The coach with the Spider Tattoo

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Man Up Man Down podcast presented by Volker Balluda and David Pawsey.

[00:00:12] We discuss the pressures and challenges faced by men approaching middle age that we're

[00:00:16] often too embarrassed to speak about with our friends.

[00:00:20] You can find us online at www.manupdown.com

[00:00:26] Enjoy the show and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review.

[00:00:34] So welcome to another episode of Man Up Man Down. I'm very honored and very excited actually.

[00:00:39] I don't often get nervous interviewing people but we welcome Jerry Colona on the podcast.

[00:00:47] So I've known off Jerry as a coach with the Spyder tattoo so he was on Tim Ferriss's podcast

[00:00:54] that we just established it was in 2019 and Ian Saunders who was on our podcast previously

[00:01:01] and he will also be coming back is a friend of Jerry's and I noticed that on LinkedIn I'm like

[00:01:06] is there a chance for an intro? It's like you know one of the few heroes I have in life.

[00:01:13] So Jerry great to have you on the podcast. In form of an introduction let me read out

[00:01:18] a little bit of an intro. So Jerry is a leading executive coach who used the skills

[00:01:24] he learned as a venture capitalist to help entrepreneurs. He's a co-founder and CEO of

[00:01:29] Reboot the executive coaching and leadership development company host of the Reboot podcast

[00:01:35] and also of two books Reunion Leadership and the Longing to Belong and Reboot Leadership

[00:01:41] and the Art of Growing Up. He draws on his wide variety of experience to help clients

[00:01:46] design a more conscious life and make needed changes to the career to improve

[00:01:50] their performance and satisfaction. Previously he was a partner with JP Morgan Partners

[00:01:57] the private equity arm of JP Morgan Chase. He joined JP Morgan Partners from Flatiron Partners

[00:02:04] which he launched in 1996 with partner Fred Wilson and Flatiron became one of the most

[00:02:10] successful early-stage investment programs in the New York City area and he now lives on

[00:02:15] a farm in Longmont Colorado. Jerry I'm so excited welcome to our podcast.

[00:02:21] Thanks for having me and listening to you read that reminds me of how old I am.

[00:02:30] 1996 oh boy that was a long time ago but anyway yes it's great to be here with you both.

[00:02:37] Thank you. In 1996 I graduated from high school just to put this.

[00:02:42] That's what I mean you see how freaking old I am.

[00:02:49] My joke when I do public talks my joke is you know I do a lot of talk

[00:02:56] talks for entrepreneurs and things like that and it's like yeah you know I invented the

[00:03:01] internet in 1994 you know when you were in middle school you know somebody raised there and it

[00:03:06] said I was in primary school. I know I mean I feel old you know if I say similar to yourself not

[00:03:15] at the same level I work you know as a coach but also work as an advisor with companies and you

[00:03:22] know some of the startups I'm gonna like you were born 20 thousand two thousand when you know I was

[00:03:28] like what yeah it's crazy it's unstoppable. So Jerry where do we want to start you want to give

[00:03:38] us an overview I mean I don't know where you want to start but you know talk about the spider tattoo

[00:03:44] I'd love to so I have in my memory that you wear on psychedelics when you found a spider.

[00:03:52] Repeat things there were no psychedelics involved.

[00:03:59] So tell me how you got to it so maybe I make that up so I'm glad we clarified.

[00:04:05] I saw focus on it to me thought he's gonna come on and talk about psychedelics.

[00:04:11] No I didn't. Yeah so just to be clear that's in psychological terms that's called wish fulfillment

[00:04:20] and you want to do psychedelics and you want to talk to a spider.

