Taking the stress out of sleep

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Man Up Man Down Podcast, presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're

[00:00:16] often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:20] You can find this online at www.manupdown.com.

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:56] Welcome to the Man Up Man Down Podcast, presented by Volker Ballueder and David Pawsey.

[00:01:26] James is also poor sleeper so that makes it interesting.

[00:01:56] Before we went live I was telling you about it.

[00:02:26] David and Larry are full of anticipation to find out are we good sleepers?

[00:02:36] How were we performing bed?

[00:02:38] It's good that I am an expert in helping people perform better in bed so that we can get to the root with the problem.

[00:02:47] It's just why the hammers won their first trophy in goodness knows how long.

[00:02:54] I've got to say congratulations on that as a sleeper.

[00:03:02] I might say they got good cultures that embrace the best expertise possible or it might just say I'm a very lucky mascot.

[00:03:12] Some clubs are like a girl, some clubs will have an eagle, some clubs of a sleep expert who turns up and tells jokes about sleep.

[00:03:48] I did that. My moment of my piffy came when we employed a sleep expert, it was a bit of a dipstick and it wasn't very nice.

[00:03:55] It told that customers and told me it was my fault and I thought I could do better than this because I think a good sleep comes from emotional and physical security.

[00:04:05] We have an underlying genetics, an imaginetics.

[00:04:08] I want to come to my grandpa who sold the bed, so you know he's he wasn't for him for me.

[00:04:15] I won't be in now and it wasn't for him.

[00:04:17] I won't be a poor sleeper.

[00:04:19] But I do sleep better but I don't sleep perfectly and I have three kids with blender family.

[00:04:25] I have a company that I've done.

[00:04:27] It's not great being asleep.

[00:04:29] It's not the best job if you're poor sleeper being asleep because people's poor sleep reminds me of my own and I go like,

[00:04:37] my little voice of Edgar's James, you.

[00:04:39] It's like you, isn't it? You used to sleep well that day.

[00:04:42] Oh, just feel sleep tonight and I think it's sleep is an interesting thing.

[00:04:46] We often put it alongside excising and nutrition which is why it says in the truck often.

[00:04:53] But I would say sleep is more like me and I'll help eat it.

[00:04:55] It's not something you can control in the way that I think some of the trucking companies want you to believe.

[00:05:01] And I would say one of the truths about sleep is the harder you try the harder it gets.

[00:05:06] So often I'm working with people who shouldn't, who would obsess who are sleep is that number one priority and that's the worst thing you can be because actually if you are poor sleeper,

[00:05:17] one thing you're brilliant at has been tired and I think changing your mindset is very powerful in this stuff.

[00:05:25] Yes, as you said, you send me some data. One from a Garmin watch, one from an Apple.

[00:05:30] But alongside that data, so if I work with like so a lot of footballs will have truckers and I always get them when we look at trucking it again for answer three questions alongside that.

[00:05:41] And this is how I track with people I work with. I don't generally use truckers. I would not say to someone user tracker.

[00:05:46] I work with people who do use trackers, but my preference is to is to have a more light touch approach because I think if you're sleeping poorly, you're going to be me asking you to ask you every day what your tracker data is.

[00:05:58] You just remind you of your poor sleep. So I would I would I would I would give that display in which trackers there are two types of poor sleepers or the two types of people who work with me.

[00:06:07] One is sleep optimizers. People who want to improve their sleep, they might be one into excise in the morning. They might be have a schedule that's worth it to suit their sleep patterns and they might or they might be like like sports person.

[00:06:20] I just want to get that if I want to get more out of the sleep that get tracking tracking can be probably more helpful for that sort of person.

[00:06:26] I think if you're poor sleep like me, tracking just reminds you of something you already know wake up in the morning. Look at your data failed again failed again. Well done James your failure.

[00:06:35] And I think a lot of people who are poor sleepers think a tracker is an intervention. It's not it's a measurement tool.

[00:06:40] I mean one of one of the things that we have sort of mentioned on this podcast before is you know like the amount of anxiety that you can get from these you know wellness in a vertical devices.

[00:06:54] You know and it's that thing of like you know you can wake up thinking I don't feel too bad. Then you look at your watch and like I got what I only got five hours sleep. Oh my God, you know it is.

[00:07:06] And then there's other times where it's like well I shouldn't be feeling tired because my watch says the I slept really well.

[00:07:13] And as you say, you know it's almost anxiety gets tied into that which obviously anxiety is for sleep.

[00:07:23] And the last research this and the tutu groups of people that told them they didn't let him know how long the slept the told him how well the slept.

[00:07:31] And really the really strong correlation between what you're told in terms of your sleep and your performance the next day.

[00:07:38] So it's less correlation between knowing how much you've slept and performance or correlation between what you believe about your sleep and performance.

[00:07:46] So I think I think it's you know sleep is a good sleep is a byproduct of physical and emotional security.

[00:07:51] And I would argue for a lot of people trackers are designed to create emotional insecurity because it's why I part of my work is I work on product development.

[00:07:59] I've worked with tracking companies and I have a company where we have been on the same table investors a lot and investors will ask you how often what was your stickiness of your app.

[00:08:09] I'll be coming back to your device every day and I would say some of the language particularly used by trackers where what I see is quite good sleep that's good sleep they would use was like okay.

[00:08:21] And that that that use of language is very interesting because okay is very different to good and things like you perform worse than 35% of people of your age in your gender but actually when you look at the actual world the data like offensively some offer a few we think it was.

[00:08:38] Where she's about 90 and I was good quality. Good quality with them and the device on that sort of height but other people doing better and that that's just thing that was me when when when I think my message with this is with track needs about what you're feeling is more important than let's contextualize it so we're not in mind let's contextualize this data and I'm going to go some questions quickly answer and we'll ask you like do you think you're good sleepers like what show view of your sleep are you a good sleeper are you okay sleeper are you a bit of a rubbish sleeper to give me idea of both of you what what you think.

[00:09:07] And that's that question who wants to go first you want me to go first.

[00:09:11] Okay so I generally think I'm a good sleeper so yeah should I elaborate on that I don't know why I think I'm a good sleeper so I can do it so I so for instance as an example but I so I'm a light sleeper so I hear noises so it's the cat comes in at night and at me also just even you know last night the cat came in at 8 a.m.

[00:09:32] at 8 a.m. you know I can I pick the half I do I wake up from it when I'm in deep sleep or I assume I'm in that deep sleep and the kids come in you know when when I'm petting with the kids are younger and they stand at the end of your bed

[00:09:46] I know I notice it you know so I pick that up subconsciously somehow and I get a total fright and wake up you know especially if they go like oh daddy you know I can fall asleep very easily

[00:09:59] I don't know if that's good or bad I guess it's like I have to be found out we will find out yeah so I'm a big nipper I've always met a lot so it's uni I used to work as a warden in Horde which meant I often was called out at 3 o'clock in the morning 2 o'clock in the morning

[00:10:14] 5 o'clock in the morning and some nights not at all which meant I needed to start to learn how to nap so I got through uni by literally studying for 90 minutes sleeping for 20 minutes

[00:10:28] so everything could sound good then I had a coffee and repeat that cycle all day and then I was up you know I mean I worked as a balancer as well as uni so it was up until 3 o'clock in the morning but if I say no days you know I don't know

[00:10:42] and I'm saying maybe taking some some questions away I'm usually in bed between 9 o'clock and I'm asleep by 10 o'clock I fall asleep like nothing probably because I'm very tired

[00:10:52] I'm up at 5 o'clock at the morning routine I do a lot of exercise in the morning and then come 11 o'clock I get a bit tired but then if I work from home I usually have a 20 minute nap you know I'm village sleep every lunch time so I'm block out an hour for lunch

[00:11:06] 20 minutes is my nap if I'm very busy or if I'm on the road I try to get 10 minutes in here and there I'm select for instance on the training you know I just set 10 minutes shut eye

[00:11:16] or you know I'm flying to Germany next week and usually when I go on a plane I usually have like 10-15 minutes just before take off and then I'm fit for the flight to just get some work done

[00:11:26] so I feel like I'm a good sleeper fall asleep easily and I have my sleep optimized but curious to hear your opinion

[00:11:34] how are you doing then? So I'd say historically I'd see myself as a bad sleeper as I mentioned you know as a result I use sort of various sleep aids ranging from well I like sleep tea

