Lions Barber Collective

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Man Up Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often

[00:00:16] too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:20] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com.

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:35] So welcome to another episode of Man Up Man Down.

[00:00:38] Today we welcome Stuart Wallace.

[00:00:41] So Stuart is an Associate Director of Maze, a global construction and consultancy company,

[00:00:46] shaping the future of the world we live and work in.

[00:00:49] Since 2022, Stuart has been the construction patron for the Lions Barber Collective,

[00:00:55] providing support to the LBC when working with companies across the construction sector

[00:00:59] to provide safe spaces via Lions pop-up barbershops.

[00:01:04] We go into all that in detail, so I'm kind of just reading it out.

[00:01:07] So the figures for men's suicide and construction are horrifying, with two men a working day

[00:01:13] dying from suicide in the construction sector alone.

[00:01:16] And Stuart is striving with the LBC to push these figures down.

[00:01:21] So there's a lot in there and there were four lines I read out.

[00:01:25] Stuart, first of all, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:27] Thank you very much.

[00:01:29] Thanks for having me on the show.

[00:01:31] So when we're talking LBC, we're obviously talking about the Lions Barber Collective.

[00:01:35] So not that anyone thinks we are now on the radio, we're only doing podcasts, right?

[00:01:41] So I had to bring that up.

[00:01:42] No, absolutely.

[00:01:44] We are not part of the global media empire.

[00:01:49] Not yet, right?

[00:01:50] Neither are we.

[00:01:51] We're still waiting for Global to call us and go like, why don't you do the

[00:01:56] show for Global?

[00:01:57] Anyway, let's talk about you.

[00:02:00] Let's talk about MACE and let's talk about the great work you do with LBC, the Lions

[00:02:04] Barber Collective.

[00:02:05] Yeah, so MACE are a global construction and consultancy company.

[00:02:11] We work around the globe on projects such as the Shard.

[00:02:16] We built hotels in the Middle East, worked across Europe, currently working on projects

[00:02:22] such as HS2.

[00:02:23] HS2, doing a lot of work with there.

[00:02:26] Heathrow Airport, we've been there for over 30 years as part of the major construction

[00:02:32] work that is ongoing for such a vast project.

[00:02:38] The real vision and mission of MACE, we say we redefine the boundaries of ambition

[00:02:46] That can mean to you whatever you want it to mean.

[00:02:50] In the field of employee relations, which is my industrial relations, my specialism,

[00:02:57] it's about looking after the people that we work with every day.

[00:03:00] So all elements of health, safety and wellbeing.

[00:03:05] One thing that has become a particular passion of mine is talking about mental health and

[00:03:12] seeing that people have the opportunity to talk.

[00:03:15] So we make a big part of our inductions when people come to our project, regardless

[00:03:20] of what role they're going to play to deliver in our projects.

[00:03:25] We're here as colleagues, we want to go home safe and well every day, at least

[00:03:30] as well physically and mentally as when you arrive on the project.

[00:03:35] So always think about how I want to be treated at work, the facilities that I've

[00:03:39] got at work.

[00:03:41] And I've found work a great solace with some things happening in your private life,

[00:03:47] such as my wife has not been well the last couple of years.

[00:03:53] I'm sure she wouldn't mind me talking about that.

[00:03:56] She got diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years ago.

[00:03:59] Sorry to hear that.

[00:04:01] The ability for me to talk to my colleagues at work and whether it was someone who

[00:04:09] worked directly for MACE or subcontractors on the project of all kinds and types, they

[00:04:16] be able to sit and have a coffee with someone and say, I'm having a tough day today.

[00:04:20] I had to tell my kids about the mum and support them and just having people listen

[00:04:25] was great.

[00:04:26] And I think for the macho industry that construction used to have and still to

[00:04:33] lesser extent has is not as prominent.

[00:04:38] You know, people will talk, people open up more and that's I think a success in

[00:04:42] itself that you can go onto a site and people will talk about feelings, stress

[00:04:47] and psychological issues that they may have and want to help each other.

[00:04:55] And it's something I've wanted to do.

[00:04:57] And I saw a pop-up barbershop on LinkedIn on another MACE site, a smaller MACE

[00:05:04] project.

[00:05:05] I thought, you know what?

[00:05:06] I need that on our project.

[00:05:08] I want to do this for our workforce.

[00:05:11] And that's where it was born from when I got in touch with Tom Chapman,

[00:05:15] who's the chairman of the Lives barbers and set up a meeting and it went

[00:05:20] from there really.

[00:05:21] So it's been an interesting, absolute joyful journey.

[00:05:26] You've got to take some joy out of providing these opportunities for our

[00:05:32] colleagues at work.

[00:05:34] And that's been it.

[00:05:35] And they've become friends for life as well, you know, and we talk to

[00:05:40] each other about our own trials and tribulations each day, but also what

[00:05:46] we can do to make the industry and the world a better place.

[00:05:49] You know, their core function is about preventing male suicide.

[00:05:55] That is their mission.

[00:05:58] Doesn't mean they won't do hair for and talk to anyone.

[00:06:02] They absolutely will.

[00:06:03] You know, male, female, people of all backgrounds.

[00:06:07] You know, they have specialists in technical specialists that can do

[00:06:12] Afro, for example.

[00:06:14] So it's really good.

[00:06:15] Really great.

[00:06:17] I love it.

[00:06:17] Second passion for me.

[00:06:20] So what are the Lion Barbers Collective exactly?

[00:06:24] So they just provide, as if they don't provide haircuts, right?

[00:06:29] Do they?

[00:06:30] No, they do actually.

[00:06:31] So if you go back to Tong, he experienced a close friend of his

[00:06:38] died from suicide in mid-20s, mid-teens, 20-teens.

[00:06:45] And he went to a funeral and he turned around and thought, wow,

[00:06:48] there's a lot of people here affected by this issue.

[00:06:51] I want to do something.

[00:06:52] I want to make a difference.

[00:06:54] So he started off with a lion's book for haircuts.

[00:06:58] You know, you go to barbers or hairdressers and you might see a

[00:07:01] book of potential haircuts long before you just Googled nice haircuts.

[00:07:07] And he was going to sell the book.

[00:07:09] And the reason the lions is he had barbers from England, Wales,

[00:07:13] Scotland and Ireland.

[00:07:15] And so a bit like Lion's Rugby is the Lion's Barber Collective.

[00:07:19] And any money raised, he was going to give to a charity such as

[00:07:22] Samaritans or a suicide prevention or help charity.

[00:07:28] And then he thought, actually we can do more for this.

[00:07:30] I want to do more.

[00:07:32] You know, he's a hairdresser's barber working in a shop.

[00:07:35] People tell me about their issues when they're sitting in the chair.