[00:04:24] Maybe I was on psychedelics. All right all right well stop laughing and make this a coherent

[00:04:33] narrative. What you're referring to is a story that I do tell in my first book Reboot but that

[00:04:44] Tim Ferriss surfaced and so and then dubbed me the coach with the spider tattoo and unfortunately

[00:04:52] or fortunately we're not recording videos so I can't show you all the tattoo but it's still

[00:04:57] I still have it right it's above my heart and I think it's relevant even to the purpose

[00:05:04] of this show in some ways because my encounter with the spider which is memorialized in the

[00:05:12] tattoo occurred as part of my midlife journey. If we teleport way back 15 16 17 years ago

[00:05:26] I was like a lot of folks in their 40s a fucking mess. I was just trying to figure out

[00:05:34] like who I was what my life was you know it followed a period of enormous external success

[00:05:44] and being as you noted an early stage venture capitalist and being very successful in the first

[00:05:52] web 1.0 iteration and then all of that came crashing down like a house of cards

[00:06:00] and the simplistic way of understanding it was that I came to understand that the internal

[00:06:07] me and the external me were crosswise with each other and so the more success I had externally

[00:06:18] the worse I actually felt which is a bit of a mind fuck isn't it because we are socialized

[00:06:24] especially in our 20s and 30s to believe that the path to happiness lays in accumulation

[00:06:33] of stuff wealth approbation affirmation look at me I just got promoted you know this like upward

[00:06:44] mobility kind of construct and as I often describe it there's a metaphor that I will use which is

[00:06:54] you know those of us on a merry go round well when they were first developed you would reach out and

[00:07:00] grab a ring and if you got a ring you could trade it in for a prize well I had the brass ring in

[00:07:07] my hand and I was still miserable okay so fast forward I then went on this profound journey

[00:07:16] of several years where I did an incredible amount of internal work I had always been in therapy

[00:07:25] especially from my early 30s I continued to be in therapy but I began a period of real seeking

[00:07:33] and that seeking included doing a retreat with a guy named Bill Plotkin from Animas Valley

[00:07:43] Institute he still does this work and it there was a I had read a book called Soulcraft which I highly

[00:07:52] recommend it's still available um and there was a soul craft retreat and so I went on this retreat

[00:08:00] a real mess not knowing who I was and what I wanted to do was my life and what the hell was

[00:08:06] going on and for context I was married I have three children they were younger than they are now

[00:08:17] and so I go on this retreat and one night we are doing what's called a trance dance

[00:08:23] so again no psychedelics involved okay okay noted but there was an out-of-body state induced

[00:08:34] simply by the act of dancing and we're dancing in a circular motion it's an indigenous dance

[00:08:41] and we are exhausted and I stumble into bed and I have this intense dream and in the dream

[00:08:52] I am driving a car with my three children to a beach house that is completely white

[00:09:00] and the kids are really excited and I am I've got this like foreboding something bad is going to

[00:09:08] happen and we get to the house and the kids run out of the car and they're super excited because

[00:09:14] they're at the beach house and I go into the basement of this house and the house is completely

[00:09:20] white and I go into the basement of this house and the floor is covered with mushrooms

[00:09:28] again it did not ingest any mushrooms that's probably where I got it from

[00:09:32] that's where you got it from yeah must have right and so as I'm looking at the mushrooms

[00:09:38] I get really afraid and I see the mushrooms as symbolic of rot in the house and again

[00:09:48] to understand dream interpretation the house is me it's the psychic house of me

[00:09:54] and instead of well the reaction I have is I pull all the mushrooms up by their roots

[00:10:01] and I scream at the kids let's get out get out get out and then I wake up

[00:10:07] the next morning after the dream I tell this dream in circle with Bill

[00:10:11] and Bill says to me leave the room go out into the forest go find those mushrooms

[00:10:20] and apologize to them

[00:10:25] and ask them what was the message that you were too afraid to hear

[00:10:31] and I leave the room and I start muttering to myself what the fuck am I doing

[00:10:36] I'm you know I'm 42 years old I'm walking in a forest looking for mushrooms to have a

[00:10:43] conversation okay as you do as you do and I look down at my feet are the exact same

[00:10:52] mushrooms that I dreamed about and I start crying and I say to the mushrooms what are you here to tell me

[00:11:05] and the mushrooms say to me go to your spot now to for context this retreat was in a forest

[00:11:15] and we each found a spot in the woods where we would spend nights in solitude