[00:11:50] to sleep tea in the evening generally I use ear plugs because you know we live on a main road and you know I use like night toll and you know sort of tablets like that I've tried CBD oil so I'd say that you know if I'm not doing those things then I'm a terrible sleeper

[00:12:12] I mean one thing that I would say is so I play generally play football on a Friday night which is you know sort between 8 and 9

[00:12:22] and I you know often after that it'll be like 2-3 in the morning before I can get to sleep you know I'm guessing that's like the adrenaline and everything

[00:12:34] but I mean an unlike Volca I you know I cannot sort of I certainly can't fall asleep in the chair you know I can't I think I might have slept on a plane once when I was about 14

[00:12:48] but yeah you know I'm not someone that will fall asleep on public transport I mean yeah like Volca says sort of any

[00:12:57] well yeah I you know it is almost like I have to sort of completely isolate myself to you know complete black out and to know ear plugs so that that's me

[00:13:10] So the next question is what's your sleep type so sleep type is like culture no there's Krono type we'll we know it is large snows but when we talk about it

[00:13:19] so it's two poles here's a lot of kids and now that's why I'm actually one easy like Volca continues more line between the two we'll sit on that line

[00:13:26] we do move on that line as we go through life so in your teenage age you might as well as you sort of hit you in 20s you kind of get to put where you've got your sleep type for the rest of your life

[00:13:35] 10 and 55 you sleep type is quite similar in between that it does it does just a little bit things can sometimes get mixed up with some people like do find it harder to sleep as they get older

[00:13:45] and that could often be seen as I make it and we can move a lot because I get older I know it's just just sleep is more difficult to sustain

[00:13:50] we're more sensitive to caffeine is we get older we'll sensitive to alcohol simply for women you know they will start to live with the men

[00:13:56] for men you're often muscles running next start to loosen you might be more prone to storming or to sleep up near

[00:14:02] so one of the myths around sleep is we need less sleep as we get older you don't you need the same is just harder to get

[00:14:08] So where is it working out your sleep type to think about it is thinking about genetics you know you will have a period and that probably got some sleep type to you

[00:14:14] think about how you sleep were you in holiday when you haven't got along to where you are how would you natural what time you just wake up so based on that

[00:14:21] are you will are you and how are you somewhere in the middle

[00:14:25] I mean for me I'd say that I'm I'm in the middle and you know at any sin interesting you sort of use the the holiday analogy or example because

[00:14:35] yeah I guess you know can be on holiday and wake up at 10 in the morning but could also be on holiday and you know be waking up at 6

[00:14:45] Harding of all hard of a poor sleep is to work out sleep type because it could be something you know he could be there are other things

[00:14:51] wake you up that aren't a silly because of your you know when he's not sure with them and that can be sometimes quite a cool and that's

[00:14:56] where what I think about I think about his 90 minute windows so I'm a bit of a really middle so I will I will go to sleep so

[00:15:03] maybe half 9 11 I'll wake up somewhere between half 5 and 7 and if I'm hitting about 6 half 7 hours sleep between good quality in those times I've met my sleep

[00:15:11] need for rather than it being I've got a good to be at 10 wake up at 6 that that that creates stress it is more of a it's more

[00:15:20] of a window of opportunity as opposed to a set in stone time because actually one of the truth about sleep is you can't

[00:15:26] fall short sleep and and that's one of the one of the problems we have I think poor sleep was often a tried to fall asleep too much

[00:15:33] Hello it's Fulka here I hope you enjoy this episode you might not realize that I have been coaching for almost a decade through

[00:15:42] both served parties and private clients do the time I've worked with brands such as General Electric Imperial brands

[00:15:50] DHL and Pepsi however this year I'm putting a big emphasis on growing my private coaching practice improving lives of middle aged

[00:16:00] men in leadership positions so if you hit mid life transition point and you might be a bit stuck or looking to improve your

[00:16:07] work life balance your career or productivity you want to build a new habit will you just want to become a better version

[00:16:15] of yourself please hit me up you can reach me on full care dog Natus that's full care at all be NAT dot US or LinkedIn whatever is easiest

[00:16:28] thanks and now back to the episode

[00:16:33] Well I mean yeah that sorry Volka I took a message Volka like earlier on saying I'm feeling a bit under the weather today

[00:16:42] or I'm probably going to be quiet you're gonna have to do more but yeah obviously we're talking about one of my favorite subjects

[00:16:48] So Volka if you if you tell me about your sleep time how would you how would you see yourself

[00:16:53] so I I think I would say I'm a lot because it's why I get up at five right I know he's out all year but five

[00:17:00] because you said I want to get by five so would that make you a lot I mean even all it is I get up at five

[00:17:05] because I so used to it and sometimes you know meditating bet and then go back to sleep for another hour two

[00:17:12] you know you know it's a treat right so if I'm one of the days and I'm tired I wake up at five

[00:17:18] if I'm really stressed and you might have seen that in the sleep date as well I wake up at three

[00:17:23] and sometimes I don't go back to sleep and then I'm awake and you know it's not unheard of for me that I get up at three

[00:17:31] get a bit of work done until about nine ten or so then go back to sleep you know for four hour

[00:17:37] so I'm if I say traditionally I'm trying to think back when I was a child

[00:17:43] or even when I was a uni I didn't mind staying up late but I think I'm naturally more inclined to get up early

[00:17:50] and I think the thing with the sort of lockage behavior so less there's a lot generally would say about six to the people somewhere in the middle

[00:17:58] about 30% are owls and about 10% are locks society is not kind to owls so one of the problems we have inside is that you know if you're a late type

[00:18:08] you're more like it's called lazy you're like teenagers and all that be late types we start schools far too early for teenagers

[00:18:13] they should start should start ten for me if we want to solve the epidemic of mental health issues I'm obesity with our teenagers

[00:18:20] let's start school later better results research shows it but we won't do it because it he craves a bit of social disruption

[00:18:27] I think you know people in workplaces if you are having to go up at six in the morning to go to work and you're an owl

[00:18:33] then that will create some sleep deprivation and that was sort of the way that thing can be helpful or it can be quite difficult you know

[00:18:40] for people who are who else I am going to say you both are Lincoln we'll put them in to show notes as well

[00:18:45] there is a thing you could do which actually is a question that will tell you a bit more of an indicator what your sleep type is

[00:18:51] so I think that'll be interesting for you to do and see what you think your sleep type is

[00:18:57] and what this questionnaire tells you will be interested

[00:19:02] and I keep making real we are developing our own sleep type question questions because this is the first questions I ask around people sleep

[00:19:09] the last question I ask you is what's your post-judge sleep in what's your position during the night is it fun is it back is it side or is it a combination of two or more of those three things

[00:19:21] so for me it's probably a combination I always start on my back and fall asleep on my back but then when I wake up at night I might be on my side

[00:19:27] usually on my right hand side because I was told and again this might be in an old-wise tale

[00:19:33] if you stick on your left because it's where your heart is it's too much pressure of your organs on your heart

[00:19:38] you shouldn't sleep on that time

[00:19:40] there is that research I've seen it again when those things out for poor sleepers can cause a lot of anxiety

[00:19:45] yeah I know something I focus on I know there's other sports sleep experts who don't think of that

[00:19:51] but sometimes I kind of kind of love with my blanket

[00:19:54] yeah the fetus position but normally I'm on my back

[00:19:59] yeah and I'd say that I start off on my left side well you know sort of left side slash on my front

[00:20:08] yeah again I like to have a bit of a cuddle with the blanket which obviously my wife doesn't appreciate

[00:20:16] because I'm always stealing the duvet

[00:20:18] I think I'm a good separate duvet with you have a sleep

[00:20:22] because a helps temperature regulation so you're not sleeper

[00:20:26] I think particularly for women it could help temperature regulation and be if you live where duvet hogger

[00:20:30] you know you don't want to be called in middle of the winter so separate duvets can be a friend and do you think all of it

[00:20:36] yeah I do separate duvets is I like it I think it's a good one although I don't know myself

[00:20:40] because I like to know my wife's there so although I have came from the people for us

[00:20:45] I love that the massive fan yeah no I mean that's that sort of well almost lead us on to an interesting topic

[00:20:52] I mean yeah we she now uses another duvet she got up with it but I mean you know there's sort of lot of talk about