[00:07:39] I'd like to learn to do more.

[00:07:41] So he put himself through a mental health first aid course.

[00:07:44] Quickly realized it's difficult for a barber or hairdresser who's

[00:07:48] self-employed to do three or four days in a training session.

[00:07:52] Where you got the cost of the training, lost earnings.

[00:07:55] So he developed something called Barber Talk Lite, which trains barbers

[00:08:01] or hairdressers or beauticians in having those conversations with

[00:08:05] people sat in their chair and did a lot of research.

[00:08:09] I recommend on a movie length documentary about the 1.7 million

[00:08:17] pound haircut because they believe that all the evidence shows each

[00:08:22] suicide costs the economy 1.7 million, which always feels difficult

[00:08:30] talking about money associated with it.

[00:08:32] But a fact is the economy loses that sort of cost.

[00:08:37] So in the documentary you see him meet Dr.

[00:08:41] Akin who does that research, but also talks about people

[00:08:45] opening up with physical contact.

[00:08:48] And it's difficult on a construction site to have physical contact

[00:08:53] without getting in trouble, right?

[00:08:55] Unless you come up with something like having a haircut.

[00:09:00] So they provide pop-up barbershops on sites with trained

[00:09:05] professional barbers who are volunteers.

[00:09:08] They give up a day of their time.

[00:09:10] I think a few times a year they come along and provide half an hour

[00:09:15] slots for people to come along, book in or walk up, have a haircut

[00:09:21] and have a conversation.

[00:09:23] And I was skeptical at first about whether it would work because

[00:09:27] I thought a meter or so between each chair will people open up?

[00:09:32] Will they have a conversation?

[00:09:34] Wow.

[00:09:35] What on the day we did it, I think 55 haircuts done by five

[00:09:41] barbers on a project.

[00:09:44] People was coming in going, I'm not sure I can do this or I haven't

[00:09:49] had my hair cut for ages because I work six days a week.

[00:09:52] And when I get home, I got to clean my clothes, got to see my wife

[00:09:56] and family, then a barber's not open on a Sunday.

[00:09:59] So this is amazing Stu.

[00:10:01] And they would sit down and then come out of it.

[00:10:03] And you could see people lifted like this.

[00:10:09] It's like a world had been lifted off their shoulders from having

[00:10:11] a short conversation and a haircut, a good haircut as well.

[00:10:14] By the way, they are all excellent.

[00:10:17] And people coming over and giving me a hug.

[00:10:20] Right.

[00:10:20] And said, thank you so much for doing this.

[00:10:22] This is amazing.

[00:10:24] And the lift in morale on the project at Houston, this was

[00:10:30] HS2 Houston, was just, you could feel it.

[00:10:35] You know, when people ask you, why'd you do this?

[00:10:38] Why, what are we going to get out?

[00:10:40] Right.

[00:10:41] Was it a fair question?

[00:10:43] Cause we, you, you're spending quite a bit of cash as the donation to the charity.

[00:10:49] What, what is it we get out when you're there, you can feel it.

[00:10:54] Right.

[00:10:55] And I'm quite emotional.

[00:10:57] I had to go and have a little one, wander around after about three hours of

[00:11:02] seeing people going in and out, people talking to me and saying, you know,

[00:11:05] you know, this has made a massive positive impact on my week.

[00:11:09] I know the conversations remain confidential and, you know, we don't

[00:11:13] know who says what or who's got an issue in the subjects can range from

[00:11:18] people who generally just want a haircut.

[00:11:20] So they might sit down and talk about Jürgen Klopp leaving Liverpool at

[00:11:24] the end of the season or, you know, and if they're a Liverpool

[00:11:27] fan that might stress them out through to, you know, weird one person

[00:11:34] didn't want to have a haircut and kept coming in to tell us he

[00:11:36] didn't want to have a haircut.

[00:11:38] He only goes to a hairdresser's, you know, and he's, you know, bar

[00:11:41] bizarre, don't look after my luscious hair.

[00:11:44] And then at the end of the fifth time he came in, Tom said, listen,

[00:11:49] you can have a haircut if you want.

[00:11:50] You just sit down and have a head massage if you want.

[00:11:53] I ain't gone.

[00:11:54] He meant health issues.

[00:11:56] Finally sat down in the chair and he told us about his first marriage

[00:12:00] failing and then not being a very good dad because he worked away a lot

[00:12:03] and that stressed him out.

[00:12:05] And he's got remarried and more kids were taking his career

[00:12:11] incredibly seriously now.

[00:12:12] And he wanted to be a better person and a, a better employee,

[00:12:17] but a husband, better father, not enough to kill a world of

[00:12:21] better people.

[00:12:22] You know, and it was just great to see this tough, funny, you

[00:12:27] know, geezer that was coming in actually come out at the end

[00:12:31] saying thanks to you.

[00:12:32] That was brilliant.

[00:12:34] So we've done it a few times.

[00:12:35] I've spoken to other companies.

[00:12:37] So when the barbers go to talk to other construction companies, they'll

[00:12:40] ask me to come along as a reference if you like, or as a cheerleader

[00:12:46] as to why it's worthwhile.

[00:12:48] And that's been a great success.

[00:12:51] I'm incredibly proud of what they do and to be part of it.

[00:12:55] I mean that is, you know, that well there's got, there's quite

[00:12:59] a few sort of incredible things you've said there.

[00:13:01] I mean, I did actually had a look at the website and saw Tom's Ted

[00:13:05] talk that he did.

[00:13:07] And I mean, bearing in mind, I mean, this, this might sound like

[00:13:12] a very strange comment, but you know, we talk about suicide and the

[00:13:18] male rate of suicide on this podcast a lot and in some ways,

[00:13:23] you know, it could become, you can become almost desensitized to it.

[00:13:28] And watching like Tom's Tedx talk, I mean, it was, it was a good sort

[00:13:34] of example of public speaking because he, you know, sort of made a few

[00:13:37] jokes at the start and got the audience on side, but you know,

[00:13:41] sort of by the end of it, everyone was definitely silent.

[00:13:45] And, you know, as I say, I'm sort of, I've watched a lot of Ted

[00:13:48] talks, you know, particularly around male mental health and, and

[00:13:53] yeah, I was just sort of sitting here thinking, wow, you know, that,

[00:13:56] that was sort of, well, a powerful talk and a powerful mission.

[00:14:01] So yeah, I just, just wanted to say that, that, you know, that,

[00:14:04] that I was quite blown away by that.

[00:14:06] Um,

[00:14:06] It's incredible.

[00:14:08] That stuff.

[00:14:09] Yeah.

[00:14:10] I mean, so I guess one of my sort of questions is, you know,

[00:14:14] why do you think construction?