[00:11:23] so I go to my spot I'm kind of shaking I'm exhausted I have no idea what's happening to

[00:11:28] me and I sit down and you know I wrap my arms around my knees and I look over to my right

[00:11:35] and there's this glistening spider web with a spider on it and I'm like okay what the fuck

[00:11:42] is going on here and I say to the spider kind of in a surrender moment what are you here to

[00:11:48] tell me and the spider says to me you worry too much the children are going to be okay

[00:11:56] okay

[00:11:58] and I just burst into tears and so I got the tattoo to never ever forget that a I worry too much

[00:12:10] and b that my children are going to be okay

[00:12:14] and I'll bring it all the way back to midlife for me

[00:12:18] I was in a moment in time where the entire house of cards that I had constructed that defined who

[00:12:28] I was actually needed to come down and the thing that was preventing me from allowing the thing

[00:12:36] that needed to happen to happen was my projection onto my children that this was a disaster that

[00:12:47] was going to befall them he asked the way the story ends the epilogue my kids are fine

[00:12:56] they're totally fucking fine they're adults my oldest is 33 now guess what he's looking forward to

[00:13:02] right about he'll be listening to the podcast soon but the truth of that spider was I worry too much

[00:13:10] and what did I worry I worried about whether or not as a good father I wrote about this in

[00:13:18] chapter nine of reboot ultimately whether or not I was a good man

[00:13:26] right because that's what it boils down to am I a good man

[00:13:31] it's a fun thing question isn't it so now I'll shut up

[00:13:36] I mean I was just gonna say a lot of all the things to worry about how you know your children are

[00:13:46] I guess the thing you know the best thing to worry about

[00:13:51] so you know it's like well yeah who doesn't worry about their children

[00:13:57] um but then you know I guess that's almost a survival instinct isn't it protecting the next generation

[00:14:06] sure sure you can go at it from an evolutionary psychology perspective and say what am I really

[00:14:11] doing I'm protecting my DNA and yet that's not what it's about right to me in chapter nine of reboot

[00:14:22] I tell the story I open the the that chapter by by talking about coming upon this toppled over oak tree

[00:14:33] and musing that this oak tree is now at the end of its life

[00:14:39] and seeing and projecting into that oak tree a full life with branches stretched by acts of

[00:14:47] kindness and gnarls and scars in the wood resulting from selfishness

[00:14:59] not living up to aspirational values

[00:15:03] and realizing that I at the end of my days will be like that tree

[00:15:11] and that there's parts of me to celebrate there are parts of me that I am damn proud of

[00:15:20] and there are parts of me that I feel shame about

[00:15:23] and there are parts of me that wishes he could I could have done it differently

[00:15:29] but that the totality of that is a good man or a good adult

[00:15:36] because over time I grew into my purpose which is to shelter and be a service to other people

[00:15:45] including my children deep very deep I've never been accused of being shallow

[00:15:54] I can see that

[00:15:59] if I say don't think that's the wrong way it's it's a typical journey in midlife

[00:16:05] man goes through right you're getting to this stage where you have void

[00:16:10] we don't know you know what what you're doing in life is it's the right thing it's the wrong thing

[00:16:15] when you you talked earlier about you know happiness as being you know the wealth you

[00:16:20] accumulate I mean I used to have the sports car right I sold it again for for various reasons

[00:16:26] we don't need to go into detail and I got my first tattoo in midlife I got my first

[00:16:31] tattoo in 2020 my wife says I'm covered now and I'm like no I still have space on my legs

[00:16:37] so you know I'm not covered if I say these are the things we do as midlife man

[00:16:45] so you obviously had a very successful career beforehand

[00:16:49] when you found your purpose what changed

[00:16:55] well I would let's give some more context to that I think I have a very successful career

[00:17:00] after that too which is but it's a very different career and so what comes to mind is an old

[00:17:09] Buddhist aphorism which is before enlightenment chop wood carry water after enlightenment chop wood

[00:17:18] carry water before midlife chop wood carry water after midlife chop wood carry water