[00:21:02] sleeping in separate beds well you know as you say temperature regulation and you know you basically

[00:21:09] especially if you've got two different sleeping types but then as you say you like to know your wife is there

[00:21:15] I mean how often is that sort of a conflict where you've got sort of I've always we've got you know

[00:21:24] we're lucky enough to have a spare bedroom so if there's nights where I'm sort of tossing and turning

[00:21:29] I'll then go into the spare room

[00:21:32] So I would say on that the court is leading to also hate that term because he's not a devotee

[00:21:36] can save relationships I think we often are trying to do opposite tools in terms of sleep

[00:21:40] you'll have an hour and a lock make sense because when you bring it up when you bring it up kids

[00:21:44] I mean one that's the only one that's late works and there's some research around like

[00:21:49] the this research on a couple of different tribes in South America and Africa where people

[00:21:53] have been born with sleep types I've fitted the group because actually in that group

[00:21:58] there was only 20 minutes in the debt in the three-fire period where people were

[00:22:02] where everyone was asleep because he was part of protection so it makes sense

[00:22:06] and I know this is only an adult but I barely meet a couple with the same sleep type

[00:22:11] it is often opposite hot sleep or cold sleep or good sleep or poor sleeper

[00:22:15] and that causes issues and I think it is a compassionate conversation

[00:22:19] but again you get some expertise when everyone's just sleeping except for beds because he's better

[00:22:22] because green Victoria did and she lived to this age so that's the best thing to do

[00:22:26] I don't be with that either I think it's his couples right in choice to make that decision

[00:22:31] but I think don't feel that social pressure that you've got to sleep in a certain way

[00:22:35] I think it's what works for you and I think particularly as we get older he said

[00:22:39] men or more I just know we're in a more I just know as well because they also have the

[00:22:43] lusciousness of the muscles around the throat

[00:22:46] you know in night so when we sleep at me it doesn't get picked up

[00:22:49] that's really scary because he's a life limiting condition

[00:22:52] and menopause and just more sensitivity can be I think if we don't have a spare room

[00:22:59] we've got to make kids but I think if we didn't my wife would at times say

[00:23:03] can you go and sleep in there because she's been annoying

[00:23:06] because I am annoying

[00:23:08] I am annoying

[00:23:09] yeah I am annoying one so I think he's interesting

[00:23:12] but the reason I ask about posture is because a lot of people sleep on their

[00:23:15] front and if you sleep on your front you sleep on your hands above your head

[00:23:18] your neck to one side

[00:23:20] and that's creating loads of pressure and a lot of people waking up in the night

[00:23:24] what's tricking their wake in is just being in that position

[00:23:27] and it can be just you can't move properly

[00:23:30] so I think I think he's the question I asked because sleep posture is really important to sleep

[00:23:34] him well and it's an easy fix

[00:23:36] if you sleep on your front you were sleeping inside by a body pillow

[00:23:39] I could be 30 pillow but or by a knee pillow

[00:23:42] that you put between your knees by just hugging all the cushion

[00:23:45] and you start to learn sleeping inside well so it's maybe you need to write pillow

[00:23:49] between here and here

[00:23:50] pillow is the job of the gap between your neck and the mattress

[00:23:53] so it's not what's the one pillow for everyone

[00:23:55] it's what's the pillow that will give you keep your head in a really straight position

[00:23:59] that's what we look away

[00:24:00] it's back or side

[00:24:01] that's what we're looking for

[00:24:02] and I think it's an easy it's a really easy win when he comes to sleeping well

[00:24:06] that will go off and will no outlet

[00:24:08] will take CBD by a meditation app

[00:24:11] will people when he talks like the problem is they've got a sore shoulder

[00:24:15] and that's because they've got a pillow in a mattress

[00:24:17] that starts supporting him properly

[00:24:18] and the the spirit fortune is on loads of different things that aren't on the right solution

[00:24:22] so what I keep make we do

[00:24:24] and what we're told about I'm taking the stress out of sleep on the podcast

[00:24:27] is he's like where do we start with you

[00:24:29] what was the thing that stopped him you sleeping

[00:24:32] not jumping in the middle and buy something

[00:24:34] which is what we often do as poor sleepers

[00:24:36] and sleep optimizers

[00:24:38] I want to optimise the sleep

[00:24:40] so I'm going to go on a first thing to do is go out

[00:24:42] and spend a lot more than a tracker

[00:24:44] you could just start with the three questions that I ask everybody

[00:24:48] which we ask you

[00:24:50] which are

[00:24:52] how quickly do you fall asleep

[00:24:54] less than five minutes

[00:24:56] between five and 30

[00:24:58] or more than 30 minutes

[00:25:00] now Valkyrie you've told us about this

[00:25:02] and it's really interesting it's a lot

[00:25:04] I am a good sleep because I fall asleep quickly

[00:25:06] fall asleep in less than five minutes is a sad asleep deprivation

[00:25:08] the biggest indicator of you have not met your sleep need

[00:25:10] in the days before

[00:25:12] and that's the thing that we ask

[00:25:14] so when people say

[00:25:16] our James are four sleep five

[00:25:18] so we're good sleeper

[00:25:20] that's not true because because that's the real

[00:25:22] the main indicator I use for sleep deprivation

[00:25:24] more than 30 minutes

[00:25:26] on a regular basis is a side of

[00:25:28] something so it might be

[00:25:30] you're going to bed too early for your sleep type

[00:25:32] it might be you're going to bed a bit early for you

[00:25:34] so you're thinking you're longer to get sleep you need to

[00:25:36] might be not winding down to a bit for bed

[00:25:38] you know you're watching a horror film

[00:25:40] or you're watching a crime drama

[00:25:42] and it's a first sight which Trash TV is the greatest thing ever for good sleep

[00:25:46] comedy is good with petitive

[00:25:48] TV channels put the stuff that's good in terms of

[00:25:50] petitive on a two o'clock in the afternoon

[00:25:52] so you know falling in bed

[00:25:54] you know what's going to happen

[00:25:56] people with B&B is going to start fighting

[00:25:58] placing the sun

[00:26:00] you know what's going to happen

[00:26:02] people are going to go and buy a hundred

[00:26:04] $150,000 pound flight in some Spanish resort

[00:26:06] it happens every day on place in the sun

[00:26:08] so I think it's important to like

[00:26:10] the next question is how many times you remember waking up in the night

[00:26:14] because we all wake up three to six times at night

[00:26:16] every single night you wake up three to six times

[00:26:18] we coming out of our sleep cycle is part of

[00:26:20] a part of the evolution that protected us from predators

[00:26:24] we come out of our sleep cycle we're listing out for same with two tigers

[00:26:28] what's that? What's that? A hairming comes on

[00:26:30] 11 minutes before the best of our senses

[00:26:32] switches off 11 minutes after

[00:26:34] you need to be awake for five minutes to remember

[00:26:36] being awake so if you just wake up

[00:26:38] and you check for back to sleep

[00:26:40] you're fine

[00:26:42] you wake up and then you start thinking about where kids relationships