[00:14:16] Because I think, you know, we might've mentioned it, but it,

[00:14:20] it's an, isn't it, is it the got the industry that has the

[00:14:24] highest suicide rate or is it?

[00:14:26] I believe is, yeah.

[00:14:28] I think there's some industries would say it was such as emergency

[00:14:32] services, fire, fire fighters, several high rate as well.

[00:14:36] Well, it is very high, you know, in, you know, the rate of

[00:14:41] may male to female suicide is three to one naturally in

[00:14:46] construction, that goes three times more, you know, it's nine to one.

[00:14:50] And just shocking.

[00:14:53] Right.

[00:14:54] And it's six.

[00:14:55] So just for it in context, in construction, in the sixties,

[00:15:02] hundreds, five, six, 700 people a year were killed at work through incidents.

[00:15:09] Though the health and safety of worker came in 1974 and since then

[00:15:15] a steady decline in deaths at work.

[00:15:18] One is too many, right?

[00:15:20] But we're down to about 30, 30 to 35 a year from six, 700.

[00:15:26] And the effort's gone in massively.

[00:15:27] And now we're looking at physical health as well.

[00:15:30] Things like asbestosis or dust, dust mitigation by a different

[00:15:35] concrete and all that stuff.

[00:15:37] And brilliant.

[00:15:40] It's only now we're looking at suicide, mental health issues.

[00:15:46] And which is all fantastic stuff that we need to do.

[00:15:52] And I talk about mental health for a status at work and about having

[00:15:56] a conversation as a line manager.

[00:15:59] And what I find or found across the sector, across all sectors, in

[00:16:05] fact, is we say, here's an app.

[00:16:09] Here's a phone line.

[00:16:10] You know, here's a resource for you to go to, which I'm not belittling

[00:16:16] any of that, but I want to make it even easier for people to make that

[00:16:23] connection with someone in front of them.

[00:16:27] And sitting in front of a barber, you've never met before in your

[00:16:31] life, but they're great, aren't they?

[00:16:32] Right.

[00:16:32] You know, the whole going into a barber's summit for the weekend.

[00:16:37] So, you know, conversation.

[00:16:40] Well, it is full-month counsellor here.

[00:16:43] Hello, it's Volker here.

[00:16:45] I hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:16:48] You might not realise that I have been coaching for almost a decade

[00:16:52] through both third parties and private clients.

[00:16:55] During that time, I've worked with brands such as General Electric,

[00:16:59] Imperial Brands, DHL and Pepsi.

[00:17:03] However, this year I'm putting a big emphasis on growing my

[00:17:06] private coaching practice, improving lives of middle-aged men

[00:17:10] in leadership positions.

[00:17:12] So if you hit mid-life transition point and you might be a bit stuck

[00:17:16] or looking to improve your work-life balance, your career or productivity,

[00:17:21] you want to build a new habit, or you just want to become a

[00:17:24] better version of yourself, please hit me up.

[00:17:28] You can reach me on volker.natos.

[00:17:31] That's volker at obnat.us or LinkedIn, whatever is easiest.

[00:17:39] Thanks.

[00:17:40] And now back to the episode.

[00:17:44] Well, I think also though, you know, it is sort of for some men,

[00:17:47] it probably is the only hour or half an hour that they get

[00:17:52] that is purely just about them.

[00:17:54] Yeah.

[00:17:55] And I think just to go back to your question about why construction

[00:18:00] has this high rate of suicide, there is no single cause, I don't believe.

[00:18:10] But there are many.

[00:18:11] So it could be sort of that peripatetic nature of the work where you

[00:18:16] work, move from place to place to place.

[00:18:18] Might be working from home, loneliness, stress.

[00:18:24] It can be quite a casual industry.

[00:18:25] By that I mean, you've got a month, two months, three months,

[00:18:29] a week on a project and then you move onto the next one.

[00:18:33] You've got to try and find the next job.

[00:18:35] There might be a shortage of work.

[00:18:38] It could be being away from your family, your issues at home, money

[00:18:44] worries, it could be people at work that cause you an issue.

[00:18:47] You know, it is still a tough industry.

[00:18:49] You're working outside because you haven't built what you're building yet.

[00:18:53] Yeah.

[00:18:53] I was on a job on Wednesday, you know, climbing 15 stories.

[00:18:59] There are 15 sets of stairs up to the top floor to see the

[00:19:03] workforce on the top and it's windy and it's cold.

[00:19:07] And you do all you can to make the facilities great, the canteen great,

[00:19:11] put toilets or wherever people can get it.

[00:19:14] But still it's hard work and all these things play into affecting

[00:19:21] your mind and your mental health.

[00:19:25] So I would also make that better.

[00:19:26] And we strive to do that, right?

[00:19:28] Because I'm a decent person.

[00:19:30] I'm everyone who works for Mace, want people to be well.

[00:19:33] So we try our best, but you can't, you can't counter every issue that people have.

[00:19:40] And we talked, you know, we put on financial wellbeing sessions for

[00:19:45] people to come to, to our projects.

[00:19:48] Not everyone will come along.

[00:19:49] No one has got financial issues will come along.

[00:19:52] You have labor from other countries that come and work in the UK.

[00:19:57] Still, despite Brexit, you know, we have a, we won't go into whether

[00:20:03] that's good or bad.

[00:20:04] Yeah, let's not start politics now.

[00:20:08] No, it was a German in the room.

[00:20:11] But it has undoubtedly made it harder for people to come and work in the UK.

[00:20:16] So there's that stress and people being away from their families and

[00:20:19] their home for months, right?

[00:20:22] And then go back for a short period and then come back and earn some money.

[00:20:26] It's hard.

[00:20:28] So it's a tough game to be in.

[00:20:31] Not games, not the right word, but it's a tough industry to be in.

[00:20:34] And we recognize that and we've got to do something to help people.

[00:20:39] You can't, you can't fix everyone's problem.

[00:20:42] I was talking to one of the barbers at the Lions Awards,

[00:20:47] Lions Barbers Awards last year.

[00:20:50] And she was absolutely distraught that someone she knew had died from suicide.

[00:20:57] And I said, Oh, it's awful for you.

[00:21:01] But do you know how many you've saved?

[00:21:03] Right.

[00:21:04] Each one you've saved.

[00:21:05] You can't save them all was the point.

[00:21:08] But what you have done is amazing.

[00:21:12] You've made people say it feel listened to for a short period of time.

[00:21:18] So, and I think that is great what they're doing.

[00:21:22] So by doing the pop-ups on site is good for us and good for the

[00:21:25] mental health of our workforce and the charitable donation that is made by

[00:21:30] the contractors, obviously there's costs associated with it, but anything

[00:21:34] that is there, there's not profit made.

