comfortable

[00:10:40] in the community.

[00:10:42] Very good opportunities to go for a walk.

[00:10:45] Because when we walk and talk,

[00:10:47] you can have quite long silences on a walk

[00:10:50] and they're okay.

[00:10:52] And time to think about what you wanna say next.

[00:10:54] And it's just a neutral place

[00:10:56] where you can start to build a relationship

[00:11:01] based on trust.

[00:11:03] And while we have a number of topics

[00:11:08] that we're looking to,

[00:11:10] that we know from our experience

[00:11:11] are worthwhile talking about with a young man,

[00:11:14] it's really, we're trying to create circumstances

[00:11:18] which he feels comfortable in driving the conversation.

[00:11:22] I don't know what it is

[00:11:23] that's really important to him

[00:11:25] until I've had the opportunity

[00:11:27] to listen to him really carefully.

[00:11:29] That's one of the things we try to do

[00:11:31] is just listen really carefully, actively and without judgment.

[00:11:35] Because what we might hear to begin with might not be

[00:11:39] the thing that the young man wants to talk about.

[00:11:42] We don't always reveal ourselves immediately.

[00:11:44] We want to test the waters a little bit.

[00:11:47] What do I think this guy's coming on to talk to me?

[00:11:50] I need to understand a little bit more about him.

[00:11:54] So we also explain about our background

[00:11:56] and why we,

[00:11:57] that one-to-one mentoring takes place

[00:12:00] for around about 10 to 12 weeks.

[00:12:02] And what we're called the National Quest

[00:12:06] Preparation Cycle,

[00:12:08] NQPC, because what we're trying to do

[00:12:11] is help that young man prepare for the next stage

[00:12:15] of our engulgence with him,

[00:12:17] which is to invite him to come away with us for a weekend.

[00:12:21] And that weekend is spent in the company

[00:12:24] of other young men who are also going through their mentoring.

[00:12:28] And what we're going to offer them,

[00:12:30] what we do offer them is a contemporary rite of passage.

[00:12:33] It's a really clear threshold

[00:12:38] between adolescence and the responsibilities

[00:12:42] of a mature adult man.

[00:12:44] And during that weekend where we don't have any telephones,

[00:12:49] we don't have any radio, we don't have any clocks,

[00:12:52] we just spend time talking to each other

[00:12:55] and listening to each other through a guided program.

[00:12:59] And I think in essence, what we're saying to young man is,

[00:13:03] you know, what's your story?

[00:13:05] Is that the story you want to tell about yourself?

[00:13:09] And if it's not the story you want to tell,

[00:13:11] well, what do you wanna do different?

[00:13:14] What's the story you want to tell

[00:13:16] and how do we help you get from where you are now

[00:13:18] to where you can tell that story

[00:13:20] with all authenticity and truth?

[00:13:23] And that's a big step.

[00:13:25] And I don't know what it is for each man

[00:13:27] until I've had a chance to listen to him

[00:13:29] and why peers and other mentors will be listening

[00:13:33] and supporting him.

[00:13:36] And when he has decided that's what he wants to do,

[00:13:39] then the third stage of our program

[00:13:42] is to stand alongside him

[00:13:43] and help him move towards that objective.

[00:13:46] And that objective might be six months in advance,

[00:13:50] it might be two years, who knows what it might be?

[00:13:53] But we're not there to tell him,

[00:13:55] we're not standing in front of him and saying,

[00:13:57] follow me, I'll show you.

[00:13:59] We don't stand behind him and say,

[00:14:00] you need to go this way.

[00:14:02] We stand beside him and say, I'll walk with you.

[00:14:05] I'll support you, but these are your decisions

[00:14:09] you're making and if I can help you

[00:14:12] to think about the options

[00:14:14] and weigh up the pros and cons of decisions

[00:14:17] and then you to make a decision

[00:14:19] and then I'll hold you accountable.

[00:14:20] So if you say you're going to get this done by next week,

[00:14:24] when we meet next week,

[00:14:25] one of the things I'll ask is, have you done that?

[00:14:28] And if you have, fantastic.

[00:14:31] And if you haven't, no judgment,

[00:14:34] but there might be some reasons why

[00:14:36] and that might be worth exploring.

[00:14:38] So that's the nature of the work we do.

[00:14:41] We're not a therapeutic or a clinical organisation.

[00:14:44] As I know, you're one of the themes around your podcast

[00:14:47] is mental health, but you know,

[00:14:50] mental health and wellbeing might be

[00:14:54] one of the things that this young man is looking to address.

[00:14:57] Hello, it's Volker here.

[00:14:59] I hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:15:02] You might not realise that I have been coaching

[00:15:04] for almost a decade through both third parties

[00:15:07] and private clients.

