Stress, Burn out and middle age men

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Man Up Man Down podcast presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:11] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:19] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com.

[00:00:25] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:31] Welcome to another episode of Man Up Man Down. Today we have the pleasure to interview Katie Maycock.

[00:00:41] So Katie is the founder of Get Your Shit Together, who works with leaders and organizations to develop bespoke well-being strategies that focus on creating sustainable performance from the top down.

[00:00:52] She has 10 years experience in corporate sales and has worked with countless individuals to support their teams through all different growth spaces.

[00:01:00] There's obviously a lot more to it and Katie and I had the pleasure to speak a few weeks back.

[00:01:05] And yeah, first of all, Katie, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:08] Thanks for having me. I'm excited about being here.

[00:01:11] Yeah, I'm very excited because you were introduced to me as someone who knows a lot about stress and burnout.

[00:01:17] And you experience it yourself. You know, big, big topic, well-being, big, big topic.

[00:01:23] I think not only for middle aged men, but you know, I think I think and that's my personal opinion, but I'm sure David would agree that a lot of middle aged men get to the point.

[00:01:32] And I think particularly through COVID and David and I had this discussion where we go like well-being, you know, what are we doing with our lives?

[00:01:38] Why are we stressing ourselves? You know, why, you know, we had a burnout or we might have had one, but we didn't know.

[00:01:45] And we start reflecting as we do in middle age. So yeah, very much looking forward to this episode.

[00:01:51] I'm so glad. I love talking about this anyway, so I'm just happy to be here and able to talk about what I love talking about.

[00:01:58] Brilliant. So do you want to start by giving us a bit more background? If I say what you do, how you got to do what you do, etc.?

[00:02:06] Yeah, absolutely. So I launched Get Your Shit Together in 2018 when I had moved to the UK.

[00:02:12] Did I know anyone? Not really. Did I have channels of my bank account? Yes, I did. Was it stressful? Kind of.

[00:02:18] But I still decided to launch Get Your Shit Together because at the end of the day, I was just about to, I was about to burn up for the third time before I actually launched Get Your Shit Together.

[00:02:28] And I was living in Vancouver at the time. I was working in a sales role and I was working anywhere between 16 to 18 hours a day.

[00:02:37] I actually really loved the job though. Like that was a bizarre thing. I really, really liked it.

[00:02:42] But it was just so exhausting. And I remember this is the reason why I quit and how I ended up watching Get Your Shit Together was I was about to go on holidays and it was the first holiday I'd taken in over a year.

[00:02:56] I mean, I'd been working 16, 18 hour days and there was weeks where I didn't get a weekend or any days off.

[00:03:02] I remember saying to my manager and I'm like, do not message me. Do not contact me at all for these eight days while I go away for a summer break.

[00:03:11] And if you do, I'm going to resign. And she's like, haha, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, no, I'm serious. I'll resign if you contact me for anything big or small. I do not care. I will resign.

[00:03:21] And I think within 24 hours, she messaged me to do something work related. And I was like, as much as I loved my manager, I really did respect her. I was just like, I can't.

[00:03:30] So at that stage, I decided to I came up from a holiday hand in my resignation. There's nothing she could have said or anyone could have said that changed my mind.

[00:03:39] And I realized that me personally, I never realized I'm stressed until my physical health plummets and my physical health was plummeting around that time when I had my first burnout when I was 26 burnt out the second time when I was 27.

[00:03:53] And at that stage, I was 30. And so I was like, I can't keep doing this cyclical burnout. It's just my physical health isn't had as constantly.

[00:04:01] And so I ended up moving to Costa Rica to sort of build out the concept of get your shit together.

[00:04:06] So I used to be I am a nutritionist, but I used to run a nutrition business before I got into corporate sales.

[00:04:12] And I was like, I really want to merge the two together because when I was going through my burnouts, I was really struggling with digesting food.

[00:04:19] I had severe inflammation throughout my body.

[00:04:22] And when I say severe inflammation, I'm saying like, I couldn't walk up and downstairs properly because there was so much swelling in my hips and my knees.

[00:04:29] I remember waking up one day I had swelling in my left hand so bad that it was around three times the size of itself all across the knuckles.

[00:04:37] And I couldn't make a fist for about six weeks. I was suffering from cold sores constantly.

[00:04:42] I'd had the shingles four times. So it was my physical health that was really bad.

[00:04:47] But on top of that, I started having really bad anxiety and I kind of normalize anxiety at that point where I was like, oh, it's just normal.

[00:04:54] It doesn't everyone feel like this? And I was having panic attacks at least two times a week at minimum.

[00:05:01] And then the worst part was my cognitive functioning was so limited every time I burned out.

[00:05:07] It was really scary because I'd go into meetings. It was like I could see people talking.

[00:05:11] I could kind of hear the noises, but nothing that they were saying was actually able to be transferred into anything meaningful.

[00:05:18] So I would walk out of meetings going, I have no idea what was discussed.

[00:05:22] I have no idea what action points I'm meant to be taking from that.

[00:05:26] And that was the same with like emails as well.

[00:05:29] And so that was really, really scary, really, really scary for me.

[00:05:32] And I kind of realized I wasn't the only person that felt that way.

[00:05:36] So, I mean, did you know at the time this is burnout or were you just like, oh, what's wrong with me?

[00:05:46] And always, I mean, and the other thing is something as Valk said, we've talked about a lot, but it's odd.

[00:05:53] I've never kind of heard anyone say I enjoyed the job, but I was burnt out because often it's kind of almost the friction that leads to the burnout of,

[00:06:04] you know, doing something that, you know, you just can't do anymore.

[00:06:09] So I didn't know I was burnt out, although I had gone to the doctors multiple times.

[00:06:14] This was back 10 years ago now, tell my age right now, but it was about 10 years ago.

[00:06:20] And I was going to the doctors because I genuinely was having such bad digestive health issues.

[00:06:26] I had like, you know, swelling in my joints and they just didn't know what was wrong with me.

[00:06:30] I think I spent around 30,000 Australian dollars just trying to find out what was wrong with me.

[00:06:34] And so this was before because you've got to remember in 2019, that's when the World Health Organization came out and said it was a diagnosable syndrome.

[00:06:42] Right. We didn't have that back then.

[00:06:44] Although burnout has been spoken about since the 70s.