[00:21:37] It goes into training more hairdressers, more barbers, more beauticians.

[00:21:41] So that I would love to see this become part of the curriculum for when

[00:21:46] people are training and being an apprentice as a hairdresser or barber.

[00:21:51] So that people that are in their shops know how to look out.

[00:21:53] For the signs.

[00:21:55] And that's incredible, right?

[00:21:57] I'm in my brother's barber.

[00:21:58] So I have a dual loyalty to this and I can see the difference he makes

[00:22:05] to his customers and obviously construction is my passion of 20 odd years

[00:22:11] working in the sector.

[00:22:12] So if I can tie those two things together, great.

[00:22:16] And Tom and my good mate now, Dan is my barber.

[00:22:25] I know there's not much to cope on that because he used foils on my hair.

[00:22:30] You know, they're great people.

[00:22:32] My son loves going to see Dan.

[00:22:34] You know, he's 12 coming up 13, good footballer.

[00:22:39] Covid didn't do his mental health any good.

[00:22:41] You know, he really struggled with it.

[00:22:44] So when he goes to see Dan, they do have a mental health conversation.

[00:22:49] You know, Frankie will talk about football, but Dan will make sure

[00:22:52] he asks how he is and just knowing that person who's looking after your kids.

[00:22:58] And that doesn't change, right?

[00:23:00] I'm 46.

[00:23:01] My dad asks me how I am and he wants to make sure people

[00:23:03] know I'm looked after and it's the same.

[00:23:07] You're like, he knows what he's doing there.

[00:23:09] He's talking to someone.

[00:23:11] It's incredible what they're doing.

[00:23:13] Have you sort of noticed that from, you know, kind of creating an environment

[00:23:20] where so they're going to the barbers and they're talking, has that meant

[00:23:25] that like when they go back to work, have you noticed if, you know,

[00:23:30] workers are sort of, you know, I'm not saying that they're, you know,

[00:23:34] suddenly kind of like, you know, oh, no, let me make you a cup of tea.

[00:23:40] But yeah, you know, I just wondered whether, you know, have you noticed

[00:23:45] that there's sort of a bit more openness on site or, you know,

[00:23:49] or in offices, et cetera?

[00:23:51] Yeah.

[00:23:52] It is.

[00:23:53] No, they didn't make me a cup of tea for sure.

[00:23:57] In the immediate aftermath of someone coming out of the chair,

[00:24:02] like it was just, it just sounds really weird, but the smile on their

[00:24:08] face was like, you just don't see that at work when they're going out

[00:24:13] in this cold outside and they're going to go back and operate a massive

[00:24:17] piece of machinery, a crane or something, right?

[00:24:19] Or one of them's a crane driver.

[00:24:21] And yeah, that was incredible.

[00:24:24] And that feeling and hearing people talking around the site going,

[00:24:29] you haven't the barbers back.

[00:24:31] That was great that day.

[00:24:32] And other projects over the road, right?

[00:24:35] A rival project to us.

[00:24:37] And hearing their workforce go, come pass, they're doing free

[00:24:42] aircoats on that job.

[00:24:43] Because that's what you always said, right?

[00:24:45] Was free aircoats today.

[00:24:47] Because you'd be coming and say, come and have a mental health conversation.

[00:24:50] People go, I don't really want people to know I'm struggling.

[00:24:54] Come and have a free aircoat.

[00:24:56] And then you get in the chair and the barber says, listen, this is

[00:24:58] what we do, this is why we do it.

[00:25:01] What are you having?

[00:25:02] And now what are you?

[00:25:04] And then they'll ask again.

[00:25:05] Yeah.

[00:25:07] And if I say most, most people, I mean, you just mentioned your, your

[00:25:10] lack of hair, but, um, you know, looking at David, you know, I've

[00:25:13] seemed to be the only one that regularly needs to go to a barber,

[00:25:16] but it does come to here, but it's just so great.

[00:25:19] You can't, and when you got the bit of overhead lighting,

[00:25:23] it looks worse than it is as well.

[00:25:26] I have a beard trim.

[00:25:27] That takes longer.

[00:25:28] Yeah.

[00:25:28] To be honest, I, I need to get that regularly as well, but I think,

[00:25:32] you know, we all need to go to the barbers at some point or another.

[00:25:35] Right?

[00:25:35] So I think it's, it's such a no brainer.

[00:25:38] And what I'm, you know, what, what you said as well, right?

[00:25:41] We said, there's a construction industry.

[00:25:44] Traditionally, you know, it's, it's a tough man's work, right?

[00:25:48] You know, there's a tough lads out there.

[00:25:50] Um, they don't cry, right?

[00:25:52] They don't talk about their feelings, you know, not know whatever

[00:25:55] went on a construction site and go like, Oh, you know, I don't want

[00:25:58] to be here because you, you, you man up and just get on with your job.

[00:26:03] So I think it's, it's, it's a brilliant way of how to best face it.

[00:26:07] If I say almost like getting people to talk without, you know, because if

[00:26:12] you put up a side as you say, right?

[00:26:14] Oh yeah.

[00:26:14] Men mental health counseling, free therapy, you know, um, construction

[00:26:18] site over here, people got like, Oh, we don't need that.

[00:26:21] Right.

[00:26:21] We, we, we as a tough guys.

[00:26:24] So I think it's, it's, it's genius.

[00:26:26] It really is.

[00:26:27] I think they, um, talk it to the barbers after and, and, you know, we had

[00:26:33] obligatory photo shoot with the site behind it.

[00:26:35] And, um, I went around and spoke to all of them and said, that was amazing.

[00:26:41] Do you understand the impact you have on all these people's lives

[00:26:45] that you've seen today?

[00:26:46] I'm in a waiting list of 30 by the way, but I couldn't make

[00:26:49] them work for any longer barbers.

[00:26:51] So they need to go home.

[00:26:53] Uh, but yeah, you're right.

[00:26:55] It is a brilliant idea.

[00:26:57] And, you know, I'm not a salesman.

[00:27:01] I hate sales and especially when someone's selling to me, but on this

[00:27:05] subject, on the different calls I've been with, you know, uh, peer companies.

[00:27:11] I can sit there and talk and they go like, well, I will sign that off

[00:27:15] because it is amazing what they do.

[00:27:18] And I think it complements what we do really well as a business because

[00:27:24] you know, there's a real basic needs of going to work, make sure you're paid.

[00:27:32] It's a nice clean environment to work in, which is hard on the construction

[00:27:36] side, but we work really hard, you know, decent welfare, so food, drink,

[00:27:41] that sort of stuff, we try and do that and train our people to spot

[00:27:44] signs if someone's not right.

[00:27:46] And we say that to every single person that's on there.