[00:15:09] During that time, I've worked with brands

[00:15:11] such as General Electric, Imperial Brands, DHL and Pepsi.

[00:15:17] However, this year I'm putting a big emphasis

[00:15:20] on growing my private coaching practice,

[00:15:22] improving lives of middle-aged men in leadership positions.

[00:15:26] So if you hit mid-life transition point

[00:15:28] and you might be a bit stuck

[00:15:30] or looking to improve your work-life balance,

[00:15:32] your career or productivity,

[00:15:35] you want to build a new habit

[00:15:37] where you just want to become a better version of yourself.

[00:15:40] Please hit me up.

[00:15:42] You can reach me on Volker.natus, that's Volker at

[00:15:46] obnat.us or LinkedIn, whatever is easiest.

[00:15:53] Thanks and now back to the episode.

[00:15:58] I mean, as I say, it's a classic coaching approach, right?

[00:16:02] You give them enough guidance,

[00:16:04] but they have to make their own decisions and move forward.

[00:16:08] I mean, how well is it accepted by, if I say, youngsters?

[00:16:13] Right? So I'm just envisaging it.

[00:16:16] Please tell me, I'm totally on the wrong track here.

[00:16:20] If you are, I don't know, 17, 18, right?

[00:16:23] You're on the wrong side of the tracks.

[00:16:25] You got yourself in trouble.

[00:16:28] And there's a man coming up to you,

[00:16:31] if I say a man coming up to you, it's a bit dodgy.

[00:16:32] But you get introduced to someone,

[00:16:36] if I say a little bit older and wiser.

[00:16:38] And that process, I teach you how to not go into prison kind of thing

[00:16:43] and help you in your life.

[00:16:44] People go like, oh yeah, this is great, this is what I want to do.

[00:16:47] Or is there more of a hesitant bit where they go like,

[00:16:50] oh actually, I already have social services,

[00:16:52] I don't need someone else to tell me what to do.

[00:16:55] How is it accepted?

[00:16:57] So there are things that we offer, which we believe differentiate ourselves

[00:17:02] significantly from,

[00:17:04] I'm not taking away from the amazing work

[00:17:06] that's done by people in social services

[00:17:09] and supported accommodation, lease and probation.

[00:17:12] So a lot of those organizations,

[00:17:15] they're statutory organizations,

[00:17:17] they are working very hard, they're overstretched,

[00:17:21] they're underfunded, all sorts of issues.

[00:17:23] There's a couple of differences.

[00:17:25] One, we're volunteers.

[00:17:27] I don't do this for a job.

[00:17:29] I do this because I think it's important in my community.

[00:17:33] Now that surprises most young men.

[00:17:37] Why would this person give up their time

[00:17:40] to spend it with me for no reward?

[00:17:44] Whereas the reward is astonishing.

[00:17:48] Absolutely mind-blowing.

[00:17:50] When a young man does come back and say,

[00:17:54] you know what, as a result of talking to you

[00:17:57] or your organization and your peers,

[00:18:00] I now have a job.

[00:18:02] Or I have a family.

[00:18:03] I've reestablished a link with somebody who's really important to me.

[00:18:07] In some cases, I'm only a lie

[00:18:12] because of the things that you did for me.

[00:18:16] So the first thing is we're volunteers.

[00:18:18] The second thing is

[00:18:21] that young man is making a judgment about us.

[00:18:25] And we might address that and say,

[00:18:27] are you making assumptions about me?

[00:18:30] Because I'm trying really hard

[00:18:31] not to make assumptions about you.

[00:18:34] And you don't know my lived experience.

[00:18:37] And we come, the men who come with a huge variety

[00:18:42] of their lived experience.

[00:18:46] If I don't mind, David,

[00:18:49] I'll just use a very simple example.

[00:18:52] I know how it feels to have lost my dad.

[00:18:57] I feel your grief.

[00:19:00] Because that is a common experience.

[00:19:02] I don't know whether that's an experience for Volker, yeah?

[00:19:06] But it is something that,

[00:19:08] so there's an authenticity to our relationship

[00:19:12] based on that fact.

[00:19:15] I've had all sorts of other experiences in my life.

[00:19:19] Some good, some bad.

[00:19:21] And that's true of a lot of the men

[00:19:24] because we are older men.

[00:19:26] We've just been around the block.

[00:19:28] And in some cases, our lived experience is significantly,

[00:19:35] it might be the same.

[00:19:37] It might be significantly different from the young man

[00:19:38] but we're just trying to say,

[00:19:40] we don't come, we are coming here

[00:19:42] to claim we've lived your life.

[00:19:46] I've lived mine and I will share

[00:19:49] what I think is relevant.

[00:19:51] And you could ask me questions

[00:19:52] that I will choose not to answer or to answer you.