[00:26:46] embarrassing thingy is five years ago to pub

[00:26:48] that's when your brain starts to work

[00:26:50] so there's a trigger

[00:26:52] there's also a trigger for wakeening

[00:26:54] plant the snoring person shutting the door

[00:26:56] kids aluminum at the end of your bed

[00:26:58] there's a trigger coming in

[00:27:00] punchy face all these things are triggers

[00:27:02] but actually then if your brain kicks in

[00:27:04] it's harder to get back to sleep

[00:27:06] having starts wondering I wonder if I've done that thing at work

[00:27:08] I wonder if I wonder I should have handled that

[00:27:12] arguing five years ago better

[00:27:14] I've just sort of a really zingered line

[00:27:16] I'll think about that at three o'clock in the morning

[00:27:18] that's what a lot of poor sleep is

[00:27:20] you're solving problems where good sleep

[00:27:22] still wake up

[00:27:24] they fall back to sleep because they're good sleepers

[00:27:26] so I think I think if you don't remember

[00:27:28] when you keep it all

[00:27:30] brilliant that I love you when I can't

[00:27:32] that's for me but no matter how much sleep I've had

[00:27:34] that that's just to me that my sleep

[00:27:36] what the sleep I got was really good quality

[00:27:38] wake remember waking up one or two times

[00:27:40] find you know that that's fine

[00:27:42] that's not a massive concern

[00:27:44] feel more than it is

[00:27:46] and I think no so I'd say on both your data

[00:27:48] you were pretty good on that one

[00:27:50] on sleep quality

[00:27:52] obviously Volkond was full of

[00:27:54] a complete list of families

[00:27:56] think of David actually look at your data

[00:27:58] generally yeah you look like a good sleeper

[00:28:00] from the day I've got

[00:28:02] because you were fully sleeping

[00:28:04] in about five to three minutes

[00:28:06] you were waking up

[00:28:08] maybe once or twice in the night

[00:28:10] had a couple of cases with more than three

[00:28:12] but you've actually said to me in conversation

[00:28:14] you know it takes you two hours to get to sleep

[00:28:16] so that could be an anomaly

[00:28:18] over the last couple weeks

[00:28:20] because like two hours getting to sleep

[00:28:22] I would say you actually said to me

[00:28:24] I think a ham of him is off

[00:28:26] of the podcast or all of it

[00:28:28] you went a bit later

[00:28:30] and you were really quickly

[00:28:32] well that's actually

[00:28:34] after the good place to start to improve your sleep

[00:28:36] if you're fully sleeping 12

[00:28:38] you're going to be like 10

[00:28:40] well let's wind down for the hour before 12

[00:28:42] create a healthy routine

[00:28:44] a really strong routine

[00:28:46] and then let's start to move

[00:28:48] you can maybe move that

[00:28:50] and you'll do a little bit

[00:28:52] because I've talked about that night in my window

[00:28:54] your night in my window might be half 10 till 12

[00:28:56] we could get it to half 10

[00:28:58] hour before 12

[00:29:00] we'll start one you know

[00:29:02] the last question we ask is how do you feel at 10-11 in the morning

[00:29:04] because at 10-11 in the morning

[00:29:06] you should feel it alert and active

[00:29:08] because that's the time in your body is natural

[00:29:10] with them where you're most alert

[00:29:12] so I think you said you felt a bit lethargic around too

[00:29:14] that's perfectly normal

[00:29:16] between 1 and 3

[00:29:18] we're more likely to be lethargic

[00:29:20] between 5 and 7

[00:29:22] we're a little bit of a dip as well

[00:29:24] and we can feel a bit lethargic

[00:29:26] in the morning

[00:29:28] but I'm exercising in the morning and the tiredness comes on that

[00:29:30] so again that's contextualizing the data

[00:29:34] and in some ways

[00:29:36] if I was working with you on one I'd discount that a little bit

[00:29:38] because we know where that tiredness is not necessarily from

[00:29:42] sleep deprivation or maybe it is

[00:29:44] based on some of the other indicators we get in

[00:29:46] so if anyone wants to track their sleep lightly

[00:29:50] if I'm working with someone I'll go to a little diving

[00:29:52] and we use smiley faces, a smiley face

[00:29:54] and all that face to the sad face

[00:29:56] and we answer these questions

[00:29:58] and for me it's if you have him

[00:30:00] 3 in a row of one of those being

[00:30:02] sad, being sort of

[00:30:04] something that's a worry

[00:30:06] so he whether he's

[00:30:08] fornously taking you quite a long time

[00:30:10] or fornously quickly

[00:30:12] whether he's waking up more than three times in the night

[00:30:14] or whether I feel tired every day at 10 am

[00:30:16] if we're having that for a couple of days

[00:30:18] that's when if I'm working with people on a one

[00:30:20] that's what I'm like right

[00:30:22] with the sports people I'm like with

[00:30:24] this is how I try and get them to

[00:30:26] contextualize the day on the top

[00:30:28] so I've had sports people track you the sleep

[00:30:30] come through your data really well

[00:30:32] maybe tell them they're getting 5%

[00:30:34] the REM sleep, 10% deep sleep

[00:30:36] often it's because they're using a WOOP

[00:30:38] because I use a chocolate fireguard

[00:30:40] in my opinion than that product

[00:30:42] when we get them to think about themselves

[00:30:44] how they feel

[00:30:46] and what's happening

[00:30:48] going to bed in the night

[00:30:50] the day off of the tracker

[00:30:52] and then they go forward still use a tracker

[00:30:54] but they contextualize it better with how they feel

[00:30:56] and that's how we often want people

[00:30:58] to look at. Now when we look at your

[00:31:00] data you sent across

[00:31:02] again they would eat looked or right now

[00:31:04] the garments less usable I think in terms of the interface

[00:31:08] it's talking a lot about heart rate

[00:31:10] heart rate is

[00:31:12] good to measure deep sleep and I think all

[00:31:14] track is struggle to measure REM sleep

[00:31:16] so again people are looking at their tracker data

[00:31:18] and they're really very happy

[00:31:20] that if you're measuring REM sleep in a clinic

[00:31:22] you've actually got some sensors here

[00:31:24] because it's picking up

[00:31:26] you know, that's what you watch

[00:31:28] all rings track can't do that

[00:31:30] so I would use the analogy

[00:31:32] to get the chocolate teapot

[00:31:34] and sometimes

[00:31:36] some of them can really show

[00:31:38] to get anywhere near what your REM sleep would be

[00:31:40] so I always take that data

[00:31:42] with a little bit more

[00:31:44] pinch of salt and I think the thing about deep sleep

[00:31:46] I get asked a lot like what like from journalists

[00:31:48] what can we do to improve deep sleep?

[00:31:50] What can we do to improve REM sleep?

[00:31:52] He don't really work like that. If you improve your

[00:31:54] wind down routine, there would

[00:31:56] stay to sleep or be improved. If you improve

[00:31:58] your sleep schedule to meet your body's

[00:32:00] natural rhythm both of those stages

[00:32:02] or both of the stages will improve

[00:32:04] it's hard to pull out

[00:32:06] them individually to improve. Now

[00:32:08] things can impact

[00:32:10] them more so

[00:32:12] those two stages so for example

[00:32:14] if you were using sleeping pills or you're using alcohol to get to sleep

[00:32:18] that's more like to impact REM sleep

[00:32:20] so REM sleep the reason that REM sleep is important is that's where we