[00:06:47] So there was a gentleman named Dr.

[00:06:50] Herbert Freudenberger who was a psychiatrist who was going into corporate companies talking about this phenomenon that we now call burnout.

[00:06:57] But he coined the term burnout back in the 70s.

[00:07:00] It took 40 odd years for then the World Health Organization to sort of come around and say it was a diagnosable syndrome.

[00:07:07] The biggest downfall, in my personal opinion, if I can talk about World Health Organization like that, is that they say that burnout just comes from the workplace.

[00:07:18] That's that's just not true.

[00:07:19] The only precursor to burnout is stress.

[00:07:22] And so I think it's interesting.

[00:07:25] So a lot of the times we think about, oh, you must hate your job.

[00:07:28] There must be a bad manager involved.

[00:07:30] Don't talk about my manager was she tried the best she possibly could.

[00:07:34] And don't get me wrong, people can burn out from bad managers, bad toxic workplaces.

[00:07:37] I'm not saying that's not a symptom and I'm not saying that's not a cause.

[00:07:42] I'm just saying that it's from stress.

[00:07:45] And so for me, I put so much pressure on myself to perform for whatever reasons.

[00:07:51] You know, one of my biggest things and I really had to work on changing this belief was that I was only worthy if I was succeeding and I was making money.

[00:07:59] And that was the person that was the persona that I created for myself.

[00:08:03] So nothing really faced me.

[00:08:06] So I didn't even know I was stressed until my body was screaming at me.

[00:08:09] And then I kind of it took me years to kind of take a step back and actually recognize, OK, these are my triggers to stress.

[00:08:17] This is what stress is for me.

[00:08:19] This is how I can feel.

[00:08:20] This is how I feel it and how I see it.

[00:08:22] And then I had to break down my beliefs around it and start really questioning a lot of the things that I thought and said around stress as well.

[00:08:30] So for me, I've always loved working hard.

[00:08:32] I've always loved working long hours.

[00:08:34] It's just not good for me.

[00:08:37] If that makes sense.

[00:08:39] Probably a silly question, but I ask anyway.

[00:08:42] I mean, David always says there are no silly questions, right?

[00:08:45] But are they common denominators for stress?

[00:08:48] I mean, what would you say?

[00:08:50] I don't know.

[00:08:51] Working 12 hours makes people stressed.

[00:08:53] Is that true for everyone?

[00:08:54] That's what kind of, you know, is a universal have like scale.

[00:08:59] Yeah, there's no stress is a perception.

[00:09:01] Yeah.

[00:09:02] So if you break down what stress is or you look at less like let's just talk about like how I talk about the fight or flight response all the time when I go into companies and talk to individuals.

[00:09:12] Right.

[00:09:13] So let's just talk about the definition of the fight or flight response.

[00:09:16] So the fight or flight response is an automatic physiological response to a perceived threat.

[00:09:22] So it is a perception of that threat, right?

[00:09:25] That's animalistic, right?

[00:09:27] That's just an instant automatic response to stress.

[00:09:30] Now, that's amazing when we're running away from lions, tigers and bears or jumping out of the way of like cars or running away from potential danger.

[00:09:37] But we've taken with our stresses evolve.

[00:09:39] Right.

[00:09:40] It's definitely a lot more complex than what it has been and what it previously was.

[00:09:44] So our perception of stress is different.

[00:09:46] So it's different for every single person.

[00:09:48] Now, I would have told you until I was blue in the face that I function really well under stress.

[00:09:53] I work really well under pressure.

[00:09:55] I, you know, I you put me in any situation, I'll perform.

[00:09:58] That's not necessarily untrue.

[00:10:00] But the dilemma was I tried to live in that 100% of the time and you can't do that because you're draining energy.

[00:10:07] Right.

[00:10:08] So if I, I always talk about the difference between pressure and stress.

[00:10:12] So working well under pressure, you know, you're working towards a goal target deadline.

[00:10:16] You know, it's completely determined by your own performance, your own actions, your own behaviors.

[00:10:21] And if you're working well under pressure, your focus, you can focus, you're motivated, you're driven, you're, you know, you're cognitively able to function at a higher level, have energy, all of that kind of stuff.

[00:10:34] When you tip into stress, though, it's usually you're working towards same target deadline, whatever it is, but you're lacking a resource.

[00:10:42] Now that resource could be energy.

[00:10:44] It could be time.

[00:10:45] It could be support.

[00:10:46] It could be skills.

[00:10:47] It could just even be the recognition and reward.

[00:10:50] So if I look at how I fell into stress and didn't recognize that it was wrong was because in all honesty, I never allowed myself to recognize that I was doing a good job.

[00:10:58] I was running myself ragged and I was exhausted, but I would supplement with, you know, I'll just have a cup of coffee or I'll just kind of push it to the side.

[00:11:06] I ignored my physical symptoms of feeling tired, overwhelmed and all that kind of stuff.

[00:11:12] I would take because I was really effective at my job.

[00:11:15] I would take on more work because I could, but that left me no time to do them appropriately.

[00:11:19] So when you look at the resources, that's when it becomes a problem.

[00:11:23] But because we live in a society where so many people are lacking resources right now, go talk to anyone.

[00:11:29] They're tired.

[00:11:30] They don't have time to constantly finish their work because workload have increased so much.

[00:11:34] They might not have the skills necessary for the job or have the resources they need to do the job appropriately because maybe cut of funding or whatever it is.

[00:11:43] Maybe they're not getting the right amount of support at work because maybe that manage their manager is under stress and they don't have the capacity or the limits to support them or they don't have the skills to support their team.

[00:11:53] And then what happens is they're not getting the recognition and the reward that they need or financial support that they need to be able to function appropriately.

[00:12:01] So it's always a different perception.

[00:12:04] And I think we're always we've been conditioned in society to not deal with stress appropriately.

[00:12:10] Like, here's a question for both of you.

[00:12:12] Like how many when did you get sat down and said this is what stress is?

[00:12:15] This is how it feels like.

[00:12:16] And this is how you manage it.

[00:12:18] Yeah, that leads on to my next question I have because burnout, right?

[00:12:23] I always wonder if I had had a burnout before.

[00:12:27] Would I necessarily know or not?

[00:12:29] How bad is a burnout again, per definition?