[00:19:56] That's the way we build up trust

[00:19:58] is by being authentic with the young men that we work.

[00:20:02] I mean, going back to what,

[00:20:04] we're Volker's sort of question of,

[00:20:05] how do they kind of accept it?

[00:20:08] Or what is their reaction to it?

[00:20:10] And I guess my thought is, well,

[00:20:14] a lot of the time it probably is, wow,

[00:20:17] here's the first time in their lives

[00:20:19] that someone that is taking an interest in them,

[00:20:24] not because they have to or it's like,

[00:20:27] wow, someone's actually creating time for me.

[00:20:32] I remember working with a young man,

[00:20:35] it was on a weekend and he was,

[00:20:39] we were doing some work together as a group.

[00:20:42] He was telling his story or a story.

[00:20:46] I think the session was about 45 minutes or so.

[00:20:49] And we finished that, it was great.

[00:20:51] We moved on to the next thing

[00:20:53] and it was the top of my shoulder

[00:20:54] and there was this young man there

[00:20:58] with tears running down his face.

[00:21:00] And he said to me, nobody has ever listened to me

[00:21:05] for 45 minutes without interrupting.

[00:21:09] And there is something I think it's a quote on the video.

[00:21:13] There is no greater privilege

[00:21:16] than the ability to offer a man or someone else.

[00:21:19] I'll just listen to what you have to say.

[00:21:22] And it has an enormous impact.

[00:21:25] So that's what we're doing,

[00:21:26] we're trying to build up a level of trust and honesty.

[00:21:30] And when you hear, at the end of the whole process

[00:21:34] and we've done 10 weeks of preparation,

[00:21:36] the quest weekend,

[00:21:38] and then we've completed the mentoring afterwards,

[00:21:41] we celebrate their welcome into our community

[00:21:45] as an adult man through what we call the homecoming ceremony.

[00:21:49] So we use a series of contemporary rituals

[00:21:51] to mark these important steps.

[00:21:55] And during those occasions, you'll hear fantastic testimony

[00:21:59] from these young men about what it's meant to them

[00:22:01] and how they've, the connection they've built

[00:22:04] because very often society doesn't give a lot of opportunity

[00:22:08] for young men to sit down with the elders

[00:22:11] and listen to them.

[00:22:13] And we try to provide that.

[00:22:16] And going back to something that Volker asked me

[00:22:18] or one of your other distinctive features

[00:22:20] of our organization is when they completed their homecoming,

[00:22:25] that is only the beginning of their journey

[00:22:28] in our organization.

[00:22:30] They are members for life.

[00:22:32] We don't ever turn a man away from our circle.

[00:22:37] They can go to any cell.

[00:22:38] That's one day they may be resourced in a position

[00:22:43] where they can be mentoring other people.

[00:22:45] And indeed we have young men

[00:22:47] who are in leadership of our organization,

[00:22:50] who have joined us or were originally mentees

[00:22:55] and are now experienced mentors training other mentors.

[00:22:59] So because we are a volunteer organization,

[00:23:04] we are somebody saying when you come here,

[00:23:08] you'll never get turned away again.

[00:23:10] And that's a big difference is that there's a commitment.

[00:23:13] I had a call last night with a young man

[00:23:17] who wants to come back to circle.

[00:23:19] We haven't heard from him for over a year.

[00:23:22] But he's now in the right place to wanna come back

[00:23:25] or then you come back, it's great.

[00:23:27] So it's a lifelong membership, is everything?

[00:23:30] It's a lifelong commitment

[00:23:31] because even side it's a membership.

[00:23:33] It's a side, if I want great men in my community,

[00:23:38] that isn't time bound.

[00:23:39] Because I want them to be great men and great dads

[00:23:42] and great grandads.

[00:23:44] So that's the commitment.

[00:23:46] It's our community making.

[00:23:49] The reason I'm asking is so,

[00:23:51] I don't know if David even knows that or not.

[00:23:53] I'm a member of the German fraternity.

[00:23:54] And so very similar, you have a lifelong,

[00:23:58] I call it membership,

[00:23:59] but you have a lifelong commitment.

[00:24:01] So I still, if I say financially,

[00:24:03] but also from a mentorship coaching perspective,

[00:24:06] support the younger members.

[00:24:08] Whether they are alumni by now

[00:24:09] or whether they're still in their study days.

[00:24:13] And if I say it's similar,

[00:24:16] it's more around academics and personal development.

[00:24:20] That's what we focus on in our group.

[00:24:22] And others are about religion, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:24:25] So those are different groups.

[00:24:27] But it makes sense because if you can grow that

[00:24:30] within a community,

[00:24:31] you get a strong community overall.

[00:24:33] Right?

[00:24:34] I feel so.

[00:24:35] So that makes, to me it makes a lot more sense,

[00:24:38] but I don't know David,

[00:24:39] did I ever tell you that?