[00:27:49] So our supervisors, our managers, but it's still making it accessible.

[00:27:59] We're not having to make that call, right?

[00:28:02] We are, I mean, I'm bad enough with phoning the GP when I've got a sore

[00:28:05] knee trying to make the call.

[00:28:08] Said it's a bit out of my day.

[00:28:10] I've got other things to do.

[00:28:12] You know, I'm being silly.

[00:28:13] It's just a sore knee.

[00:28:15] If I was struggling mentally to tell someone, I'll take you to ending this.

[00:28:22] Wow.

[00:28:23] That's a hell of a call to make, right?

[00:28:26] But I'll be in a barbers chair and it flows out then.

[00:28:30] Great.

[00:28:32] I mean, I think you've hit the nail on the head in several ways there.

[00:28:36] And it is such a kind of common thread that we get in the number of

[00:28:43] people we've had on here.

[00:28:44] It's like, well, we realize that you get men in a room and say, right, chat.

[00:28:49] They don't.

[00:28:49] But if you give them something, yeah, if you create the right

[00:28:54] environment, it then comes naturally.

[00:28:57] And you know, and sort of, you know, obviously made a joke about hair.

[00:29:01] And I've just all-

[00:29:03] Just because I can.

[00:29:05] Well, I mean, I've recently just gone to going for the number one,

[00:29:11] just shaving it all off, you know, and it's like, oh, well I'm saving myself money.

[00:29:16] And I did actually sort of think, well, actually, you know, I am missing out on

[00:29:21] that sort of little window.

[00:29:23] And yeah, and you know, I've, I sometimes my beard gets a lot of

[00:29:27] bushy and I think, you know, I was thinking, well, maybe I'll just book

[00:29:30] myself in and say, well, I want number one all over on top, but, you

[00:29:34] know, have a shave and a beard trim because, you know, it's like, well,

[00:29:38] actually it is, you know, an experience.

[00:29:42] And, you know, I do have forums where I can talk, so I guess it's not

[00:29:47] necessarily about that for me, but it's that realization, well,

[00:29:51] actually that might be the only time that, you know, as I say,

[00:29:56] someone, a guy gets to talk, you know, it is perhaps the only time

[00:30:00] he's been asked that month, what have you been up to?

[00:30:04] Man Up Man Down is sponsored by Well Doing.

[00:30:07] As someone who has seen a counselor for a number of years, I think

[00:30:09] their approach is great.

[00:30:11] They want you to find the mental health professional who is right

[00:30:13] for you.

[00:30:14] You can filter your search to highlight therapists with expertise

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[00:30:25] they also have loads of posts and interviews to keep your mental

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[00:30:29] Take a look at welldoing.org.

[00:30:32] You know what, for me going to the barbers, because I work from home

[00:30:36] 99% of my time, right?

[00:30:38] I mean, I see the family regularly, you know, if I say I don't have

[00:30:41] many friends, you know, I have friends and I see them regularly,

[00:30:44] but sometimes they don't get out at all all day, right?

[00:30:47] So if I go to the barbers, you know, once of a sudden I have

[00:30:50] to go to town.

[00:30:51] I have a reason to go to town, right?

[00:30:52] I don't do school runs anymore.

[00:30:54] Right.

[00:30:55] So once of a sudden I'm in town, I meet people, I talk to my

[00:30:58] barber, he has the latest gossip, what's happening and has

[00:31:00] this right, which is great, right?

[00:31:02] He knows about the new construction of, you know, hopefully a

[00:31:06] restaurant and flats and, you know, instead of the tire center

[00:31:09] we had for years and all these little nuggets, right?

[00:31:12] You get, and actually I had to rebook because I'm travelling in

[00:31:15] two weeks time.

[00:31:15] I had to rebook my barber's appointment.

[00:31:18] And by the way, COVID, now we're talking about barbers here,

[00:31:20] but COVID revolutionized barber, I say barber appointments for me,

[00:31:24] right?

[00:31:25] Don't have to sit there anymore for hours.

[00:31:28] How do you politely say no to someone else, right?

[00:31:31] When you want to see someone, someone different and it's just,

[00:31:36] yeah, you just get out to your point, David, right?

[00:31:38] It's great.

[00:31:39] It's great.

[00:31:39] And, you know, as the money you spend, you easily get back in

[00:31:43] terms of, you know, absolutely.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:45] Oh, I mean that, that's the other bit that sort of, you know,

[00:31:49] again, you're not the first guest that's come on here, talked

[00:31:52] about mental, an aspect of mental health and then said,

[00:31:56] Oh, and this, you know, when you put a figure on it and then

[00:31:59] suddenly is almost like when it's like, Oh, Oh, it's costing

[00:32:03] us how much?

[00:32:04] Right.

[00:32:04] We'd better do something about that.

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:07] You know, when it's like, well, it's a, well, yeah, there

[00:32:11] is a lot more to a person than a monetary value, but you

[00:32:15] know, the sad thing is that is how you get the board or the

[00:32:19] shareholders attention, you know,

[00:32:21] Obviously you're not saying that about Mace at all.

[00:32:24] No.

[00:32:25] I see.

[00:32:26] I wouldn't listen.

[00:32:27] You've got to justify it's a private company, right?

[00:32:30] And you've got to be able to afford it.

[00:32:32] And the project that I did it on is a public funding

[00:32:36] company.

[00:32:36] So we're paying taxpayers money out, right?

[00:32:39] So you've got to make sure it's good value.

[00:32:41] So there's nothing wrong in saying, is this the right

[00:32:45] thing to do?

[00:32:46] And then you say, well, of course the economy 1.7

[00:32:50] million for every suicide.

[00:32:52] So yeah, it's worth it.

[00:32:54] But if we save a life and it's crass, maybe if you just

[00:32:59] crass, but I don't, I don't care.

[00:33:01] I want someone to live.

[00:33:03] And if there's a cost benefit to that even better,

[00:33:07] but you should, you should challenge it.

[00:33:09] You should challenge what you're doing.

[00:33:11] Is it the right thing?

[00:33:12] Don't make a box ticking.

[00:33:13] We don't want to tick boxes here.

[00:33:15] We want to make a difference.

[00:33:17] And what we've done on the project is we've done

[00:33:22] on the projects with the barbers that day and the

[00:33:26] ongoing conversations of what are you bringing them

[00:33:29] back?

[00:33:30] Are they here again tomorrow?

[00:33:31] I'm like, no, no, I'll do it every day.

[00:33:33] Right.

[00:33:33] This is only a cost more than the station to

[00:33:36] build, but, but it is incredible.

[00:33:41] What you can, we do all the things right.

[00:33:43] So I mentioned the inductions before and you

[00:33:46] try and get people to talk and you get that.