[00:17:28] everything's the same and everything is different

[00:17:32] and that is baffling and I think part of the experience looking back I'm now 60

[00:17:40] okay so I'm an old fuck I think part of the experience that folks have as they're entering

[00:17:49] that period of transition you know our friend Chip Conley would call it a midlife chrysalis

[00:17:58] where he describes this sort of transition part of that fear is the fear of not knowing what is

[00:18:06] happening to me and the very human tendency to want to hold on to things just as they are

[00:18:15] like if we could preserve moments in amber our children our career our highlights

[00:18:24] if we could just stay frozen

[00:18:28] then we don't have to be afraid but of course the only thing that freezes us in moment is death

[00:18:39] because otherwise everything else is change and so the fear of the uncertainty that say

[00:18:49] midlife represents is actually a fear of life unfolding exactly the way it's supposed to unfold

[00:19:03] and what I have learned and I think I'm I feel comfortable saying I'm on the other side of

[00:19:10] that transition now entering what I call elderhood the fear is just like the spider taught me the

[00:19:20] fear is that everything is going to fall apart and everything good about my life is going to disappear

[00:19:30] and I can tell you as kind of an older brother further down the path it's going to be fine

[00:19:38] hello it's folker here I hope you enjoy this episode you might not realize that I have been

[00:19:44] coaching for almost a decade through both third parties and private clients during that time

[00:19:51] I've worked with brands such as general electric imperial brands DHL and Pepsi however this year

[00:19:59] I'm putting a big emphasis on growing my private coaching practice improving lives of middle

[00:20:04] aged men in leadership positions so if you hit midlife transition point and you might be a bit

[00:20:10] stuck or looking to improve your work life balance your career or productivity you want to build a

[00:20:17] new habit where you just want to become a better version of yourself please hit me up you can reach

[00:20:23] me on folker.natus that's folker at obnat.us or LinkedIn whatever is easiest thanks and now back to the episode

[00:20:38] well I mean you sort of talked about sort of being successful in your 30s and you also said

[00:20:47] well I've had a successful career now or you know my second career has also been successful

[00:20:53] has your definition of success changed I mean this is you know a rhetorical question because I'm

[00:20:59] guessing you know you you know it's sort of when when you're younger a lot of the time success is

[00:21:06] materialism and you know money in the bank um but yeah anyway I'll let you answer the question Jerry

[00:21:14] well you you already know the answer right um and I suspect you know the answer David because

[00:21:21] you're going through that whole transformation yourself I mean why the heck do you guys do a

[00:21:26] podcast on midlife if it's not for yourselves ultimately right and yes the first stage of my

[00:21:35] career the first stage of my adulthood I would call it it's somewhat was the accumulation but

[00:21:43] as I detail quite specifically in reboot my first book it was the accumulation in order to feel safe

[00:21:55] you know I grew up uh food insecure I grew up with enormous poverty I grew up with enormous

[00:22:02] violence as a child it was a a false belief a belief fed to me by society that in order to feel

[00:22:13] safe now and forever in order to make sure that my children were safe now and forever

[00:22:19] that the accumulation of toys the accumulation of things the accumulation of status

[00:22:27] would ward off all of the bad things from happening and it was really the realization

[00:22:36] that I had the brass ring I had all the things and I still felt unsafe

[00:22:42] and then you're worrying about what have I done to my children

[00:22:46] exactly to give them yeah that's right that's right so my current definition of quote unquote

[00:22:53] success I would argue it continues to be fluid but it you know right there I'm in my New York

[00:23:02] office there's a there's a framed quote from Suzuki Roshi that says to find the meaning of your life

[00:23:11] is to find the meaning of your everyday activity now what is Suzuki Roshi saying with that what he's

[00:23:17] saying is success is not measured at the end of your life by the accumulation of toys success

[00:23:24] is measured or purpose and meaning are measured by how you feel each day and how you make the people

[00:23:31] around you feel every day which is both simplistic and profound so if you hadn't been so financially