[00:24:41] You've mentioned about your fraternity a few times

[00:24:45] and I've just kind of created an image in my head

[00:24:47] of what that involves and what that means.

[00:24:50] Jumping and drinking.

[00:24:51] And basically.

[00:24:53] The dueling scar on the cheek.

[00:24:55] Yeah.

[00:24:55] Yeah.

[00:24:56] What happens?

[00:24:57] I have them on the side of my head actually.

[00:25:00] I don't have my...

[00:25:02] But you know, it's interesting you say that

[00:25:04] because there is that yearning in all of us

[00:25:07] to be in a group that welcomes us.

[00:25:12] And if that group is...

[00:25:14] And that yearning can lead to engagement with groups

[00:25:17] who provide enormous amounts of positivity

[00:25:20] and support and encouragement.

[00:25:23] But they could also lead to engagement

[00:25:25] with organisations or groups who take advantage of it.

[00:25:28] And that's one of the reasons why we want to work

[00:25:32] with young men who are at risk of the criminal justice system

[00:25:34] is we know that significant number of young men

[00:25:38] who have been involved in the care system,

[00:25:41] you know, come out of the care system

[00:25:42] that have been looked after children.

[00:25:45] They're extraordinarily vulnerable to exploitation

[00:25:48] by gangs and county lines

[00:25:51] and they find it...

[00:25:53] They may be challenging to find a job.

[00:25:56] If you find you can't...

[00:25:58] Don't have the dignity of an income

[00:25:59] that makes housing really difficult to get hold of,

[00:26:03] then you don't have an address.

[00:26:04] It just becomes this horrible, horrible spiral,

[00:26:07] a downward spiral and we can do what we can

[00:26:11] to support those young men who choose not to...

[00:26:15] They don't want to go down that path.

[00:26:17] I mean, that was sort of one of the other things that...

[00:26:20] Well, I can't remember if I mentioned it or not,

[00:26:22] but on the flip side of...

[00:26:25] That's the first time someone's taken that time to listen to me.

[00:26:29] But yeah, without it kind of being part of their job

[00:26:32] or whether it's relative is all...

[00:26:35] Or, you know, what's in it for them?

[00:26:38] Why are they trying to take advantage of me?

[00:26:41] So is this the first time...

[00:26:42] Well, when you got involved with a band of brothers,

[00:26:45] is this the first sort of time

[00:26:47] that you'd got involved with this kind of demographic,

[00:26:50] shall we say?

[00:26:52] This kind of demographic, you mean men?

[00:26:55] I mean, well, I'm just saying that, I guess.

[00:26:58] I mean, I'm making a judgment about...

[00:27:01] And I really respect it.

[00:27:03] Actually, we challenge language.

[00:27:05] Language is really...

[00:27:06] The words we choose are really important

[00:27:08] and they can have...

[00:27:09] They're loaded with meaning for other people

[00:27:11] that we don't always recognize.

[00:27:13] Yeah.

[00:27:13] And I really appreciate you, Zop.

[00:27:15] I sense you discovered what you're trying to say

[00:27:18] and exactly what you're trying to say.

[00:27:20] It wasn't...

[00:27:22] In my own personal experience,

[00:27:24] I've worked with young men in the past

[00:27:27] in a sort of professional capacity a little bit.

[00:27:29] I was a school teacher for a while.

[00:27:31] I got involved with youth groups.

[00:27:34] I have two lovely girls who are now young women.

[00:27:37] And so I didn't have a huge amount of in contact with boys

[00:27:43] and young men.

[00:27:43] So they were the large hairy things

[00:27:46] which appeared at my front door on occasions

[00:27:48] then ate the contents of my fridge.

[00:27:50] And I was, I think, suspicious of them.

[00:27:54] But, yeah, they're almost certain.

[00:27:57] I share this with her permission and endorsement.

[00:28:02] My daughter was sexually assaulted by a gang

[00:28:06] when she was very young.

[00:28:07] She was drunk at a party.

[00:28:10] And she eventually told me about that.

[00:28:15] And I wanted to...

[00:28:18] I couldn't find the perpetrators.

[00:28:20] I couldn't deal with them on an individual basis.

[00:28:26] But I made this...

[00:28:27] What can I do about this?

[00:28:28] What can I do to make sure this doesn't happen?

[00:28:32] And I can't guarantee that's not going to happen.

[00:28:35] But what I can do is do my best to make sure that

[00:28:38] there were...

[00:28:39] I do what I can to mean that young men

[00:28:44] in our community have, possibly,

[00:28:47] the opportunity to think more wisely

[00:28:50] about what their decisions are going to be.

[00:28:52] Because the impact of their decisions can be horrific.