[00:32:24] emotionally recover. That's where our body goes to

[00:32:26] it overnight counseling session

[00:32:28] so that's where REM sleep is important

[00:32:30] deep sleep is more about physical recoveries

[00:32:32] where with growth hormones produced

[00:32:34] and in the middle what some trackers call core sleep

[00:32:36] might be called stage one and stage two sleep

[00:32:38] we don't know that's connecting sleep

[00:32:40] and that makes up about 60% of our sleep

[00:32:42] deep sleep roughly with one about 20%

[00:32:44] REM sleep roughly one

[00:32:46] 20%

[00:32:48] it's an individual to you so some people

[00:32:50] do just literally need a bit more a bit more

[00:32:52] REM sleep some people naturally might need a bit more deep sleep

[00:32:54] might need a bit less it's not

[00:32:56] it's more and I think which track is the

[00:32:58] the thing I hope trying to people look at is trends

[00:33:00] not night by night data

[00:33:02] what's your sort of re-week data looking like

[00:33:04] rather than

[00:33:06] competitive previous three weeks

[00:33:08] rather than what's tonight because tonight is

[00:33:10] a problem when we go oh god

[00:33:12] I failed I failed

[00:33:14] and I think again really using

[00:33:16] data like that so there's

[00:33:18] so again it is interesting

[00:33:20] that day with your data look

[00:33:22] look okay to me

[00:33:24] couple of inches is nice

[00:33:26] that would be poor but

[00:33:28] that could just be accuracy

[00:33:30] it might in my lab here

[00:33:32] man up man down is sponsored by well doing

[00:33:34] there's someone who has seen a counselor

[00:33:36] for a number of years i think their approach is great

[00:33:38] they want you to find the mental health professional

[00:33:40] who is right for you

[00:33:42] you can filter your search to highlight therapists

[00:33:44] with expertise where you need it

[00:33:46] but you can pay to use their personalized

[00:33:48] matching service

[00:33:50] the people who run well doing are experts in mental well being

[00:33:52] and they also have loads of posts

[00:33:54] and interviews

[00:33:56] to keep your mental health in good shape

[00:33:58] take a look at well doing the blog

[00:34:00] I mean well there's a couple of things

[00:34:02] that well A are found incredibly

[00:34:04] liberating and that's that 90 meter window

[00:34:06] because I guess I've become

[00:34:08] obsessed with the fact that

[00:34:10] I've got to be embedded a certain time

[00:34:12] and I've got to be asleep by a certain time

[00:34:14] so yeah you know it's like oh well actually

[00:34:16] and you know and the fact

[00:34:18] I mean i'm almost sort of thinking

[00:34:20] I might just start taking my watch off at night

[00:34:22] and you know and not recording the data

[00:34:24] and as you say sort of just go on how

[00:34:26] I feel

[00:34:28] and I saw yourself

[00:34:30] self identity

[00:34:32] I think as I said I've been involved in

[00:34:34] developing trackers and when I do

[00:34:36] I do sleep worse because it becomes

[00:34:38] sleep becomes

[00:34:40] too important then yeah

[00:34:42] well it's a metric that you've got to achieve isn't it

[00:34:44] but yeah I mean like the other things

[00:34:46] that I just wanted to ask

[00:34:48] I mean you sort of spoke about

[00:34:50] sort of like even

[00:34:52] evening reading

[00:34:54] and I'm like

[00:34:56] I'm not going to say

[00:34:58] I'm not going to say

[00:35:00] I'm not going to say in a day

[00:35:02] so I'm really going to say

[00:35:04] sort of like even

[00:35:06] evening routines

[00:35:08] I mean from my sort

[00:35:10] of experience

[00:35:12] that you know

[00:35:14] for me

[00:35:16] best night sleep

[00:35:18] would be

[00:35:20] some exercise

[00:35:22] sort of

[00:35:26] by lunchtime

[00:35:28] you know early afternoon

[00:35:29] getting out

[00:35:30] bit of sunlight. So I mean, I guess what my question is, and you sort of talked about

[00:35:36] TV because, you know, I'm, I love TV. I watch a lot of TV. And, you know, and often think

[00:35:42] oh, well, I should be turning a TV off at nine, having a read. And then, you know, obviously

[00:35:49] by 10. So, you know, what? Well, hey, I mean, I was like, oh, it's quite nice to know that

[00:35:55] actually I can watch TV before bed. But, um, I mean, I guess, I guess my question is, you know,

[00:36:01] we hear a lot about like blue screen time and, um, I mean, like one of the things I heard from

[00:36:10] another sleep expert was that, you know, it's sort of that hour of screen time before you go to bed

[00:36:19] is completely irrelevant because it is, you know, sort of how much sunlight. So,

[00:36:25] is there a perfect routine or is it entirely down to the individual? So perfectionism is the

[00:36:32] enemy of sleep. So there's not perfect routine. There's a routine that's right for you.

[00:36:36] It's pretty much different to me. So a lot of a lot of advice on this is based on data set at one

[00:36:42] and is the person not in the advise on what they like to do. So I would say the blue light we can

[00:36:47] they've got to explain it's right. Blue light research, we did think it was in terms of

[00:36:50] circadian rhythm. There's lots and lots of people saying glasses to help you. It's a plus

[00:36:56] thing about it. The blue light off your phone, you hold your phone at 4 centimeters gives us 40

[00:37:00] looks. So I use natural light boxes for shift workers or like sports people have to get up there

[00:37:06] like if I'm working with teenagers who are divers or swimmers. They give up about 10,000 looks at

[00:37:10] 50 centimeters. Your phone gives us 40 looks at 40 centimeters. The light box is there to mimic

[00:37:15] the sun. Your phone is on the sun. So there's a lot of light you say, so if you're getting

[00:37:19] natural daylight in the day early in the day, let's slightly have an impact but it doesn't really have

[00:37:24] any impact. The issue with devices is more the choices we make about what we're doing on them.

[00:37:27] We're looking at working emails in the hour before bed that's going to be a problem. If we are

[00:37:31] on social media looking at what someone from school has been up to and you hated them at school

[00:37:36] that's creating anger that is not going to help you fall asleep. If you are if you are a football

[00:37:40] father you're watching football your team before bed. The adrenaline and the and the

[00:37:46] and the thought processes will not be conducive to sleep. So it's about the choice of that. So

[00:37:50] if you're watching content comedy, repetitiveness, trash TV is brilliant, drama, the news,

[00:37:57] question time is not it. It's sort of that simple but the routine has to be the right time for

[00:38:04] your body's actual rhythm that's easier and it has to be you know what they would say is get

[00:38:10] dressed as you start your routine because sleep is a feeling not time. So if you feel sleepy

[00:38:15] as you're winding down with the bed, well the biggest mistakes that I've as makings will be on

[00:38:19] the sofa and we'll think I'll go to bed and then we'll start doing stuff. We will go and let

[00:38:23] the pets out, we will go and make sure the dishwasher is being packed. We'll look at it if the

[00:38:27] clothes are clean for the kids, we'll go upstairs or brush his teeth, we'll go in the bedroom,

[00:38:31] we'll get just a bed, we'll get into bed. To enough to lie, like we're calling it sleep,

[00:38:35] but I feel awake now and your body's screaming that you're going, you were sleeping 20 minutes ago

[00:38:39] and now you've now you started doing wake up stuff, I gave you cortisol, I gave you adrenaline

[00:38:44] and now you want to go to sleep, make your mind no cock or so, I do not know what you are doing

[00:38:49] and this is what we do to our bodies. If I listen to your body, your body will tell you when

[00:38:52] you're sleeping and go to sleep. So I think I think that's one of the, I think for me,

[00:38:56] you're probably experiencing that you have consistency because you've quite a consistent wake-up

[00:39:01] time, so consistent wake-up time drives consistency time because it drives asleep happy times,

[00:39:05] it drives that sleep drive, that sleep pressure, it goes up during the day and as you get

[00:39:10] to all the bed time and you have everything to do. Now even if you have a consistent soul like

[00:39:14] you, look I would say, you have a bit of sleep deprivation I would say and I would say that means

[00:39:18] going to sleep is easy but you still should be winding down because if you, even if you,

[00:39:25] if you fall asleep at 10 every night but you've spent an hour before hand winding down for

[00:39:29] play, your quality of sleep will be better. Your last less light to wake up at 9 in the morning.

[00:39:33] So if you've got a decision to make, I've worked late so you've worked till half night but I want

[00:39:38] to be bed for 10, you are better off giving yourself an extra half an hour, extra 45 minutes of

[00:39:43] wind down because then your quality will be better and that extra 45 minutes, that 45 minutes of

[00:39:52] sleep might mean you don't wake up at 3 in the morning and will mean that you get better quality sleep

[00:39:57] so sometimes less is more in terms of duration to improve quality and that's what we just

[00:40:02] got back with David, that's the rigidity that we would want to have. That's interesting, I mean

[00:40:07] there are a few points and so one thing is for me as well if I want to relax, you know, and if I say

[00:40:13] if I let myself relax, I can sit in front of the TV, I don't know it, let's say 6, 7 o'clock at

[00:40:18] now, I need to watch TV and not someone, I don't tend to work late, right? I'm not working

[00:40:23] up to bed so I'm going to sleep. But if I'm sitting in front of the TV at 7 o'clock, I seem to just fall

[00:40:29] asleep and my watch thinks oh, focus is sleep and then he's awake again between 9 and 10 because

[00:40:36] you know, I'm waking up, going upstairs but then at 10 o'clock I'm gone again, right? So

[00:40:42] if you say you're probably right, I mean obviously you're an expert, you are right,

[00:40:45] that there's sleep difference somewhere. And then I think to me, the story, your story is,

[00:40:52] it's like, your story is about sleep difference and the other thing that was interesting

[00:40:57] your data is so you're having less deep sleep than probably I would like you to. I think

[00:41:02] particularly you do a lot of exercise because deep sleep is where you physically recover and often

[00:41:06] napping gives you that energy boost but there is some issues that napping could affect sleep at

[00:41:11] night and particularly deep sleep. So though you sleep deprived, it could be the nap could be

[00:41:18] affecting the deep sleep or really the sleep deprivation's affected it because you're just sort of

[00:41:23] like you're zonkin, you're not wound like you see, you don't need to wind down so it's 7,

[00:41:27] you're already going, you're not maybe you're trying to stay awake, that the whole

[00:41:33] moment was to stay awake, gradually and caught is all there in your system, you're going to sleep

[00:41:37] and there a little bit and the there is you go to sleep so the deep sleep is less likely to come