[00:23:40] successful at an earlier age do you think is wealth does you know does that allow you to then

[00:23:51] move on to that next stage whereas if you're on you know on a bit of a treadmill you know it's like

[00:23:59] you know yeah if you're working 12 hours a day doing like manual labour which you know I don't do

[00:24:08] it's you know I mean like I sort of feel me and Volcker are in a privileged position to be able

[00:24:14] to sort of contemplate these things and it's like well actually you know some some guys don't

[00:24:20] sort of get the breath to do that almost yeah you know David I think you're you're raising a really

[00:24:26] important point and the point has to do with an inquiry into the privilege if you will that um

[00:24:38] you know I'll name it as as a white as as someone who identifies as white cisgender straight and male

[00:24:48] and the power and privilege that can come from that is it self-indulgent for example to be able to

[00:24:58] contemplate these things you're right in the sense that you know at 38 when I walked away

[00:25:04] from my career as a venture capitalist I did have enough money in the bank that for several years

[00:25:14] I did not worry about income and that is a privilege that is an expression of a systemic inequality

[00:25:22] that exists in all of our societies manifesting in different ways and that is true and there are

[00:25:35] plenty of people who did not do not experience that financial well-being who embark on these kinds

[00:25:44] of questions and there are plenty plenty of people who have far more resources than I will ever

[00:25:50] have who do not embark on these questions and so while there is a relationship it is not necessarily

[00:26:00] causative and the best example of that is we all whether it's experiencing through third parties

[00:26:09] or directly know of people who could do that inter exploration work

[00:26:20] and for whatever reason choose not to and the worst of them are those who hold power

[00:26:28] they might control for example a major social media network as well as a satellite internet

[00:26:34] access network okay who choose not to look inward and as a result spread toxicity spread the

[00:26:47] discontent and disease that is within them around the world some of them even get elected president

[00:26:56] of the united states hopefully only once may god may god hear your here's your please

[00:27:05] the the and but but but seen through the lens of what we're talking about can you see the pain

[00:27:13] and suffering that they must be experiencing which does not excuse the pain and suffering

[00:27:21] they inflict they are still responsible even though I can feel empathy for their inner turmoil

[00:27:37] my challenge to them and and this is you know turning 60 this is a thing that i'm going to

[00:27:43] spend a lot of the next few years focused on my challenge to people who are in that position

[00:27:53] is an effect going back to the first book reboot grow the fuck up get your shit together

[00:28:04] do your work so that you don't inflict damage on people around you your partners

[00:28:13] your colleagues your employees your children do your work by the way it will make you happier

[00:28:24] but you have a moral responsibility to do that work well i've got two questions

[00:28:31] I do some of the sort of the theoretical people that you mentioned

[00:28:38] um do you think there is pain there or do you think that you know then they're so

[00:28:45] unaware of themselves um but also I mean you know it's sort of we seem to be at sort of

[00:28:53] well we are like a major sort of time in history with AI digital technology etc etc

[00:29:02] then you know there's sort of people like yourselves that um trying to spread a message of hope

[00:29:09] and well taking responsibility for yourself I mean which well which way do you think

[00:29:17] it is going to go are you hopeful for the future or are you scared for the future

[00:29:24] I think there's a false dichotomy in your question

[00:29:30] one can be both frightened and hopeful

[00:29:36] let me go back to your first observation book as a Buddhist

[00:29:44] every morning I sit in meditation and I repeat

[00:29:49] part of my bodhisattva vow and to recall a bodhisattva is someone who has the

[00:29:58] propensity the potential to be enlightened to escape what's called samsara the endless

[00:30:06] cycle of suffering that is life and to not end up being reborn

[00:30:15] but chooses to take rebirth until all beings are free of suffering

[00:30:25] now implicit in the bodhisattva vow is the fundamental belief of the second noble truth

[00:30:33] which is that life is filled with suffering from the first noble truth and the hypothetical folks

[00:30:42] the archetypes that I was speaking to of course they're filled with suffering

[00:30:51] indeed I would argue that the number of true sociopaths people who have no feeling sense