[00:28:56] Those decisions were made by a group of boys,

[00:29:00] and I call them boys because I don't...

[00:29:02] They were very easy to picture the fact

[00:29:05] that they were egging each other on

[00:29:08] and all sorts of things.

[00:29:09] The damage they did was horrific.

[00:29:12] So I wanted to address that.

[00:29:15] And that was my motivation for joining a band of brothers.

[00:29:18] And we all come with different motivations

[00:29:20] and different experience.

[00:29:23] Man Up, Man Down is sponsored by Well-Doing.

[00:29:25] There's someone who has seen a counsellor

[00:29:27] for a number of years, I think their approach is great.

[00:29:29] They want you to find the mental health professional

[00:29:31] who is right for you.

[00:29:33] You can fill to your search to highlight therapists

[00:29:35] with expertise where you need it,

[00:29:36] or you can pay to use their personalised matching service.

[00:29:40] The people who run Well-Doing are experts

[00:29:42] in mental wellbeing,

[00:29:43] and they also have loads of posts and interviews

[00:29:45] to keep your mental health in good shape.

[00:29:47] Take a look at WellDoing.org.

[00:29:51] Was that the immediate kind of reaction,

[00:29:55] or did it take a couple of years

[00:29:58] to kind of think,

[00:30:00] well, this is how I can make a difference all?

[00:30:04] It was for me...

[00:30:06] I can only talk about my personal story.

[00:30:10] For me, it was a fairly immediate reaction,

[00:30:15] but I learned something in a band of brothers

[00:30:17] which I didn't expect.

[00:30:19] Because one thing we haven't touched on as well

[00:30:21] about our organisation is we also recruit, train,

[00:30:25] support and provide mentoring

[00:30:28] to a whole number of volunteer mentors.

[00:30:31] Men from our community who prepare to step out and say,

[00:30:35] I want to make a difference.

[00:30:37] And the way in which we talked a little bit

[00:30:40] earlier about the importance of a mental being authentic

[00:30:45] to a young man,

[00:30:48] that's the way you bridge and build trust.

[00:30:50] And I came in to our organisation

[00:30:54] with a very strong motivation.

[00:30:56] I had some experience working in mentoring and counselling

[00:31:01] and supporting young people.

[00:31:02] And I'd been a coach in my professional life

[00:31:05] and I felt I was extraordinarily well-equipped

[00:31:09] to deal with this and deliver.

[00:31:13] What I learned in our process,

[00:31:15] because when we train and develop and support our mentors,

[00:31:19] we actually run them through exactly the same programme

[00:31:22] as we do for the young men.

[00:31:24] Because that's going to be a common experience

[00:31:27] they can tap into as they engage

[00:31:29] and work with mentors later on.

[00:31:31] But during that process,

[00:31:33] I recognised there were things that in my past

[00:31:36] that I had not dealt with,

[00:31:38] that I needed to resolve.

[00:31:40] And one of those was my issues with anger.

[00:31:44] And I was so extraordinarily angry

[00:31:48] and not in control of that

[00:31:50] that my daughter was afraid to tell me

[00:31:54] that she'd been assaulted.

[00:31:56] And so she kept that from me and from her mum the full year.

[00:32:02] I mean, well thank you for sharing that.

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:07] I can't imagine.

[00:32:08] I mean, and well, in some ways I can, I guess,

[00:32:11] which is why I sort of asked was that you're immediate.

[00:32:15] You know, because, yeah, I guess, you know,

[00:32:19] the least an approach would be my first thought.

[00:32:22] And I guess I can relate to the fact

[00:32:25] that my daughter probably has seen me get angry enough

[00:32:30] to think I shouldn't tell that.

[00:32:33] And I wouldn't wish that on you, David,

[00:32:36] or any other dad.

[00:32:38] It was horrible.

[00:32:42] But it also, in dealing with my own anger,

[00:32:47] has put me in a much better position now

[00:32:50] to recognise the anger in a young man.

[00:32:53] And that's a common link.

[00:32:56] You know, I don't have all...

[00:32:58] That's my lived experience.

[00:33:01] And it's different from theirs.

[00:33:03] But it's one which I've spent quite a bit of time

[00:33:06] working with my peers in a band of brothers

[00:33:10] to address and recognise and talk about.

[00:33:12] We describe it as doing our own work

[00:33:15] because we have to do that in order to be the authentic person

[00:33:20] who supports a young man.

[00:33:22] This isn't an academic exercise.

[00:33:24] You can't train someone to be a mentor.

[00:33:28] You have to live to be a mentor.

[00:33:30] And that's part of what we do.

[00:33:33] And I stand alongside lots of other men

[00:33:37] from our community around Oxford.

[00:33:39] And indeed, there are communities in Brighton and Hastings

[00:33:43] and Falmouth and Bristol and Manchester

[00:33:46] who also have a hugely varied life experience.