[00:41:41] or the other thing is the track is inaccurate and you're having a lot of deep sleep because we did

[00:41:45] look, we looked historically and actually, historically you deep sleep is okay and it's better than

[00:41:50] what we were seeing. So we were seeing an average maybe like so one week you had 11% one week you

[00:41:56] had 10% and then the other week you had 3, you're probably looking at your data more historically

[00:42:01] it's probably between 10 and 15 and one thing we did see your data, you had more REM sleep

[00:42:06] you should have about 30% REM sleep in the three week period but looking historically it was more

[00:42:11] around 20 so one thing about more REM sleep doesn't necessarily mean it's better as we talk

[00:42:16] about REM sleep is a stage of sleep where you have an overnight counseling session, very more REM sleep

[00:42:21] and it's not your normal trend that might indicate the some sort of emotional issues might be a bit of

[00:42:26] stress. You know, very likely and he's noticing you got to do something about it but I think contextualising

[00:42:32] that REM sleep increase, you know what he's coming from and if you're and and you maybe then

[00:42:38] you're having less deep sleep and more REM sleep I'm feeling wind down might be an issue here

[00:42:43] and that might be something to look at. If I'm sleep deprived can you catch up with that? So does it

[00:42:50] work for me or for anyone who's sleep deprived right? To say okay it's a weekend, I've got to have

[00:42:56] a lion until seven so seven to me is a lion right? You know for others we've got like what? Seven

[00:43:03] it's you know it's it's possible to catch up with sleep because they're some theories of their

[00:43:08] yeah yes but not how you think it's if you don't have a sleep debt where you can catch up with

[00:43:12] the weekends, you can go and play you can pay that debt off but if you if you've not met your

[00:43:16] sleep need you don't have a quality or quantity your your body will try and give you better sleep

[00:43:20] the next night. The best thing for good night sleep tonight is actually a bad night sleep last night

[00:43:25] because because your sleep's an instinct you need sleep you'll die without sleep you'd food water

[00:43:29] and sleep to live so your body will try and give you better sleep, better quality sleep and

[00:43:34] and a bit more sleep but what your body also like is consistency the whole thing that is good

[00:43:39] about your sleep all because the consistency because your body it drives that sleep pressure nicely

[00:43:45] but also if you have so you have six hours in the week seven hours in the week and you have 10 at the

[00:43:50] weekend your brain has embodied lots of things to do during sleep and if you do with it in the week

[00:43:55] do have about six hours to do them in seven hours to do them in you've done them you had another

[00:44:01] two or three hours on at the end it's it's junk sleep he's poor quality sleep but what it is

[00:44:06] doing is putting your major organs into shut down mode for longer and that can cause some there was

[00:44:11] there was a piece of research that looked at two groups of people one group had six weeks and

[00:44:15] so sorry if I'd five hours for six weeks your group had five in the week and 10 at the weekend

[00:44:20] the five and ten group significantly more sleep as this all I could decrease in the efficiency of

[00:44:26] their liver and kidney function and the hypothesis that they were in shut down mode for too long because

[00:44:32] the weekend if you do if people do do that have that lying they will often feel more

[00:44:37] orthodic in the weekend because because their body's been in shut down mode for longer now if you

[00:44:42] sleep well and you have a lying that's not a problem and my wife says I have to put this into my

[00:44:47] toes because she's a good sleeper brilliant as all poor sleepers I was attracted to her because

[00:44:52] they're good sleep genes and she lies in it weekend just a cup of tea before bed she does lots of

[00:44:56] things wrong but sleep is fine and therefore she's not my problem a lie is all right more than an hour

[00:45:02] and a half two hours you're going to start having a problem it'll affect your body's ability to get

[00:45:07] the most out of it sleep so I would say yes you can catch up on it but you won't be aware of it

[00:45:12] probably your body will be trying to use best but you need to switch your brain off so the night after

[00:45:17] is we've been away in her poor night sleep the night after I will be more focused on my wind down

[00:45:22] to ensure that the sleep I get is as good quality as possible might be an off an hour more an hour more

[00:45:28] but is that quality I'm looking for to to to to invert a comma's catch up no it's these sorts of

[00:45:35] things that we're trying we always try to spell and and I'll be stunned and that's my work with

[00:45:39] this on the podcast or whether it's on with kip me this is the stuff right if we can get better

[00:45:44] understanding around this stuff people can get more out of the sleep they're getting so so around

[00:45:49] to the under topic what is and and I think I know the answer but what is the ideal amount of sleep

[00:45:55] I mean I on average get about I don't know six six hours four T seven hours right so so over the

[00:46:01] year probably with all of the days I probably get seven hours right yeah is seven hours enough

[00:46:06] or does it really depend by person because I think the person is the person right yeah

[00:46:11] yeah it's hard time falling asleep once she's awake she can't go back to sleep but she she sleeps

[00:46:15] for the nation right so you know I mean kids are teenagers that's different but yeah so it's

[00:46:21] all individual I think I think if you if you're getting less than six and a half six hours

[00:46:27] you probably go to school to meet your sleep need if you're getting more than nine or ten and you're

[00:46:32] not only athlete there's maybe under lying health issue there because you can have too much sleep

[00:46:36] I would but that I think this is why I always focus on how you feel rather number because it's

[00:46:41] have I met my sleep need the answer is in those three questions I'll be with you for sleep

[00:46:46] how many times we can then I how'd you feel it tell of the morning if if that's that's how

[00:46:50] you answer it and I think that is that there's not a magic number and I think one of the biggest

[00:46:55] drivers of my work is the idea that if you have less than seven hours sleep you're going to die

[00:46:59] there's a book called Why We Sleep by my friend we've been through this custody hour

[00:47:02] yeah our our pre-tort they would be vulcate and that book tells these things the data show

[00:47:06] is it that data is not you that data is based on a general population data and it's it's it's

[00:47:12] it's your day day in earlier is not necessarily the so many factors that can go into your day in

[00:47:17] earlier to try and say sleep is the what on it's like with with breastfeeding with with babies

[00:47:23] some people trying to look at some research and go breastfeeding means your kid will be clever

[00:47:27] 15 and we'll sleep better and things like that we that we can't we can't we can't

[00:47:32] take that little piece of input and claim all the benefits that would maybe seem the data so

[00:47:38] I think sleep need is individual so like I say I don't know if you have a number I have like

[00:47:42] six and a half to probably seven and a half hours consistent going to be the right time for me

[00:47:46] waking up at the right time for me within my winter's opportunity that that what I used to have is

[00:47:51] I need it I was sleep I need it I need it and and if I don't get it I'm gonna be awful

[00:47:56] why I sleep better now I sleep better than 43 that did it at 20 in my 20s you're supposed to sleep

[00:48:02] worse in mid-late the research shows it but I've understood myself so well allow that

[00:48:08] poor night sleep doesn't affect me my my my my relationship with my sleep going forward

[00:48:13] and that's what we're trying to achieve one night a bad sleep shouldn't affect your relationship

[00:48:17] with sleep going forward that that that that's what we want and if you know how much sleep you need

[00:48:22] and you're getting close to it I have a window so I'd say for you Valkyrie I'd like you to

[00:48:27] maybe get a little bit more and you're quite similar to a lot of the CEOs and people who

[00:48:31] have come to me as I work with they will say James excises and is a non is a non-negotiable I've

[00:48:38] got to excise in after the morning yeah and I'll make the point that you could live for 10 you

[00:48:42] get excised 10 days you'd be fine if you sleep for 10 days you die I'm no one's mom I'm

[00:48:48] going to tell you what to do but understand where sleep fixing to your well-being food water

[00:48:54] air and sleep excise not in that in that you won't die if you don't excise oh I mean there's quite a

[00:49:00] few things I've gone to the comeback too but I mean for me you know if I go more than a few days

[00:49:08] without excise it destroys my mental health I don't sleep as well you know so just so those

[00:49:14] things are true definitely the research is unequivocal exercise improves sleep that you couldn't

[00:49:22] you couldn't there's no there's no research that doesn't too close to bedtime like I think you

[00:49:26] but you're both taught to be excise in the right frame that it needs to be early in the day and

[00:49:32] that can be up to maybe five five seven o'clock depending on your sleep type if you're a lot

[00:49:36] excise in early is better I'll maybe be a bit later is better because your body's more ready for