[00:30:58] is actually quite rare and that's really critical and I want to acknowledge that there's a radiator

[00:31:05] making steaming noises of the sun so forgive everybody

[00:31:10] and this is really important part of the second half of your question and my response to that

[00:31:19] the recognition of the predominance of suffering does not turn me into hopeless

[00:31:29] because the second noble truth is that the closest we get the more we do to push away

[00:31:36] suffering increases suffering it's the truth of attachment the third noble truth

[00:31:42] is that there is a way out and the way out is the eightfold path and so when I think about this

[00:31:50] and this brings me in a sense to reunion my new book reunion attempts to look at the suffering

[00:32:00] caused by the divisiveness in our societies it's all of that inward radical self-inquiry

[00:32:09] that I wrote about in reboot turned outward to say for example how have I been complicit in and

[00:32:16] benefited from the conditions in the world I say I don't want to see which is a really harsh

[00:32:24] question it's a difficult question to ask and it immediately can invoke all sorts of defensiveness

[00:32:30] but the truth is that that particular kind of suffering persists for reasons

[00:32:41] and I would argue that part of the reason it persists is that those of us who have power and

[00:32:47] privilege who have not done our work unconsciously or sometimes consciously

[00:32:55] maintain the divisiveness I mean again if we want to talk about a theoretically

[00:33:06] theoretical presidential candidate in the United States okay who will use terms like vermin

[00:33:15] to describe migrants which by the way include my ancestors

[00:33:20] includes most people's ancestors in the US

[00:33:26] yeah it all right it was a refer to bloodbath as a consequence of him not getting his own way

[00:33:37] okay the maintenance of fear of the other person manifested in what the scholar John A. Powell

[00:33:44] would call systemic othering is a consequence of his not confronting his own woundedness his

[00:33:58] own brokenness now you could sort of argue well is there is there a personality disorder that

[00:34:05] structure and all that and that all may be true but the hope lies in this David the hope lies

[00:34:12] in the willingness to confront what does not work either at the individual level which arguably is

[00:34:20] what the call to midlife is all about or at the societal level and if we confront what is not

[00:34:31] working with empathy and compassion then we have a possibility of real transformation

[00:34:41] I fundamentally wholeheartedly believe that because to believe otherwise is nihilistic

[00:34:51] we might as well just build walls around each of our houses and order from food delivery

[00:34:58] services and never see each other

[00:35:03] great

[00:35:07] hope stems from empathy man up man down is sponsored by well-doing there's someone who

[00:35:14] has seen a counselor for a number of years I think their approach is great they want

[00:35:17] you to find the mental health professional who is right for you you can feel to your

[00:35:21] search to highlight therapists with expertise where you need it or you can pay to use

[00:35:25] their personalized matching service the people who run well-doing are experts in mental well-being

[00:35:31] and they also have loads of posts and interviews to keep your mental health in good shape take a look

[00:35:36] at well-doing.org I'm listening and all there are a few things I'd like to pick up on I really

[00:35:43] like how you phrased or framed I shall say midlife it's a fear of life right off off the

[00:35:52] the uncertainty and discomfort that arises at midlife is a fear of life midlife itself is not

[00:35:58] the fear of life no no sorry yeah and that this so I have several thoughts around that so one

[00:36:07] one is it explains to me and if I say we talk a lot on the podcast about you know suicide rates

[00:36:14] and men being the highest around 42 yeah because people are afraid right they they're they're anxious

[00:36:23] of what might or might not come and we always say you know if you can if you can prevent one

[00:36:28] our job is done right we can prevent one one suicide the the other thing how you framed it

[00:36:36] as well is you once it's almost and paraphrasing a little bit here but if you if you can go through

[00:36:46] midlife and and face your fears and you're in the demons right I think that's how you how you

[00:36:53] describe it as well you come out on the other end and you almost have a second life right you

[00:36:59] have a you you know whether you continue in the past you were on before but most likely

[00:37:06] on a different more fulfilling past that leads to more happiness because you're less driven by