[00:33:51] We bring that to bear in common

[00:33:53] to support these young men.

[00:33:54] So collectively, there's probably very little

[00:33:58] that a young man would present to us

[00:34:00] that we can't turn around and say,

[00:34:01] actually, you know what?

[00:34:03] I think there's a guy who might share that experience

[00:34:06] who we can lean into and get support from.

[00:34:10] So have you come up with a situation where you've...

[00:34:15] You know, you're dealing with lads

[00:34:18] that have done the same thing that happened to your daughter?

[00:34:23] Yes, I have.

[00:34:25] Wow.

[00:34:27] Well, I have to take my hat off to you for being a good man.

[00:34:33] Well, yeah, and it's...

[00:34:34] Yeah, I'm not going to condone it.

[00:34:37] I mean, I don't feel like to do...

[00:34:38] It is a challenge because sometimes

[00:34:41] you will be faced with things that you...

[00:34:45] Yeah.

[00:34:47] Would otherwise...

[00:34:49] You know, maybe I would have just been on a rage beforehand.

[00:34:55] Try and make things a little bit more positive.

[00:34:58] I mean, are there aspects that have sort of surprised you

[00:35:05] with these people, with these boys that you're dealing with

[00:35:09] that has completely changed your kind of...

[00:35:14] I mean, I think what you talk about is, well,

[00:35:18] it's the Atticus Finch quote,

[00:35:20] you can't judge a man till you've walked a mile in your shoes

[00:35:23] and it's sort of...

[00:35:28] It's easy to judge someone

[00:35:30] if you don't know the circumstances that they've lived in.

[00:35:34] So, you know, it's kind of that thing of,

[00:35:37] I don't think anyone goes out intentionally thinking,

[00:35:40] I want to cause pain and suffering.

[00:35:43] You know, my God philosophy is,

[00:35:46] it's always defense mechanism.

[00:35:48] Don't judge anyone till you know their story, really.

[00:35:51] But yes, I mean, have there been sort of things where you're like?

[00:35:56] I mean, I think one of the things that...

[00:36:00] One of the things that continues to motivate me,

[00:36:02] and this can be a very challenging thing to...

[00:36:08] A very challenging offer because it's...

[00:36:10] There's no requirement for the young man to turn up.

[00:36:14] I've sat and waited on many, many occasions

[00:36:18] for a guy to turn up for an appointment that he made

[00:36:21] to meet with me and he hasn't turned up.

[00:36:25] Now, I can make all sorts of assumptions as well

[00:36:28] why he hasn't turned up.

[00:36:30] But I made it correct to be there for an hour.

[00:36:32] So I might as well just be there for an hour

[00:36:33] and I'll read a book.

[00:36:35] That could be really frustrating and really hard

[00:36:37] but it might also be that he is equally nervous.

[00:36:41] He's equally scared.

[00:36:42] He doesn't know how to make that step.

[00:36:44] He doesn't trust me.

[00:36:47] He's suspicious.

[00:36:48] All sorts of really good reasons.

[00:36:49] He may have lots and lots of really, really good reasons

[00:36:52] why he isn't there either.

[00:36:53] And you deal with that.

[00:36:56] But I took out, I'll share a story.

[00:36:58] I work with the young man.

[00:36:59] We had, I think it was six to eight appointments.

[00:37:06] He'd be to one and he didn't turn up for the next.

[00:37:08] It was just a mess and eventually there was no contact

[00:37:12] and tried to make contact.

[00:37:15] Won't get through and you said, okay, frustrating.

[00:37:20] We'll move on to the next.

[00:37:22] Nine months later, Christmas morning, phone rings

[00:37:28] and he calls and says,

[00:37:30] I just want to wish you and your family

[00:37:31] a very happy Christmas.

[00:37:35] Where did that come from?

[00:37:37] Yeah, that joy you feel is phenomenal.

[00:37:43] And it was that and now we've reestablished contact.

[00:37:48] We've now been in contact with,

[00:37:50] are we getting on three years?

[00:37:52] Every now and then they get a call.

[00:37:54] Hiya, Bernie.

[00:37:56] How you doing?

[00:37:57] What's okay?

[00:37:58] What are you up to?

[00:37:59] This is what I'm up to.

[00:38:00] I need a chat or whatever I might be.

[00:38:02] That's the thing that most surprises me is that

[00:38:07] we work in a fairly fast-paced society

[00:38:11] and a lot of us are looking for relatively

[00:38:15] instant gratification, the young man and us and me.

[00:38:21] But actually that does,

[00:38:22] I think one of the things I've learned in this process

[00:38:25] is it can take more time than you think

[00:38:30] and sometimes it takes less time than you think

[00:38:33] but it generally doesn't take the time that you think

[00:38:36] for something to be resolved and moved forward.