[00:33:49] This is the first impression.

[00:33:50] Someone comes onto your project and you are the

[00:33:52] face on the face of Houston.

[00:33:55] All right.

[00:33:55] That's probably not a good thing, but you get to

[00:33:58] a bit about you do.

[00:34:00] I've put mental health before physical health.

[00:34:04] So we're the first aid boxes and hospitals and

[00:34:07] all that sort of stuff.

[00:34:08] Right.

[00:34:08] Mental health comes up first.

[00:34:09] You say, do you think we have a problem with

[00:34:11] our industry with mental health?

[00:34:13] Most people say yes.

[00:34:14] Right.

[00:34:15] Let's put it in the room and say yes, we do.

[00:34:16] And then you hit them with the stats.

[00:34:20] Two men per day.

[00:34:22] That's 600 a year.

[00:34:23] Right.

[00:34:23] We've got 400 on our project.

[00:34:25] That's more than we're on.

[00:34:26] That's more people than we have on this job.

[00:34:29] Um, so we show a video, which is really powerful

[00:34:32] video called over the edge and it was shot on

[00:34:35] a bam, not all site.

[00:34:36] And it's really good because they can relate

[00:34:38] to it.

[00:34:39] They can see the people, they can see

[00:34:40] themselves in this video.

[00:34:42] Then you try and bring it to life yourself

[00:34:43] with the real life stuff.

[00:34:44] So I talk about the issues are about dealing

[00:34:46] with Jackie being poorly.

[00:34:49] I say, look, I didn't come here and talk to

[00:34:52] you guys openly about this, which I would

[00:34:55] never have done five years ago.

[00:34:57] Well, I wouldn't have stood in front of

[00:34:58] a room.

[00:34:59] 40 people have never met before.

[00:35:01] Like literally they turned up that day

[00:35:03] and say, listen, we need to talk about

[00:35:05] this because I struggled with hours going

[00:35:08] to tell my children and dealing with that.

[00:35:10] And my son was fine.

[00:35:12] Actually he understood it because I told him

[00:35:14] she was going to be all right.

[00:35:15] Daughter not absolutely.

[00:35:18] That was hardest conversation, but telling

[00:35:21] people in front of you and then they

[00:35:23] start opening up and go, well, this

[00:35:24] happened to me.

[00:35:26] This happened to me.

[00:35:27] Or if I don't tell a story about

[00:35:29] Jackie, I talk about COVID and say,

[00:35:31] you know, my son was all of a sudden

[00:35:33] locked down because he couldn't see

[00:35:37] his friends at school.

[00:35:39] Didn't have to do online learning,

[00:35:41] which he hated and hates a strong word,

[00:35:44] but he hated it.

[00:35:45] And he quickly realized if dad was

[00:35:47] incapacitated, he wouldn't have to do

[00:35:50] his schoolwork because dad wasn't able

[00:35:53] to do it.

[00:35:53] I was furloughed at the time.

[00:35:55] And so I was the teacher, I was

[00:35:58] dad, I was teacher, I was football

[00:35:59] coach and disciplinary and all that

[00:36:01] stuff.

[00:36:03] So he would try ways of like, if

[00:36:05] I would go for a shower, I'd lock

[00:36:08] me in the bathroom.

[00:36:10] So no, he didn't have to do it.

[00:36:12] But it really messed with his head.

[00:36:16] This kid went from this lively,

[00:36:18] outspoken, beautiful boy to real,

[00:36:24] you're angry all the time and you

[00:36:26] have to deal with that.

[00:36:28] I mean, eventually I spoke to

[00:36:29] the schoolers like, you've got

[00:36:30] emergency workers in, journalists.

[00:36:34] You got their kids in because

[00:36:35] they're journalists and they're

[00:36:36] emergency worker.

[00:36:37] I thought that would be an

[00:36:38] ambulance driver.

[00:36:39] I've got this kid who's trying

[00:36:40] to hurt me, you know, and he

[00:36:43] doesn't want to, but it's about

[00:36:44] getting out of this.

[00:36:46] So we need to deal with his

[00:36:47] mental health.

[00:36:48] They took him back to school.

[00:36:49] Things that have in that

[00:36:50] conversation at work, it helps

[00:36:53] me.

[00:36:54] I'm in a good place where I

[00:36:56] have a great job for a great

[00:36:58] company, a good home life for

[00:37:00] an family.

[00:37:01] And I count my blessings every

[00:37:02] day and want people that I

[00:37:06] work with to feel like at

[00:37:07] least they're listened to and

[00:37:09] respected at work and they can

[00:37:10] come to me if they want.

[00:37:12] And I always say to them, if

[00:37:13] you've got a problem at work

[00:37:16] or you just need someone to

[00:37:17] talk to, find me.

[00:37:19] Just ask anyone that gives

[00:37:20] him a number.

[00:37:22] Every time I see him, that's

[00:37:24] what we should be doing more

[00:37:26] of that.

[00:37:27] You sort of mentioned about

[00:37:29] well how long you've been,

[00:37:30] you know, as an organisation

[00:37:32] at Heathrow and you know, and

[00:37:35] I'm sort of thinking there's

[00:37:36] obviously with these product

[00:37:38] projects, there's such a kind of

[00:37:40] long term aspect to them.

[00:37:44] And I'm thinking there's, you

[00:37:45] know, almost like a very long

[00:37:47] term, well not very long term,

[00:37:48] but a longer term sort of

[00:37:50] aspect to this and there's an

[00:37:53] element of sort of paying it

[00:37:54] forward.

[00:37:56] And you know, I'm sort of

[00:37:57] thinking, well how many of

[00:37:59] these guys that worked on

[00:38:01] building sites?

[00:38:03] And so again, it's almost

[00:38:05] like is this the first time

[00:38:07] that they're being exposed to

[00:38:09] this sort of environment, you

[00:38:12] know, open environment and

[00:38:13] talking about your feelings.

[00:38:15] Yes.

[00:38:16] And then actually they're

[00:38:17] going home and speaking to

[00:38:19] their children about it where

[00:38:21] you know, their father or

[00:38:22] parents didn't.

[00:38:24] Oh yeah.

[00:38:25] Possibly.

[00:38:26] I think it is a case, I

[00:38:28] would say over the last five,

[00:38:30] ten years, let's say five,

[00:38:32] ten years, people are paying

[00:38:33] more attention to mental

[00:38:35] health and it gets better

[00:38:37] and then I have no criticism,

[00:38:39] any initiative in

[00:38:41] construction, in dealing with

[00:38:43] mental health.

[00:38:44] I think it's all good.

[00:38:45] The more we do the better.