[00:12:32] Right. Because, you know, does it just mean you, you know, you can't do anything anymore or can it just be you're really stressed?

[00:12:39] So there's six stages to burnout.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:42] And I can tell you I have a hundred percent burnout two times being very close the third time.

[00:12:47] I've actually gone past burnout once.

[00:12:49] I would never recommend that.

[00:12:51] I wouldn't recommend burning out in general.

[00:12:52] I'm being really honest with you.

[00:13:02] I've been coaching for almost a decade through both third parties and private clients.

[00:13:07] During that time, I've worked with brands such as General Electric, Imperial Brands, DHL and Pepsi.

[00:13:15] However, this year I'm putting a big emphasis on growing my private coaching practice, improving lives of middle aged men in leadership positions.

[00:13:24] So if you hit midlife transition point and you might be a bit stuck or looking to improve your work-life balance,

[00:13:30] your career or productivity, you want to build a new habit where you just want to become a better version of yourself.

[00:13:38] Please hit me up.

[00:13:40] You can reach me on folke.natus.

[00:13:42] That's folke at O-B-N-A-T dot U-S or LinkedIn, whatever is easiest.

[00:13:50] Thanks. And now back to the episode.

[00:13:55] What are these six stages then?

[00:13:57] So the first stage is always interesting to people, which is excitement.

[00:14:02] So this is usually when you're feeling 100% fine, you're working really well under pressure.

[00:14:07] Maybe you've taken on a new goal.

[00:14:09] Maybe you've taken on a new job and you've got promoted.

[00:14:13] Maybe you're going under a new goal, right?

[00:14:15] It could also be maybe something negative has happened to you, but it has increased that focus, right?

[00:14:21] Because you're working under that pressure, right?

[00:14:22] So there is that element there too.

[00:14:24] I always say it's excitement.

[00:14:25] In that phase, what typically happens is physically you're doing really well.

[00:14:29] Mentally you're doing all right.

[00:14:31] You know, emotionally you're all covered.

[00:14:33] Everything you're all sort of firing and all cylinders at that point.

[00:14:36] But what happens is, is you start creating unsustainable habits.

[00:14:40] So that could be working longer hours.

[00:14:43] That could be staying up, sacrificing your sleep, skipping the gym, not eating healthy because you just simply don't have time.

[00:14:49] And this is when people typically go, I'll get back into that once I reach this goal or reach this target.

[00:14:55] But you never do, right?

[00:14:56] Like I'd love for when people would go like, when does that ever happen?

[00:15:00] They're like, well, never.

[00:15:01] But you know, it's an idea.

[00:15:03] So that's the first stage.

[00:15:05] Then you kind of slip into the second stage, which things aren't coming to you as easy.

[00:15:09] So it's what I call working hard.

[00:15:11] So you mentally, emotionally and physically are just having to work harder to achieve the same goals that you were achieving in stage one.

[00:15:19] Right?

[00:15:20] So you might have been performing at really high level.

[00:15:22] You're trying to maintain that, but it's your physically, emotionally and mentally having to put more effort into achieving the same goals, which just takes more of that energy source.

[00:15:32] Right?

[00:15:33] We slip into stage three.

[00:15:35] And this is when people outside of you are going to start noticing something's not quite right.

[00:15:40] So this is what we call frustration.

[00:15:42] So it's not, it's not, you don't always just have to be an angry person.

[00:15:47] So what's typically happening at this stage is physically you're starting to feel quite tired.

[00:15:52] You know, you're just a bit more fatigued than what you used to be.

[00:15:56] Mentally, you're not able to focus as much on making more mistakes.

[00:16:00] You're not able to make decisions very well.

[00:16:02] You're starting to get a bit overwhelmed.

[00:16:04] Then in the third, and then with emotionally, you're probably starting to feel just a little bit raw.

[00:16:08] So maybe you've gone from being cool, calm and collected to being quite frustrated and easily irritated.

[00:16:14] Or maybe you've gone from somebody being really outgoing, really bubbly, being really engaged and offering solutions and all that kind of stuff in the workplace.

[00:16:23] But then maybe you're withdrawing a little bit.

[00:16:25] But normally at this stage, if we just think about work, your performance is dipping.

[00:16:30] But even if we just take work out of the equation right now, this just might mean maybe you're not showing up the way that you used to in relationships.

[00:16:39] Maybe you're not showing up in the same way that you used to with like your kids, your loved ones, your parents, whatever it is, your friends.

[00:16:46] You're just starting to be a bit more withdrawn.

[00:16:48] And this is where they kind of went.

[00:16:50] I'm going to go for a tangent for one second.

[00:16:51] I will, I promise you I'll give you the other three stages.

[00:16:55] But I think this is when we look at stress.

[00:16:58] Stress comes at you in all different ways.

[00:17:00] It comes at you in relationships.

[00:17:01] It comes at you from like your socioeconomic status.

[00:17:04] It comes at you with your finances.

[00:17:06] It's all of these things.

[00:17:08] It's not just work.

[00:17:09] And that's what I really try to talk about when it comes to burnout, because it's not just a workplace issue.

[00:17:13] It's just a human issue.

[00:17:16] So that's stage three.

[00:17:18] Come back to the stages now unless you want to say.

[00:17:21] Stage three I probably would have had to.

[00:17:24] Yeah.

[00:17:25] Then we get to stage four and this is when it's what I call illness and anxiety.

[00:17:30] So this is when we're starting to really see some huge signs, right?

[00:17:34] So stress has a profound impact on your physical well-being.

[00:17:39] It lowers your immunity.

[00:17:41] It lowers your digestion and it increases your inflammation.

[00:17:44] So this is why it's causing so much so many health issues.

[00:17:47] And this is why we say stress is the number one killer.

[00:17:50] This is the biggest reason.

[00:17:51] So everyone might have a different health issue.

[00:17:54] So we can look at all if you think about all lifestyle diseases, so like high blood pressure, strokes, cardiovascular disease, obesity, diabetes, all of these things.

[00:18:06] They're all linked and cancer.

[00:18:08] They're all linked to inflammation, which is all linked to stress.

[00:18:11] Right.

[00:18:12] That's why we call stress the number one killer.

[00:18:14] But you can't be under stress for a prolonged period of time without your body taking a hit.

[00:18:19] It's just what happens.