[00:38:39] Yeah, for me that's one of the things

[00:38:40] that I've learned though, the great pieces of learning

[00:38:42] and also one of the great rewards.

[00:38:45] There's always these surprises.

[00:38:49] I mean I've got hundreds more questions.

[00:38:53] Well, we're in some other time.

[00:38:57] We've only got a few minutes left.

[00:38:59] I mean, so I think you sort of made

[00:39:02] there's a couple of points.

[00:39:04] Do they have like a Bernie phone number

[00:39:07] or do they have like your number?

[00:39:10] Well, you know, is there like a band of brothers

[00:39:12] number that they ring?

[00:39:14] No, we normally establish a personal relationship

[00:39:18] with the young man.

[00:39:19] I mean if the young man chooses not to engage with us then

[00:39:24] then we delete those records later on.

[00:39:29] But generally we work with that.

[00:39:32] You know, and the other thing is

[00:39:37] as an older man, the ways in which I work

[00:39:41] communicate aren't necessarily the ones

[00:39:43] that work for young people.

[00:39:44] So we get very, very, you get much better

[00:39:48] at what's happened to another social media platforms

[00:39:53] as mechanisms to connect.

[00:39:55] But what we're trying to do is we're using those

[00:39:57] just to create circumstances in which we can have

[00:40:00] a face-to-face conversation.

[00:40:02] That's what we're trying to do.

[00:40:05] That I can sort of still remember how to do pretty well.

[00:40:09] To you kind of, well, A, how do you kind of

[00:40:13] almost separate yourself emotionally?

[00:40:16] And I mean, is it the onus always on them

[00:40:19] to be in contact with you

[00:40:20] rather than you being in contact with them?

[00:40:24] So what we're trying to establish is that

[00:40:27] this is his mentoring journey

[00:40:30] and he's engaged with it and we're there to support him.

[00:40:34] So we're holding him to the commitment.

[00:40:38] Where are we going to meet?

[00:40:39] We're going to meet next Thursday at this coffee shop.

[00:40:43] Okay, I'll be there.

[00:40:46] I'm going to make you a commitment.

[00:40:47] I will be there.

[00:40:48] I'll show you and I want you to make the same commitment

[00:40:51] and we meet up and he may or may not

[00:40:54] just be make the next meeting next next meeting.

[00:40:56] So generally we're the communication is taking place

[00:41:00] at the meetings.

[00:41:01] We're not chasing them.

[00:41:03] If I don't hear from him,

[00:41:04] I might chase following him up with a phone call.

[00:41:07] And one of the things I'll say to him

[00:41:08] right at the beginning of the mentoring relationship

[00:41:10] is I'm not going to chase you.

[00:41:12] Yeah, this is I will call.

[00:41:14] I will, I chase you.

[00:41:16] If I'm going to be late,

[00:41:17] I will call you and tell you I'm going to be late.

[00:41:19] Could try not to be, but that could happen.

[00:41:22] Or I can't be there because I'm unwell

[00:41:24] or I've got a piece of work on.

[00:41:26] We are volunteers and we're not available all the time.

[00:41:31] So we're trying to establish those boundaries

[00:41:35] and those agreements that will be with each other.

[00:41:41] I mean, do you have any more questions, Volker?

[00:41:44] To be honest, I had a few.

[00:41:45] I didn't get a word in the door again.

[00:41:47] Come on.

[00:41:48] I'll ask some more questions.

[00:41:50] I'll put some of this stuff out and put yours back here again.

[00:41:53] But no, you know, it is,

[00:41:55] you know, what David asked as well, right?

[00:41:57] How do you support each other?

[00:41:58] How do you deal with your own mental health?

[00:41:59] Right.

[00:42:00] All right.

[00:42:01] That's a good question.

[00:42:02] So I was kind of like what what David kind of, I think was

[00:42:04] a little bit of a second.

[00:42:06] No, no, no, that guy tried to think.

[00:42:07] So one week we meet in circle once a week.

[00:42:11] Right.

[00:42:11] So we meet up.

[00:42:13] There's no compulsion to go to somewhere.

[00:42:15] You're encouraged to go.

[00:42:16] I did the circle.

[00:42:17] We talk about our journey at our mentoring.

[00:42:21] I go to mentoring supervision once every once a week,

[00:42:26] once in a couple of weeks.

[00:42:27] So if you're mentoring, you're required to to log your call

[00:42:32] to just to make sure that it was a record of we've had this meeting

[00:42:36] and you're required to go to supervision and supervision is

[00:42:40] is not about telling you how to be a mentor.

[00:42:44] It's about supporting you to be the best mentor you can be.

[00:42:48] And often you learn that by listening to other mentors.