[00:49:41] it so I'm not saying it's not important I'm just saying if you are if you are making if you're

[00:49:47] prior if you're making a choice of I will have less sleep to exercise on a regular basis

[00:49:54] you've got to accept that that you may be going to have that little bit of sleep deprivation

[00:49:57] and that is that's where I'm not anyone's mum I challenge you to smell on my face

[00:50:03] but you are you are entitled to make your own decisions that that is my view on it

[00:50:08] I've said a question around you sort of saying about you know the point of REM sleep is to well

[00:50:15] a counseling session as you described it are there any studies sort of correlating between

[00:50:24] people that are perhaps more naturally stressed and they're REM sleep and also I mean is there a

[00:50:32] way to sort of trigger REM sleep so then which is then shown to you know reduce well the people

[00:50:41] that suffer from severe anxiety and stuff so with REM sleep if we try to improve that is

[00:50:47] it's taking away the things that make it worse so it would be don't you know alcohol affects

[00:50:51] REM sleep significantly sleeping pills affect REM sleep significantly not meeting your sleep

[00:50:56] needing terms of duration and quality effects so if you don't sleep well often the bit of sleep

[00:51:00] you miss is REM sleep because because you're sleeping short or you're not giving me so deep sleep

[00:51:05] early in the night REM sleep sleep in the night deep sleep is harder to where you're up from REM sleep

[00:51:10] is quite easy to where you're off from deep sleep you still dream you don't remember REM sleep you

[00:51:15] you can still you can still you're more as you remember your dreams you basically the people who

[00:51:19] remember dreams is because they wake up close to the dream might be scary might be sexy that they're

[00:51:25] the dreams we remember deep sleep so there's a magical physical power somnus like sleep walking

[00:51:30] sleep talking sleep eating sleep driving what if bubbles would hit them on the sleep sex somnia

[00:51:35] where people could have sex in the sleep and they can kind of occurring both stages but indeed

[00:51:40] sleep you don't know you don't know you're doing it so if you were with your kids if you ever had

[00:51:44] that thing with their when they were young with their night timbers and they're spraying up streaming

[00:51:48] looking strength through year and in morning you say what were you doing last night like what are you all

[00:51:52] about are we doing nothing where REM sleep you generally aware of you're acting out a dream or you're

[00:51:59] acting out and REM sleep it happens because during REM sleep we're penalized to stop as acting out

[00:52:05] dreams but but some people they're still asleep one part of brain still sleep but the bit the

[00:52:08] paralysis switches off that's that's sleep walking sleep talking sleep eating sleep falling

[00:52:13] the opposite of that sleep paralysis where you where you can't move but you awake and often you'll

[00:52:18] then you'll then hallucinate something to do if your brain to work out why can't I move so he could

[00:52:23] be like a figure living over here I believe most those sightings are REM sleep disorders where

[00:52:28] your body's trying to work out what's happening here so REM sleep is more about taking away the

[00:52:35] things that that that making worse with REM sleep and and stress anxiety there's correlations between

[00:52:44] lack of REM sleep makes you more stressed anxious there's correlations that people with just

[00:52:48] the anxious more of all I to to suffer from REM sleep disorders it's like there was some piece of

[00:52:54] research around organizations where what you found is people actually most well actually lose

[00:52:58] a temper a work if they're not not not not slept well and that's about them so we know it you know

[00:53:04] if you're not slept well you're thinking someone probably say my wife my wife certainly knows when

[00:53:10] I've not slept well and me and my wife worked together we met working together and I was she's a

[00:53:17] product head of product and I'm a I was a product that she was working on and and people used to say

[00:53:23] is James James slept well last night because what the asking is coming on to those bad news

[00:53:28] always gonna start swearing it is and I'm now with that but I I I didn't really recognise that

[00:53:32] lack of emotional regulation was really strongly connected to my sleep and it comes from

[00:53:38] the lack of REM sleep I mean we're getting very close to the end I just said one more question

[00:53:46] I mean it's just around caffeine like I guess I kind of know the answer again but it's an individual

[00:53:52] thing but it you know for me well you know like I sort of said I'm just gonna have a quick coffee

[00:53:58] before we got going but you know I I certainly wouldn't drink a coffee you know 12 o'clock is

[00:54:05] like my cut off and and that's pushing it you know like I try not have any caffeine after 11

[00:54:12] in the morning I mean and again I thought it was like an old people's thing because like my step

[00:54:17] dad will have a coffee literally before he goes to bed and like my in laws will have a cup of tea

[00:54:23] but then off there's someone that I work with and and he's the same he's like yeah I can have a coffee

[00:54:28] and then go to bed so we all but have a nice coffee different way coffee different ways

[00:54:33] the reason actually you can get a test for it and you can see what you can be that multiple

[00:54:36] rate of caffeine is and it is that so out one of the players falls of work with an Italian

[00:54:40] you'd have a special before bed people get really really concerned about that in the club

[00:54:45] but you sleep on I and what about that cup of well that's basically what it did for me

[00:54:49] it was a reminder of home it was like a little cuddle my wife had said to complete before before

[00:54:54] bed she's fun bars that's what we're doing south you all share we we her cup of tea is very connected

[00:54:59] to our culture she just she used to have it as she was little and and she's she sleeps well so I've

[00:55:05] not I've not got really a problem with it and I think he's he's that but again you know if you

[00:55:09] want a coffee lay and you know it'll fit your sleep that's the decision you can make you an adult

[00:55:13] if you like sometimes I'll have a Coca-Cola at seven in the evening I know I'll be up at three by

[00:55:18] doing it because caffeine doesn't just stop me going to sleep if you're still going to stay asleep

[00:55:21] caffeine can be an issue I'll have a juilless of coke I'm a bit of a rock em'ol you know let's

[00:55:27] let's have a caffeine late and but sometimes I want so so it is yeah it's it's it's it's it's

[00:55:33] the decisions the caffeine we get more sensitive we get older we have a different metabolic rate

[00:55:37] work out your metabolic rate but I'll say this I've never met anyone who suffers from

[00:55:40] insomnia it's cured there's some nearby by cutting out caffeine it isn't it isn't it's not

[00:55:45] helpful but he's not it's not good enough it's not the golden bullet it's not the one why not

[00:55:50] because there is no one thing for most people it's a it's a it's a collection of little things

[00:55:55] that you've got to try and work out what what they are now caffeine I gave up caffeine

[00:56:01] three years ago now so I don't take any caffeine however it used to be so so used to caffeine I

[00:56:07] could have an espresso double espresso and go up to sleep like that I almost slept better after

[00:56:13] cup of coffee because I was so used to caffeine I mean yeah you're in again you know correct me

[00:56:18] you know because crashing it you know a crash as well so well often often if you're napping having

[00:56:23] a shot of caffeine as you go to nap works really well because you get that double hit of the nap

[00:56:27] energy and the caffeine energy the thing with caffeine is if you're looking at performance in

[00:56:31] biomein the research again he's quite clear that after about eight weeks of taking caffeine your

[00:56:35] body becomes quite immune to it in terms of increasing performance and but yet every single sports

[00:56:42] clubs individually I've worked with will take caffeine as part of their stimulus for a game

[00:56:48] and they said basically I'd argue based on based on what the research is telling us

[00:56:53] but people will still tick it and I I have never been successful in getting sports clubs to

[00:56:59] sort of put back on the caffeine as a stimulant for the game it's just it's just embedded in

[00:57:05] the culture it's been in agriculture it's not it's a bit like blue screens yeah there it's more

[00:57:10] sort of blue screens because there is caffeine stops the body's ability to fall asleep it blocks

[00:57:15] the process of falling asleep but how quickly you metabolize it is different and for some people

[00:57:20] basically my wife sleep genes are so strong she can know it now on that basis I was what

[00:57:26] this will be probably too important to finish on but we call poor sleep as normal human behavior

[00:57:31] what we call poor sleep you're supposed to not sleep when you're stressed if you if you could

[00:57:36] fall asleep when you were stressed you get you know what eating by a seabed to tiger so when

[00:57:40] when when when I'd argue good sleep is there normally that actually my wife's ancestors was saved

[00:57:45] by a poor sleep probably my ancestors and the when I patry to get away from the seabed to

[00:57:51] tiger it's it's we need to stop no seeing seeing sleep in that way that as poor sleepers