[00:18:20] But I notice at this stage, this is when I start seeing severe gut health issues.

[00:18:25] One of the biggest reasons why my business is called Get Your Shoot Together, it's actually Get Your Shoot Together literally and figuratively, is because of the impact stress has on gut health.

[00:18:34] And because I'm a nutritionist, I specialize in gut health.

[00:18:37] But that's how the business came about as well, because I was suffering so badly from gut health issues and like just life issues.

[00:18:46] And I remember constantly whispering to myself, I'm like, God, Katie, you need to get your shit together literally and figuratively.

[00:18:51] Like it's just every way for you to figure it out.

[00:18:54] So that's what the business comes from.

[00:18:56] But that your body is in dire straits at this stage.

[00:19:00] You're physically not feeling well.

[00:19:02] You're probably getting sick more frequently.

[00:19:04] You might be getting really vague health issues as well.

[00:19:07] So like skin issues, like just random things that you weren't dealing with before.

[00:19:11] But this is also when emotionally you're starting to sort of see really big cracks and a lot of people kind of start getting that anxiety where, but it's easy to be kind of like excuse away in a way because maybe you feel really sick and then you're really anxious and you can sit there and go, well, of course I'm anxious.

[00:19:29] I'm really sick.

[00:19:30] And that sort of that was what I did.

[00:19:32] And a lot of people do that as well.

[00:19:34] A lot of people will live in denial that they are actually struggling with stress and burnout.

[00:19:38] And they might not even realize for many, many months after that.

[00:19:42] So that's stage four.

[00:19:44] Then we slip into stage five, which is apathy.

[00:19:47] Now this is quite a scary stage for a lot of people.

[00:19:50] I work a lot with like the type A professionals, the really highly motivated, highly ambitious high achievers.

[00:19:57] And this is the part that really, really scares the crap out of them because they've gone from loving what they do being highly motivated, highly driven.

[00:20:08] And they wake up in the morning and it's like, I just don't care.

[00:20:11] Like I don't care about myself.

[00:20:12] I don't care about my job.

[00:20:13] I don't care about anything right now.

[00:20:15] And the biggest part about this, what I always try to explain to people is it's not that you don't care.

[00:20:20] It's you no longer have the capacity to care.

[00:20:22] It's like your brain's gone.

[00:20:24] You know what?

[00:20:25] We're done.

[00:20:26] We shut down.

[00:20:27] We're done.

[00:20:28] So it's not that you don't care.

[00:20:30] You don't have the capacity to care.

[00:20:32] And then we get to final burnout.

[00:20:34] Burnout is physical, mental and emotional exhaustion from prolonged stress.

[00:20:39] This is at the pinnacle.

[00:20:40] So when I burnt out and everyone's going to have a different experience with burnout, but I literally felt like I just woke up one day.

[00:20:47] But when I look at the six stages, I'm like, no, no, I was on the journey for quite some time.

[00:20:51] I literally remember waking up one day and I was like, I don't even think I could contemplate or even muster the energy to get out of bed.

[00:20:59] I just couldn't do it.

[00:21:00] If you ask me a question, I was like, I don't want to answer you.

[00:21:02] Like, don't talk to me.

[00:21:03] Like it was I physically my body was in such dire straits that I couldn't even physically when I wanted to couldn't get out of bed.

[00:21:09] But I emotionally and mentally just didn't want to.

[00:21:11] And it was so out of character for me to have those feelings.

[00:21:14] But that was my burnout.

[00:21:16] I couldn't process information.

[00:21:19] I couldn't remember things.

[00:21:20] I couldn't focus.

[00:21:22] I couldn't concentrate.

[00:21:24] And my body was just screaming at me and everyone's going to have a version of that of what that looks like to them.

[00:21:32] There's lots of interesting things that I can relate to, but also would like to pick up on.

[00:21:41] I mean, one thing actually I did want to say and you know, it's I'm not trying to correct you or anything,

[00:21:48] but just on the flight or flight.

[00:21:51] But there's also a third rate freeze.

[00:21:54] Yeah.

[00:21:55] And I guess like for me, well, I guess when I'm stressed about a deadline, then, you know, it's almost like I just literally get paralyzed.

[00:22:05] So that would be like the way I would say that and I will die on this hill is that procrastination comes from stress and anxiety.

[00:22:13] When we actually look at the freeze response and we look at it from the hunter gatherer example is that if you were running away from a lion, tiger or bear, right?

[00:22:21] And you go into a cave and you kind of skate from that cave, your body's just going to go, well, I physically can't fight or run away from this potential threat.

[00:22:30] So what I'm going to do is I'm actually going to lower everything down.

[00:22:33] So I'm going to lower my heart rate.

[00:22:35] I'm going to lower my breathing rate, but I'll lower everything down.

[00:22:37] And the way that you're going to think about that is you playing dead.

[00:22:41] So it's like, if I get really, really small and I pretend like I'm dead, then I'm going to be safe.

[00:22:47] So that's the freeze response when we look at it just from the hunter gatherer response.

[00:22:50] When we come, I know a lot of people take the fight flight of freeze response and like tries and look at it from a we look at it from a like we try to bring that into like modern day society.

[00:23:01] But essentially what we've got to understand is that the fight flight of freeze response is actually a very physical response.

[00:23:07] Right.

[00:23:08] But because we're not really in situations where we can either run away from our stress or fight our stress or even freeze from that stress, because it's not probably socially acceptable.

[00:23:18] It's not going to help us.

[00:23:20] We need to find other coping mechanisms because the flight flight and freeze response isn't going to serve us well in these situations.

[00:23:26] It's actually going to probably cause more stress, cause more issues within our relationships, cause more issues in the workplace.

[00:23:32] And that's why we've got to be really careful when we're like using that.

[00:23:36] I mean, another sort of point going back to some of the things you were saying.

[00:23:41] I mean, you sort of mentioned about, you know, with your anxiety, you like I thought everyone felt like that.

[00:23:47] And again, you know, that's sort of something that I can relate to that it sort of almost well and that sort of subjectiveness around stress.

[00:23:56] I mean, you know, I'd sort of be watching like a James Bond film and he's disarming a nuclear bomb.

[00:24:01] And I'm like, you know, I get stressed making a sandwich for the kids before the school run.