[00:42:51] And having that shared frustration of the young man didn't turn up.

[00:42:56] What do I do?

[00:42:57] Well, you it's his decision.

[00:43:00] Actually by deciding not to come, he's made a decision.

[00:43:05] Isn't that a good thing?

[00:43:07] Now, wasn't the best decision he could make?

[00:43:10] Don't know.

[00:43:11] But he chose to make a decision not to come.

[00:43:14] And actually saying to someone, you know,

[00:43:16] Oh, I couldn't be bothered.

[00:43:18] Okay.

[00:43:19] That's the reason why you couldn't be here.

[00:43:22] So why can't you be bothered?

[00:43:25] That's an interesting far one question.

[00:43:26] So mentoring supervision as well.

[00:43:28] Things we also have within each circle.

[00:43:30] We have a someone who's responsible safeguarding.

[00:43:33] You have a national organization that has a safeguarding responsibility

[00:43:38] and duty of care.

[00:43:39] We do training in our circles and weekends for staff.

[00:43:45] There's a leadership development program within a better form.

[00:43:49] And because the other half of our program,

[00:43:51] not really talked about that very much is we also provide

[00:43:56] a fantastic opportunity for men with experience

[00:44:00] to be in service to their community.

[00:44:04] We don't, we do support young men,

[00:44:06] but we also help to build community by providing a mechanism for

[00:44:12] you and me and others to go and contribute

[00:44:15] and that's very important.

[00:44:16] So we do some induction and training

[00:44:20] and development of those people as well.

[00:44:23] And that's part of the support structure

[00:44:25] that means that I don't have to carry this on my own.

[00:44:29] I have support all the time for that.

[00:44:33] I think that's super important, right?

[00:44:35] Yeah.

[00:44:35] It's extraordinary important.

[00:44:37] The work you do does require, you know,

[00:44:42] so it helps and then the support.

[00:44:44] And the other thing is by seeking and gaining

[00:44:47] and getting support from other men,

[00:44:50] I might actually be a great example to the young man.

[00:44:53] Yeah.

[00:44:53] I don't do this on my own.

[00:44:55] I can't do this on my own.

[00:44:57] I go for support.

[00:44:58] I go for help.

[00:45:00] I help other men.

[00:45:02] I'm in a community of people who are supporting me

[00:45:05] in order to deliver this

[00:45:07] and you don't have to do this on your own either.

[00:45:11] You may get your support from us,

[00:45:13] but you can get your support from friends,

[00:45:16] family, peers, teachers, coaches, whatever else it might be.

[00:45:20] You don't have to do this on your own.

[00:45:22] And giving a young man a mission to go and get help

[00:45:28] is very empowering.

[00:45:30] I mean, as I say, I've been looking forward

[00:45:33] to this episode for a while.

[00:45:36] But yeah, I mean, I've been blown away by,

[00:45:38] well, by rope and the spurny.

[00:45:41] You know, thanks for being so vulnerable yourself.

[00:45:45] But yeah, I mean, well, I guess the question is,

[00:45:49] so if I want to get involved with a band of brothers,

[00:45:52] how do I get involved?

[00:45:53] So the first thing I'd like to do is go to bandofbrothers.org,

[00:45:58] which is our website.

[00:46:00] You just put a band of brothers in there with all one word.

[00:46:03] Otherwise you get a quite interesting series

[00:46:06] about text based on the war.

[00:46:09] A band of brothers, all one word

[00:46:10] and on that, on the front pages, it's a four minute video

[00:46:13] that will either tell you that you're curious or not.

[00:46:17] There's also a link there that will contact your local circle

[00:46:20] and there are 14 around the country

[00:46:22] or just contact the website

[00:46:23] so you're interested in our organization.

[00:46:26] And why are you interested?

[00:46:27] Are you interested because you want to be a mentor

[00:46:31] or are you interested because you know a young man

[00:46:34] who might benefit from your support?

[00:46:37] That's it.

[00:46:38] Then we'll either give you a call or get in contact

[00:46:41] and answer your questions, but we welcome...

[00:46:44] We can only offer great mentoring

[00:46:46] if we've got great mentors to do it.

[00:46:49] And they're as important as reaching out

[00:46:55] and being introduced to young men who can get us

[00:46:58] who might benefit from our support if they opt into it.

[00:47:02] Thanks for everything you do, Birdie.

[00:47:04] Thanks for sharing your story.

[00:47:06] Thanks very much.

[00:47:07] Thank you.

[00:47:12] Thanks for listening to this week's episode.

[00:47:14] Feel free to reach out to Folker or David via our website

[00:47:17] www.manupdown.com

[00:47:20] or podcast at manupdown.com

[00:47:22] with any feedback

[00:47:23] or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future.

[00:47:27] Hear you again soon.