[00:38:47] But yes, I think there are

[00:38:49] the conversations where

[00:38:51] people will go home now and

[00:38:52] say, shall we did this

[00:38:53] amazing thing?

[00:38:55] Absolutely amazing thing at

[00:38:57] work today.

[00:38:58] And we talked about our

[00:38:59] feelings or I just talked to

[00:39:03] a colleague about what's going

[00:39:05] on.

[00:39:06] So yeah, it is tremendous.

[00:39:08] And I think the other great

[00:39:10] thing that's happening in

[00:39:11] construction is people are

[00:39:12] realizing it's not 1980s,

[00:39:15] 1970s and building and we're

[00:39:17] making these amazing projects.

[00:39:19] More people are seeing

[00:39:20] construction as a career.

[00:39:24] So we've got to deal with

[00:39:25] these issues because if we're

[00:39:27] going to make it an

[00:39:28] attractive, well-paid,

[00:39:31] enjoyable thing to do, we've

[00:39:33] got to look out for each

[00:39:34] other, haven't we?

[00:39:35] I mean, my kids love

[00:39:37] construction now.

[00:39:38] I don't know whether they're

[00:39:38] going to go into it, but

[00:39:40] everywhere we go, they go,

[00:39:41] dad, that's a Mace project.

[00:39:43] Dad, did Mace build this

[00:39:45] terminal?

[00:39:46] Yeah.

[00:39:46] And then we went to New

[00:39:47] York and they're like,

[00:39:48] dad, there's Tiffany's.

[00:39:49] Mace did that.

[00:39:50] You're like, yeah, man,

[00:39:51] this is brilliant.

[00:39:53] Dad just doesn't work with

[00:39:54] people with shovels.

[00:39:55] You know, it's an amazing

[00:39:57] industry.

[00:39:58] And I think the more we

[00:40:00] can do to secure each

[00:40:01] other and things like

[00:40:03] Alliance who I love, you

[00:40:04] know, I have a pin badge

[00:40:06] in whatever suit I'm

[00:40:07] wearing.

[00:40:08] I said a pin badge off and

[00:40:09] I put the lion back on

[00:40:10] and it goes everywhere

[00:40:11] with me.

[00:40:11] It's good conversation

[00:40:13] starter.

[00:40:13] Like are you a Millwall

[00:40:14] fan?

[00:40:15] No, this is the Lions

[00:40:16] World Collective.

[00:40:16] You can't quite miss it.

[00:40:18] So yeah, it is brilliant.

[00:40:20] Fantastic.

[00:40:22] This is such an

[00:40:23] important topic, right?

[00:40:24] Because it's, I mean, we

[00:40:26] talk a lot of us

[00:40:26] construction industry, but

[00:40:28] it can be any industry,

[00:40:29] right?

[00:40:29] Yeah.

[00:40:30] And then there's so much

[00:40:32] more we need to do, which

[00:40:33] is why we do the podcast,

[00:40:35] right?

[00:40:35] I mean, don't want to blow

[00:40:36] my own trumpet here,

[00:40:37] but it's like that's,

[00:40:40] you know, just, just,

[00:40:41] just to talk more about

[00:40:42] it and creating more

[00:40:43] awareness.

[00:40:44] You're right.

[00:40:45] I mean, so I'm

[00:40:46] construction biased,

[00:40:48] but the Lions are not,

[00:40:49] right?

[00:40:49] They've worked with major

[00:40:52] household names, shall

[00:40:54] we say.

[00:40:55] Yeah.

[00:40:56] And I think they are

[00:40:59] doing incredible things.

[00:41:00] You know, the, the whole

[00:41:02] British GT thing came about

[00:41:04] from a well-known

[00:41:06] marketing and advertising

[00:41:08] company.

[00:41:09] And they are, they

[00:41:10] organized the sponsorship

[00:41:11] and they organized it.

[00:41:12] The press that goes with it.

[00:41:14] And I think whatever

[00:41:16] sector you put this in,

[00:41:18] it works.

[00:41:19] It just works.

[00:41:22] And I think, you know,

[00:41:24] I'm never going to stop

[00:41:25] blowing the trumpet for,

[00:41:26] for Tom and, and the

[00:41:28] charity and my man,

[00:41:30] Dan, who always says,

[00:41:31] don't mention me,

[00:41:32] but he is incredible.

[00:41:34] Right.

[00:41:34] He's the lead barber.

[00:41:36] He's super and Cara and

[00:41:38] all the people that

[00:41:39] work from there.

[00:41:39] Amazing.

[00:41:40] Can't say enough good

[00:41:41] stuff about it.

[00:41:43] Yeah, it does.

[00:41:44] It does sound like an

[00:41:46] amazing initiative.

[00:41:47] So if there are other

[00:41:49] organizations out there

[00:41:51] that want to get the

[00:41:52] Lions in, how do they

[00:41:53] go about that?

[00:41:55] Look at what first on

[00:41:56] their website, Lions

[00:41:57] barber collective,

[00:41:58] search on Google.

[00:41:59] It comes up right.

[00:42:00] Nice and easy.

[00:42:01] All the search engines

[00:42:02] are available.

[00:42:03] I suppose it's insane.

[00:42:04] I look me up on LinkedIn

[00:42:07] Stuart Wallace,

[00:42:08] Tom Chapman's on there

[00:42:09] as well.

[00:42:11] Reach out.

[00:42:11] You know, we will talk

[00:42:14] and help and we want

[00:42:17] to see this go further.

[00:42:19] They're on Instagram

[00:42:20] as well.

[00:42:21] You can see their

[00:42:22] latest pop-ups on there.

[00:42:23] And we'll look out for

[00:42:24] on the British GT

[00:42:27] as it comes in there.

[00:42:27] A GT4 car next year.

[00:42:29] You'll see the car Tom

[00:42:31] and Ian Goff are the two

[00:42:33] drivers.

[00:42:34] It's like a pro am so

[00:42:35] yeah, raising awareness.

[00:42:38] Getting it out there.

[00:42:40] Awesome.

[00:42:41] But yeah, I mean sort

[00:42:43] of going back to what

[00:42:44] Volker just said.

[00:42:45] That was something that

[00:42:46] did occur to me when

[00:42:47] I watched Tom's video

[00:42:49] or his Ted talk on

[00:42:51] the Lions collective website.

[00:42:53] And you know, he's like

[00:42:54] I walked in 2015

[00:42:56] and I'm like, God,

[00:42:58] you know, we're almost

[00:42:59] a decade on and

[00:43:01] you know, it's like

[00:43:03] obviously so much work

[00:43:05] has been done.

[00:43:06] But yeah, it's still

[00:43:09] a lot more needs to be done

[00:43:11] because, you know,

[00:43:12] yeah, if not our friends

[00:43:14] and our friends are friends

[00:43:16] that are dying because

[00:43:18] they don't have someone

[00:43:19] to talk to.