[00:24:06] You know, how on earth can he remain calm and disarm a nuclear bomb?

[00:24:11] And obviously that, you know, that's fiction.

[00:24:13] But I guess if we all had the same reaction to stress, we'd all be heart surgeons or, you know, we'd all be caring.

[00:24:21] But I mean, the other sort of, I guess, sort of question slash point.

[00:24:27] We've had quite a few guests on here who said, you know, I had burnout and they sort of said, you know, I wasn't performing at work.

[00:24:36] You know, I wasn't present for my family.

[00:24:39] And my question often is, was that something that was pointed out to you or that was how you felt?

[00:24:46] And, you know, lots of times it's almost like, you know, your colleagues or your family don't actually notice.

[00:24:54] Sometimes it can be almost creating your own narrative.

[00:24:58] But the other thing is I'm sort of trying to sort of think where, well, you've got burnout, then you've got depression.

[00:25:07] And, you know, with sort of depression, I often sort of feel personally for myself.

[00:25:14] And again, I'm not saying this is the approach everyone should take.

[00:25:17] But I often think, well, I've got to take some responsibility for it myself in that, you know, I want to lay on the sofa.

[00:25:25] But I know if I get out for a walk for an hour, you know, it will completely change my mindset.

[00:25:30] But, you know, it is that I just cannot face getting out the door.

[00:25:35] But, you know, sort of another sort of side to that is the, you know, it's sort of being kind to yourself.

[00:25:44] And I saw this great thing about being kind to yourself isn't actually laying on the sofa.

[00:25:51] Being kind to yourself is getting yourself out the door.

[00:25:55] So, you know, sometimes it's not generally taking the easy route, you know.

[00:26:02] Sometimes being kind is giving yourself a bit of tough love.

[00:26:07] So I think when it comes to burnout and depression, they can be quite linked, right?

[00:26:12] You can absolutely because you've got so what I find with people with burnout,

[00:26:17] they'll actually go from like anxiety to apathy and then they'll cycle through that.

[00:26:22] Right. When you burn out, a lot of the time, especially if you're a Taipei professional,

[00:26:29] you will not want to look for excuses not to do something.

[00:26:32] You're like, I don't want to be lazy. I don't want to do this.

[00:26:35] But you physically can't. There's a massive difference that you physically can't.

[00:26:40] So when it comes to burnout, it's acknowledging actually I'm really screwed right now

[00:26:45] and I really need to be kind to myself and not be giving that drill sergeant a voice too much right now

[00:26:52] and allowing myself to restore.

[00:26:56] When we look at I'm a massive, massive believer when it comes to mental health,

[00:27:00] we do need to have personal responsibility and personal accountability

[00:27:04] when it comes to anything like physical and mental well-being.

[00:27:07] Right. They go hand in hand.

[00:27:09] So you do need to personally take responsibility of what you can do.

[00:27:13] A lot of times when we're like I have a three stage thing when we're looking at dealing with burnout.

[00:27:18] The first stage is let's build you physically back up.

[00:27:21] And that can look at, you know, the first thing that we have to get right is sleep.

[00:27:24] You have to make sure that you're getting enough sleep because a lot of the times when you're stressed

[00:27:28] and you're anxious, you're not sleeping very well.

[00:27:30] So we've got to work with you on that.

[00:27:32] How do we get you a good night's sleep?

[00:27:34] Because that's going to help you physically mentally and emotionally reset.

[00:27:36] There's a magic there in sleep that you have to that you can use.

[00:27:40] Right. Then we've got to get you eating well, making sure that you're restoring your body

[00:27:44] because obviously your body is really depleted of energy and restores right now.

[00:27:49] So let's build that back up.

[00:27:51] Maybe you're eating really unhealthy and some crappy food that's not going to make you feel good.

[00:27:54] Let's change that, right?

[00:27:56] Let's get you doing some exercise.

[00:27:58] The massive caveat with exercise when it comes to burnout, it really depends on the person.

[00:28:03] This is why every single person's journey with burnout is unique to them of overcoming it,

[00:28:08] is meeting yourself where you're at.

[00:28:10] So for me, when I was physically burnt out, I mean I was going to the gym six days a week.

[00:28:14] Like I was really ruining my body.

[00:28:17] Like I was not letting it restore at all.

[00:28:19] And like I said, being stressed for a prolonged period of time has a profound impact on all your resources.

[00:28:25] Right?

[00:28:27] So for me, it wasn't actually getting back into the gym and going for an hour.

[00:28:31] It was actually going, okay, your body right now needs to restore.

[00:28:35] So maybe go for a gentle walk.

[00:28:37] Like don't screw yourself up.

[00:28:39] Maybe do some stretching.

[00:28:40] Maybe it might actually just be maybe you need to do some breathing exercises just to do something.

[00:28:46] I mean, I think that I say to people when they're burnt out and then I take this and I take it in every element.

[00:28:51] But I always say like do the rule of three.

[00:28:54] The rule of three is just do three things today that's going to make you feel a little bit better.

[00:28:58] That's going to fill your cup.

[00:28:59] And that could be getting up and having a shower because when you were 100% burnt out and you went down and down for the cat,

[00:29:06] doing that is going to be exhausting.

[00:29:08] Right?

[00:29:09] For some people.

[00:29:10] It could be just making sure you have breakfast that day.

[00:29:12] It could be making sure that you've just had a phone call with a friend that day.

[00:29:15] It could just be I'm going to do a stretch.

[00:29:16] I'm going to do this one little thing that's going to fill my cup and just understanding what that is and always checking in on yourself every day.

[00:29:23] Like, what can I realistically do today?

[00:29:25] And call BS on yourself.

[00:29:27] Right?

[00:29:28] Like, no, I can't go to the gym for an hour today.

[00:29:30] That's just actually insane.

[00:29:31] Like my body is in ruins.

[00:29:33] Right?

[00:29:34] But I could probably go for a gentle walk.

[00:29:35] So it's being able to do that.

[00:29:37] That's why you have with people with burnout is meeting them with their app rather than just like giving them advice from what you think is what they should do.

[00:29:46] It's going, OK, where are you at?

[00:29:47] Where are you physically?

[00:29:48] OK, cool.

[00:29:49] Could we do this?

[00:29:50] OK, let's give it a go.

[00:29:51] Let's go from there.

[00:29:52] So I think there is.