[00:57:58] we are we are finely tuned humans who who are but we just need to convince ourselves that we're

[00:58:03] not stressed you know we need to stop leaning the middle of night we need to feel safe and secure

[00:58:07] physically and emotionally and if you are poor sleeper now you are brilliant at being tired

[00:58:12] generally so you will have a story of a time you slept really poorly and performed amazingly with

[00:58:17] my sports people we have this this is one of those common conversations I have when they're going

[00:58:21] I need sleeping pills right after a game and I'm saying you don't you just need to get the best

[00:58:24] sleep you can and they're good but I'll be awful to bother again to tell them to five times that

[00:58:30] you you have poor sleeper performed amazingly and they can do 15 they can do 20 and in east

[00:58:35] that that's the stories we need to tell us of a lot of poor sleep comes from mindset and the stories

[00:58:41] we've created around our poor sleep and if we change the story we will change the performance of

[00:58:46] us sleep I'm sure there was an incident where an England game got cooled off like right at the last

[00:58:53] minute and they're all taken there caffeine so then they were to have sleeping pills and then

[00:59:00] when the game was rescheduled for the next day and oh yeah Luke pants because they were all

[00:59:06] and sleep you know like alcohol sleeping pills don't give you recovery sleep they give you

[00:59:10] sedation so when picked away like the last time so for Andy Lee Ali where he was taking sleep

[00:59:15] he pills if you're addicted to them the saddest thing about that is that actually sleeping pills

[00:59:18] were even helping him sleep and sleeping pills particularly affect REM sleep and he was

[00:59:22] suffering from trauma and the part of REM sleep is to help work through trauma so he wasn't

[00:59:27] getting the REM sleep to work through trauma he thought he was getting sleep but he wasn't and

[00:59:31] he should not anyone's fault in football the doctors are told in their training sleeping pills

[00:59:35] help sleep the doctors have no other tool they're in the NHS the doctors have no other tool to give

[00:59:39] you really apart from sleeping pills or a digital CBA one of the problems we have with sleeping

[00:59:45] at the moment we've just gone through the clock's changing and sleep experts are obsessed with

[00:59:49] we should be on standard time and that is important because it's more like that bodies circadian

[00:59:52] with them but there are far bigger issues with the sleepiness in this country and globally

[00:59:57] teenagers going to school too early 1.6 million people in the UK have undagnosed sleep apnea

[01:00:01] we should be breathing this order we should limit sure life and and and we don't have access

[01:00:06] to good quality sleep support within our public health care systems or even our private health

[01:00:11] care systems in the UK there are the issues we need to solve we know we should be so uneducated

[01:00:16] around sleep but we are because because no one's educating us and if you couldn't breathe

[01:00:22] you'll be in hospital like that if you couldn't absorb nutrition you'd be hospital like that

[01:00:27] if you can't sleep it's public as she getting older that's what you get from medical professionals

[01:00:32] and that's what needs to change but we also have some part in this we need to understand

[01:00:36] ourselves better we need to take responsibility for the things that we are doing that maybe our

[01:00:40] impact's asleep and if we are doing those things we're not sleeping well then we can't really

[01:00:47] so i have two more questions as well before with my round of thought there was one question

[01:00:51] it's maybe a short one but i was told horse hair mattresses as a best mattresses ever

[01:00:58] it's i mean this from memory are they 10 000 pound each or something or that is it true

[01:01:04] so i'm laughing i'm actually like anything else to sleep what's right for you now

[01:01:08] mattress mattresses for two two categories technical and luxury horse hair is luxury i'd say

[01:01:14] luxury is more like is more about a flex than it is held a gold plated spring is not good at

[01:01:22] help you're sleeping anyway but you can tell your mates about it you need the mattresses right

[01:01:27] if you now baby married mattresses you've got two people sleeping on them one person like

[01:01:31] i'm blobby men are blused generally blobby with blobs we're with sick we ain't got more shake to

[01:01:35] body we're big blobby blobby blobsons we mean they've got more shake to body they've got curves

[01:01:39] and they've got like curves in the spines things so i've got broad shoulders and no real curve to my

[01:01:44] spine my wife's got narrow shoulders and a curve to her and a curve to her spine i need firmness here

[01:01:50] so i need softness here and firmness here she needs firmness here and softness in her hips you buy one

[01:01:54] mattress that often doesn't doesn't give that so it's interesting i am in the moment we we're

[01:01:58] creating some products for kip mate and what the problem we're trying to solve is that problem

[01:02:02] one mattress that supports two people we have found a solution but it's a mattress that is right for

[01:02:07] you and it's not about how much it's about easy right for you so no horse is no better than wool

[01:02:14] from cashmere that has been on the outer head bidis and there's three of them and someone's

[01:02:19] had to arm wrestle the animal into shame in it it doesn't make any difference easily yeah i mean

[01:02:24] it's interesting because i mean German efficiency my parents have a bed a double bed by the

[01:02:30] half individual mattresses individual doobase so they can you know germany's up in that case yeah

[01:02:36] your up is far better and the solution i've found to the problem that i've just described comes from

[01:02:41] germany it seems as a spring and that's because German you know up generally Germany in particular

[01:02:50] understand sleep better if you go to Scandinavia they understand sleep better because they're

[01:02:54] they're quiet they're they're light levels one part of the year is it's light on your

[01:02:58] mouth and the you can't sleep other parts dark on your mouth you can't wake up you've got to

[01:03:02] get your sleep right in that environment that's so their horse hair eats about you and if anyone has

[01:03:08] it always a question about products i want social media at the sleep geek ask me questions because

[01:03:13] a lot of this stuff around products at the moment there's a lot of state clear around products

[01:03:17] and then 100% of it you need a proper pillow so we invested in in in next support

[01:03:21] yeah perfect and the last question I have is where can people find out more about

[01:03:26] so i'll give you by so i as i said i am a sleep geek i'm on social media as a sleep geek

[01:03:31] so you just search for at the sleep geek on most of your and your favorite social media channel

[01:03:35] you can find out more about my work at the sleep geek.co.uk where we have we have information

[01:03:40] about the companies that i work with including a much well the country's biggest mattress

[01:03:44] retailers that i'm training their staff to link product to problem to help people make better

[01:03:49] buying decisions around around this stuff so that that's coming called mattress online kitmate

[01:03:53] kitmate.com where you can find out about our corporate work with organizations and sports teams

[01:03:57] but also access to sort your kit these old tools and i have you said that i have a real podcast

[01:04:03] favorite podcast app apple Spotify taking the stress out of sleep and my whole approach to sleep is

[01:04:09] that if we take the stress out of sleep we start to sleep better you know i've worked with hundreds

[01:04:14] of it i would either have worked with more poor sleep as it anybody else in this country and maybe

[01:04:18] the world and what i've learned over the last sort of 10 years doing this sort of thing you take

[01:04:23] this just out of eight people sleep better that that's it find find their issue find the tools and

[01:04:28] tips that will solve their issue people sleep better i'm not producing perfect but i can promise

[01:04:32] better brilliant thank you so much it's about lunch time so it's time for my 20 minute nap

[01:04:38] so thank you so much for you know for for for you know if i say analyzing all asleep and then

[01:04:43] hopefully answering lots of questions you know from the podcast guest and yeah i mean if we perhaps

[01:04:48] could do another one and we get our listeners to send in their questions look sorry you also

[01:04:54] said that you you would like the sleep expert on radio one as well yes i do live ads on radio one

[01:04:59] i'm there sleepy out i appear from time time on your TV on on a on a on a on a TV

[01:05:04] breakfast this morning's desk pat lunch i do things like that helping people sleep better

[01:05:08] i will wish everyone to sleep well i'll also give it a little disclaimer for you too you might

[01:05:14] sleep worse tonight because you're thinking what did he say actually this is published so if

[01:05:20] you lose if you're listening to this two three nights in your sleep better first night you

[01:05:25] would think in that sleep expert but no nothing but i do and it does come eventually it's finally

[01:05:31] night and red wine will not melt i have no charge i've got a good uh but you won't get your

[01:05:36] REM sleep that's anyway sleep well by Chloe boss James

[01:05:43] thanks for listening to this week's episode feel free to reach out to folka or David via our website

[01:05:49] www.manupdown.com or podcast at manupdown.com with any feedback or to let us know what topics you'd

[01:05:57] like us to cover in the future here you again soon