[00:43:20] So and I think

[00:43:22] sorry, I'm going on

[00:43:23] a bit of a ramble now,

[00:43:24] but I mean, another

[00:43:25] another point you made is,

[00:43:28] you know, a common thing

[00:43:29] with if you sort of

[00:43:30] discuss mental health issues,

[00:43:33] a lot of people are,

[00:43:35] well, you know,

[00:43:36] let me know if you want to talk.

[00:43:38] And the thing is,

[00:43:39] it's like when you're going

[00:43:40] through a bad mental

[00:43:42] health episode,

[00:43:43] a lot of that narrative

[00:43:44] is I'm useless

[00:43:46] and I'm a burden.

[00:43:47] And then the last thing

[00:43:49] you want to do is

[00:43:50] vote someone out and go,

[00:43:51] I'm feeling like

[00:43:52] I'm going to kill myself

[00:43:54] and, you know,

[00:43:55] and it is just like,

[00:43:56] oh shit, what do I do?

[00:43:57] You know, 100%.

[00:43:59] I think it is,

[00:43:59] you know, just trying to get people

[00:44:01] in an environment where

[00:44:03] they then can talk

[00:44:04] if they need to

[00:44:05] or just making, you know,

[00:44:07] it just a lot more natural

[00:44:09] to say, lads,

[00:44:12] I'm struggling.

[00:44:13] It is so important

[00:44:15] and I meet people

[00:44:16] getting more and more open

[00:44:17] to having a good conversation

[00:44:20] and saying,

[00:44:22] I need help

[00:44:23] or I'll just add

[00:44:24] a rubbish day.

[00:44:27] Someone listen,

[00:44:28] because it's not always

[00:44:29] your partner you live with, right?

[00:44:30] You might have both had a bad day

[00:44:32] and that is a recipe.

[00:44:33] It doesn't always work, does it?

[00:44:35] Right.

[00:44:36] You've had a bad day

[00:44:37] and someone comes there and go,

[00:44:38] well, I've had a more bad day

[00:44:39] than you have.

[00:44:40] All right.

[00:44:41] Yeah.

[00:44:42] You know,

[00:44:43] and you can't always go to the pub

[00:44:44] and see your pals

[00:44:45] because that's

[00:44:46] that's just not good.

[00:44:47] That's just going to exacerbate it.

[00:44:49] But I mean, someone like

[00:44:51] I will text Dan or Tom

[00:44:53] and say, how you doing, bro?

[00:44:56] Yeah.

[00:44:56] Send the love.

[00:44:57] And, you know,

[00:44:59] we might talk about wrestling.

[00:45:00] Tom is massively into wrestling.

[00:45:01] I have to tell you

[00:45:02] one funny story right

[00:45:03] before we finish.

[00:45:04] So I met up with Tom

[00:45:06] when he first started.

[00:45:07] And obviously,

[00:45:08] when he worked for Mace,

[00:45:09] obviously apart from me today,

[00:45:10] I'm in a jumper,

[00:45:11] but it is blue suits

[00:45:13] and, you know, look in the biz.

[00:45:15] And so I took him in,

[00:45:17] met Tom and he turned up

[00:45:19] and I mean,

[00:45:20] he looks stunning.

[00:45:21] Like he could be Aquaman.

[00:45:22] This guy.

[00:45:24] Tattoos, long flowing hair,

[00:45:27] vest, shorts.

[00:45:28] So I took him

[00:45:29] he's probably googling him now.

[00:45:32] I took him into the office

[00:45:34] and walked right past all the desks

[00:45:37] and all the suits.

[00:45:38] They're like,

[00:45:39] who is Steve Roy in today?

[00:45:41] You know,

[00:45:43] this is my guy.

[00:45:44] This is where you're going to pay

[00:45:45] for to come and help us.

[00:45:47] And he just,

[00:45:48] you know, he's a conversation star.

[00:45:50] He's just brilliant.

[00:45:52] You know,

[00:45:54] much love for Tom.

[00:45:54] I think he's an incredible guy.

[00:45:57] Well, perhaps we might try

[00:45:59] and get him on at some point.

[00:46:01] Not saying that you're not

[00:46:02] good enough for a stupid.

[00:46:04] No, and listen,

[00:46:05] I have very much the sideshow

[00:46:07] he is.

[00:46:08] I mean, he's conscious of

[00:46:10] this is about the Lions,

[00:46:11] why it's not the Tom Chapman show.

[00:46:13] But, you know,

[00:46:14] you've got to pay him credit

[00:46:15] for it, for what he started

[00:46:16] and what he's created.

[00:46:17] And this is why I do it.

[00:46:19] You know, I volunteer

[00:46:20] to support them and long may it continue.

[00:46:24] More power to their elbow.

[00:46:26] So I Googled him.

[00:46:27] You're right.

[00:46:28] He looks there.

[00:46:29] How tall is he?

[00:46:30] He looks quite tall as well.

[00:46:31] I reckon he's got,

[00:46:32] he's over six foot six,

[00:46:33] two, six feet, somewhere like that.

[00:46:35] Yeah, so it's not as tall as you, Valka.

[00:46:37] I don't think he's tall there.

[00:46:40] But it looks like he's a,

[00:46:41] he's a bit broader built than me.

[00:46:44] He's in the gym every morning.

[00:46:46] Massive.

[00:46:46] I think his actual dream, right?

[00:46:48] Genuinely, to be an American wrestler.

[00:46:52] I think he could be one

[00:46:52] of the sisters to the picture.

[00:46:54] I mean, I'm in the gym every morning,

[00:46:55] but look at me.

[00:46:58] Hey, Frankie calls him Roman Reigns.

[00:47:02] Right.

[00:47:02] Well, on that note,

[00:47:04] it's probably time to wrap up.

[00:47:07] So yeah, sorry for objectifying you, Tom.

[00:47:09] If you're listening.

[00:47:12] But yeah, anyway, go and check out Tom

[00:47:14] and the wonderful work

[00:47:15] that he does for Reigns while the collective.

[00:47:18] Thanks very much, Stuart.

[00:47:19] Take care.

[00:47:20] Thank you guys.

[00:47:20] See you soon.

[00:47:21] Yes.

[00:47:25] Thanks for listening to this week's episode.

[00:47:28] Feel free to reach out to Volker or David

[00:47:30] via our website,

[00:47:31] www.manupdown.com

[00:47:34] or podcast at manupdown.com

[00:47:36] with any feedback

[00:47:37] or to let us know what topics

[00:47:38] you'd like us to cover in the future.

[00:47:40] Hear you again soon.