[00:29:53] But they will take accountability for that.

[00:29:54] Right.

[00:29:55] And then and then the next stage is to really understand how the heck did we allow stress to hijack you so hard that you're now burnt out.

[00:30:04] Like, what were the triggers?

[00:30:05] What were the reasons for that?

[00:30:06] What are some of the things that we can put in place to make sure that this doesn't happen again?

[00:30:11] I find when people burn out once, they're more likely to do it again, especially if they don't then take the step back and understand what's your relationship with stress.

[00:30:18] What are your beliefs?

[00:30:19] How did your beliefs play into this for you burning out?

[00:30:22] What situations and environments were you in that stressed you out?

[00:30:27] What were your triggers?

[00:30:28] And breaking that all down and better understanding that and how that happened.

[00:30:33] And then the third stage is, OK, what actions and boundaries do we need to put in place to make sure this doesn't happen again?

[00:30:40] So you know how to confidently move forward in your life so you don't do it again.

[00:30:44] And that's that that's the part there.

[00:30:46] Man Up Man Down is sponsored by Well Doing.

[00:30:49] As someone who has seen a counselor for a number of years, I think their approach is great.

[00:30:53] They want you to find the mental health professional who is right for you.

[00:30:56] You can filter your search to highlight therapists with expertise where you need it.

[00:31:01] Or you can pay to use their personalized matching service.

[00:31:04] The people who run Well Doing are experts in mental well-being, and they also have loads of posts and interviews to keep your mental health in good shape.

[00:31:12] Take a look at WellDoing.org.

[00:31:15] Well, for me, you know, it's sort of like the exercise thing is like if I've if I've had a cold or something, so I haven't been, you know, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to exercise.

[00:31:24] I know I'm going to make myself worse.

[00:31:27] And then after a few days, you know, it really affects my mood, you know, and it is like something that I'm so conscious of that, you know, exercise is, you know, so intrinsic to my mental health.

[00:31:40] But, you know, at the same time, there's, you know, so many times where I'm like, oh, I'm still not feeling great, but I need to exercise.

[00:31:48] Then it prolongs it for another week and then it prolongs it for another week.

[00:31:52] Oh, I'm queen of that.

[00:31:53] Trust me.

[00:31:54] Like none of times that I've gone to the gym and it's just been insane.

[00:31:58] Like I went to the gym one time and I had the shingles.

[00:32:01] I should not have gone.

[00:32:02] I'm glad you said shingles.

[00:32:04] I thought you were going to say something else.

[00:32:06] I said shingles.

[00:32:08] And if you've ever had the shingles, it is the most excruciating pain.

[00:32:13] Like it's a nerve pain.

[00:32:15] It is so painful.

[00:32:17] Your body is literally telling you.

[00:32:19] I am like, I was 24.

[00:32:21] So I, that's young to get the shingles.

[00:32:23] That is young.

[00:32:24] My body was going do not go.

[00:32:26] I ended up with the flu for six weeks and I ended up in hospital because my body was just like, bro, what are you doing?

[00:32:33] Like you can't wake up and do that.

[00:32:35] But I think that's when I'm saying you've got to be, you really got to know yourself well enough to know.

[00:32:40] And I just think people spend enough time getting to know themselves to know like this is actually normal.

[00:32:46] This isn't.

[00:32:47] Yeah.

[00:32:48] I will genuinely get a comment in after this, Volker.

[00:32:51] But I just, I just wanted to say I love that whole description of the sergeant major voice.

[00:32:56] Yeah.

[00:32:57] And again, it's that thing of like we talk to ourselves how we never talk to our friends.

[00:33:02] You know, it's like, you know, yeah.

[00:33:04] Why didn't you do that?

[00:33:05] You idiot.

[00:33:06] You know, rather than, oh, never mind, you know, get it right next time.

[00:33:10] Yeah.

[00:33:11] You know, I can't be ill.

[00:33:13] I still have to go to the gym, right?

[00:33:14] It's just, but that's, that's exactly.

[00:33:16] I mean, I started drawing a little bit of a diagram here because you mentioned sleep, alcohol, exercise, right.

[00:33:23] And then exercise being, you know, almost overdoing it.

[00:33:27] But then if I heard you correctly, you said earlier you work with a lot of A players.

[00:33:32] Did you use the word A player?

[00:33:33] Yeah.

[00:33:34] A players, type A professionals, high achievers.

[00:33:37] It's hard.

[00:33:38] But if you, if, you know, it depends how you define A players, right.

[00:33:42] But, you know, if, if you define them and I'm, you know, I'll say I'll get you some time to answer them.

[00:33:47] But it's like, if these guys that, you know, if I say guys, girls probably as well, right.

[00:33:52] Because there will be also probably, you know, a difference between male and female in terms of how they perceive stress and burnout.

[00:34:00] But if you have these go-getters, right.

[00:34:02] These, you know, and I probably wouldn't call them A players because I think they're B or C players because they probably don't listen to, you know, their stress.

[00:34:10] You know, they don't listen to their body.

[00:34:11] Right.

[00:34:12] Or maybe you call them A players because you will work with them and you will make them feel better.

[00:34:17] Right.

[00:34:18] Because they, I think they're ruining themselves.

[00:34:20] I mean, we haven't touched on it yet, but we touched on sleep.

[00:34:23] 5am routines.

[00:34:24] I'm a big believer in 5am routines.

[00:34:27] I'm having a 5am routine.

[00:34:29] But I hate nothing more when Robin Sharma and I'm sure he didn't mean it that, you know, in that way.

[00:34:35] But when he published his book 5am and then you saw all these poor people on Instagram going, oh, you know, it's 5am.

[00:34:42] I'm up, you know, only got three hours sleep.

[00:34:44] And you go like, for fuck's sake, just go back to bed.

[00:34:46] Just get some sleep.

[00:34:47] You're 5am or Robin Sharma's 5am might be you 10am.

[00:34:51] Right.

[00:34:52] Listen to your body.

[00:34:53] So with the type, so what I'm saying, I said the type A professional.

[00:34:57] So it's actually if you go back, there's type A professionals and type B professionals.

[00:35:01] The type A professionals are typically very highly motivated, very they are go-getters.

[00:35:08] They're very driven.

[00:35:09] They're extraordinarily hard on themselves.

[00:35:12] They don't believe in excuses.

[00:35:14] They believe in putting in the hard work and they don't believe in the whole like taking a rest day and all that kind of stuff.

[00:35:20] The B player, not the B players, but the type Bs are usually people that are a bit more moderate.

[00:35:25] So they're a bit more like I'm going to work really hard.

[00:35:27] I'm going to switch off at the end of the day and go home and enjoy the family.

[00:35:30] And even if there's an emergency at work, it's like, well, you know what?

[00:35:33] That can stay that can I could leave that until tomorrow.

[00:35:36] Right.

[00:35:37] Type A professionals.

[00:35:38] Not if they're a fireman.

[00:35:40] No, not if they're a fireman.

[00:35:41] Obviously it's all work dependent but later we'll go with the corporate world.

[00:35:45] But the type A professionals don't do that.

[00:35:47] Right.

[00:35:48] And there's a massive study that's gone out and that said type A professionals are more likely to have cardiovascular disease.

[00:35:53] They're more likely to have lifestyle diseases.

[00:35:54] And then more likely to die before the age of 50 than the B, the type Bs.

[00:35:59] Right.

[00:36:00] So obviously you want to be a B person.

[00:36:01] A type A person is usually somebody that will always put work above everything else and put a lot of pressure on themselves and pressure probably on the people around them, especially if you're a manager.

[00:36:11] And those are the people that I typically work with.

[00:36:13] And a lot of the times it's understanding how you build that mindset, like why is success so much more important to you than your own physical well-being?

[00:36:23] Like why do you take a step back?

[00:36:25] And so with those people that burn out, they'll go past burnout.

[00:36:29] They'll burn out and then still keep working past it.

[00:36:31] But that's and that's the danger zone because that's when we're getting into like, you know, we're ticking over from mental health into mental illness at this stage.

[00:36:39] Right.

[00:36:40] Like there's that element.

[00:36:41] That's something that we have to talk about.

[00:36:43] And so I'm not saying no one else can burn out because burnout, like I said, comes from anything.

[00:36:48] If you're a mom and you're a single mom and you're trying to work full time and try and pay the bills while trying to take care of your kids and getting no support, you're going to put yourself at burnout.

[00:36:56] Most women have higher rates of burnout than men.

[00:36:59] That's just it.

[00:37:00] It's just a fact because of that.

[00:37:02] Right.

[00:37:03] If you're a carer, let's say you're taking care of a sick loved one.

[00:37:07] Most carers that are taking care of a sick loved one, especially if they're at the end stage of life, they're more likely to burn out than others.

[00:37:16] Right.

[00:37:17] So it's not just saying this is why I always have to when I'm talking about burn.

[00:37:21] I'm not just saying it's just from a workplace and I'm not just saying it's just a mindset and a type of person.

[00:37:26] I just so happen to work with the type A's because they're the ones that do put that in there.

[00:37:32] I want to talk about the 5AM club.

[00:37:34] I like the concept if you're getting seven to nine hours of sleep, if you're not getting seven to nine hours of sleep, what the heck is the point?

[00:37:41] Like I naturally wake up early and it's awfully annoying for everyone around me.

[00:37:46] I wake up in the morning and I'm like, it's the morning time.

[00:37:49] Let's get up and let's do Starbucks.

[00:37:51] I'm naturally that way.

[00:37:53] But you want to try and have a conversation with me after five o'clock.

[00:37:56] You're not getting anything out of me.

[00:37:58] Like I am like, I am tapped out.

[00:37:59] Do not talk to me.

[00:38:00] I'm done.

[00:38:01] Right.

[00:38:02] Well, the people on the opposite side that, you know, their brains don't start working until midday and they go and laugh until like 11 o'clock at night.

[00:38:08] Like honestly, at the end of the day, if you're doing the five, if you want to wake up at five and great, but you have to make sure you're getting seven to nine hours of sleep and good quality sleep.

[00:38:19] And that means limiting caffeine 10 hours before you go to bed, limiting alcohol before you go to bed.

[00:38:24] That means making sure that you're switching your phones off and your tech off at least an hour or two before you go to bed.

[00:38:30] Right?

[00:38:31] Like you're creating a routine that's allowing your body to fall asleep.

[00:38:35] I couldn't agree more.

[00:38:37] I need at least seven hours.

[00:38:39] So I'm going to bed between nine and ten.

[00:38:41] Yeah.

[00:38:42] And anyone who thinks they can burn the candle in both ends is just yeah.

[00:38:46] Yeah.

[00:38:47] But thanks for clarifying on the type A and B, which actually I looked it up whilst you were talking.

[00:38:52] It's very similar to Wolf's Personality Test, right?

[00:38:54] You know, type A is a vet person, you know, the go-getter that, you know, there's executives and then you have all these other types in that as well.

[00:39:02] So yeah.

[00:39:03] So in that sense, I'm a type A.

[00:39:05] And I'm of course an A player as well.

[00:39:07] That's how you want to define it, right?

[00:39:10] Exactly.

[00:39:11] I think everyone, the type A, type B professionals, I think that was really spoken quite a lot in the 70s and 80s.

[00:39:17] I think.

[00:39:18] Yeah.

[00:39:19] Do not hold me on that 100%.

[00:39:20] But I think that's rather.

[00:39:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:23] I hear that.

[00:39:24] Again, that sort of got me thinking, you know, I sort of made the glib joke about, you know, not if you're a fireman.

[00:39:30] But then I was thinking, well, that is almost like the mentality of a type A.

[00:39:36] They're looking for the fires or, you know, they're like, oh, that's, you know, every problem is a fire that needs to be put out straight away.

[00:39:43] So yeah, you know, they will sort of rush to every perceived emergency.

[00:39:50] Well, they'll create everything.

[00:39:51] So getting a type A person to go, OK, let's prioritize.

[00:39:56] Like, well, everything's a priority.

[00:39:57] I was like, well, no, it's not.

[00:39:59] Let's break that.

[00:40:00] But I understand that because that's how I lived.

[00:40:03] Like, I was notorious when I worked in sales to be responding to emails at midnight.

[00:40:08] I've got my fiance next to me going like, what the heck are you doing?

[00:40:12] No one's reading this email.

[00:40:14] But it has to go like, I need them to know that I'm motivated and I'm here for them.

[00:40:18] And it's such a weird mindset to be in.

[00:40:22] I mean, that sort of going back to what you said right at the start when you sort of said, you know, you said to your boss, if I get an email, then, you know, like.

[00:40:32] But well, but my question was going to be, so had you sort of set yourself up as I am the one that is always on and, you know, I do always respond because.

[00:40:43] Yeah, no.

[00:40:44] It's about establishing your boundaries, isn't it?

[00:40:47] And yes, I sorry, Carrie.

[00:40:49] No, I was at that in that job.

[00:40:52] I was very much always on time, always.

[00:40:56] I was always, always on time, always there whenever anyone needed cover.

[00:41:00] I was there.

[00:41:01] Like, I was there like I was the most reliable person.

[00:41:05] No, that's not fair to say those other people on my team that were very reliable.

[00:41:08] But I would typically just like, yeah, I'm happy to do that.

[00:41:11] Yeah, I'm happy to do that.

[00:41:13] And I was pretty I'm a very chilled out person because I love something.

[00:41:17] I'm happy to do that.

[00:41:18] But I know my limits and I had spoken to this manager before about I've done all these hours to totally get it.

[00:41:26] You've got you've got all these things that's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:41:29] But I think because I was so used to responding and being like, yeah, that's cool.

[00:41:36] Don't stress.

[00:41:37] But I had never really put a hard boundary in place.

[00:41:39] And when I'm one of those people where you give me if I give you a hard, that's a hard boundary.

[00:41:43] That's a hard no.

[00:41:44] I've told you exactly what's going to happen.

[00:41:46] But I think because I was always reliable and always there.

[00:41:49] Yeah, it was.

[00:41:50] I just don't think it was really understood that that was going to be my response.

[00:41:54] Even though I said that was going to be my response.

[00:41:57] I mean, you sort of talked about those six phases to summarize.

[00:42:01] If you are a leader, how do you recognize burnout in yourself or in your peers and your staff?

[00:42:13] I mean, the first thing I think people need to really do is take a step back and have a check in with themselves.

[00:42:18] Like actually, how am I physically, mentally and emotionally doing?

[00:42:21] Like burnout, if you give it, if you look at the description of burnout, it's physical, mental and emotional exhaustion from prolonged stress.

[00:42:26] Right.

[00:42:27] Take a step back, ask yourself, how am I physically feeling?

[00:42:30] And being brutally honest with yourself.

[00:42:32] Easiest way to do it is ask yourself from one to ten, how am I doing?

[00:42:36] Ten being amazing, one being not great.

[00:42:38] So if you can go where am I at physically, mentally and emotionally, and you can break it down into three if you want.

[00:42:43] Or you can do an overarching scale if you want.

[00:42:45] But I like to break it down.

[00:42:47] You can measure that over a week, a month, whatever it is.

[00:42:51] You can do this with if you're a leader, you can do this with your team.

[00:42:54] They might not want to share the physical, mental and emotional side.

[00:42:57] They might just give you an overarching number.

[00:42:59] If you're constantly below us, like, you know, if you're constantly scoring low on that scale, you know, you've got something you got some work to do as well.

[00:43:08] But I think with burnout, it's really understanding those six stages and really understanding your habits, how you're perceiving, what's your body telling you?

[00:43:18] Like there is warning signs.

[00:43:19] You don't just wake up one day and like, oh, I'm burnt out.

[00:43:21] It can feel that way.

[00:43:22] But there's been warning signs leading up to it, since you've actively ignored them.

[00:43:27] So really understanding.

[00:43:28] But I think the scaling system can be really, really helpful.

[00:43:31] And I think within your team as well, it's just if someone's randomly behaviour has changed and they've gone from being cool, calm, collected or outgoing and they've gone the complete opposite, that's a pretty big warning sign.

[00:43:42] It has performance to it.

[00:43:44] Are they making mistakes that they never made before?

[00:43:46] Like there's so many things that you can look at within your team.

[00:43:50] There's so much in there.

[00:43:51] And I think it affects everyone, not only middle-aged men, but I think a lot of people and I'm generalising here don't realise, as you said, they don't realise they are stressed or they might realise they're stressed, but they might not realise how bad the stress is.

[00:44:05] That leads to burnout.

[00:44:07] Right.

[00:44:08] And they might not have someone that says, listen to yourself.

[00:44:11] Right.

[00:44:12] Here's a big old mirror.

[00:44:14] You know, and instead they might just be in that environment where people push each other and it's just all going to fall together like hours of hell.

[00:44:25] Anyway, unfortunately we have time for Katie, but thank you so much for your time, obviously, and your wisdom.

[00:44:33] If people want to find out more and want to get their shit together, where do they go?

[00:44:38] So they can go to my LinkedIn.

[00:44:39] So if you just Google Katie Maycock, you'll get your shit together, you'll find me.

[00:44:44] You can go.

[00:44:45] So I've got two websites because it's funny.

[00:44:48] The reason is that a lot of corporate enterprise businesses don't like the word shit when they hire you.

[00:44:53] So I've got so you can either go to just wellbeing.com, which is really good for if you are a corporate company and you're looking for a speaker or I've got blogs on there or that kind of stuff.

[00:45:04] So you can do that or go to get your shit together dot I.

[00:45:09] I've got a website there as well.

[00:45:10] So you can also go there as well.

[00:45:11] And that's a bit more of a membership based model that I've got there.

[00:45:15] But if you want other things, I'm on all socials.

[00:45:17] I've got a YouTube channel.

[00:45:18] So get your shit together or Katie Maycock as well.

[00:45:22] And you can also go on Instagram.

[00:45:24] I've stepped up my Instagram game.

[00:45:26] It's you.

[00:45:27] Is it great?

[00:45:28] No. But am I getting there?

[00:45:29] Surely.

[00:45:30] Yeah.

[00:45:31] OK, great.

[00:45:32] We put all that in the show notes as well.

[00:45:33] Thanks again.

[00:45:34] Yeah, that's it for today.

[00:45:35] I think.

[00:45:36] Thank you, Katie.

[00:45:40] Thanks for listening to this week's episode.

[00:45:42] Feel free to reach out to Folker or David via our website, www.manupdown.com or podcast at manupdown.com with any feedback or to let us know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future.

[00:45:55] Hear you again soon.