[00:37:12] say external validation but more by by internal validation that's how I piece it together in

[00:37:20] my head but you wrote two books on it I mean which book should I read first

[00:37:29] I would read reboot first because it lays out the fundamental call to action for our own individual

[00:37:35] work and that is a basis for reunion which again takes that inner lens and points it outward

[00:37:45] but I want to go back to the way you were describing things and I think from the vantage

[00:37:54] point of where I am now I might alter a little bit and reframe a little bit of what you were saying

[00:38:01] I'm not sure first of all having having dealt with suicidal feelings two major times in my life

[00:38:09] the first time I acted upon them and I was 18 and I tried to kill myself and ended up in a hospital

[00:38:18] for three months and set me on a particular path and then the second time was at 38 which was at

[00:38:25] that period in which prior to my encounter with the spider for me it wasn't as much about the fear

[00:38:38] of what was happening as much as a kind of the french word ennui comes to mind which is this

[00:38:48] kind of deadening feeling of is that all there is that's it I've worked my ass off for this

[00:39:00] I kind of got sold a bill of goods which then spiraled me into a depression

[00:39:10] and I think that this is an important point because the other side of what we're talking about

[00:39:19] and for those who are sort of beginning this journey let me point the way a little bit to

[00:39:25] what the end of the journey looks like the end of the journey is not happiness

[00:39:32] the end of the journey is wholeness and that's an important distinction because part of the

[00:39:40] bill of goods that we are sold is if you do everything right you go to the right schools

[00:39:46] you get the right job you work really hard you do this you are going to be happy forever

[00:39:51] and ever and ever and ever and the ennui that kicks in is what the fuck

[00:39:58] how come I'm not there must be something wrong with me

[00:40:06] okay so it's anger plus this like nagging dissatisfaction that then leads to

[00:40:16] giving up and the antidote to sadness isn't happiness it's wholeness

[00:40:30] and I'll give you a quote that manifests this Carl Jung said the whole man

[00:40:39] and he is making a gendered comment so let's reframe it the whole human

[00:40:46] is not just one who has walked with God but is someone who's wrestled with the devil

[00:40:56] see this is this is the ultimate cheat code in the video game of life

[00:41:01] you have to do the thing that is counterintuitive you have to walk into the dark places

[00:41:09] and ask yourself why is this place dark was that the phrase um the gold is in the cave that you

[00:41:18] fear to go with it Joseph Campbell said the treasure you seek is in the back of the cave

[00:41:23] thank you that's what was trying to say okay way in the fucking back where it's dark and scary

[00:41:32] because you know vocate you talk about the depression and suicide rates part of what I think

[00:41:42] propels depression and and we both know that's the number one cause of death for men between 35 and 60 years old

[00:41:51] part of what happens is that they have not been socialized to know what to do with those feelings

[00:42:02] and the buddhists teach us what to do with those feelings

[00:42:08] it's compassion etymologically the word compassion breaks down into calm to be with passion feelings

[00:42:17] the counterintuitive expression the thing that goes against the entire capitalist structure

[00:42:24] which would say buy a new car we're really good deodorant maybe take rogaine so your hair doesn't

[00:42:32] fall out the counterintuitive move is to be with the really difficult feelings

[00:42:42] because that's the path to wholeness and if you can practice that resiliency

[00:42:52] when the shit hits the fan because it always will

[00:42:58] what happens for me is when the depression comes back because it comes back every year

[00:43:04] my capacity to lift myself up and self soon is much stronger than it's ever been

[00:43:14] and so therefore i'm happier than i've been in the past

[00:43:21] does that make sense what i laid out there makes perfect sense as a student of psychotherapy

[00:43:29] we just covered depression and suicide last weekend

[00:43:33] of course so what would be your advice what would it be if you know someone middle

[00:43:42] age listening to the podcast goes like i hear you jerry what do you say y'all make sense this is

[00:43:49] this is great stuff what should i do tomorrow to to change my life or what should i do today

[00:43:56] to to face my demons to go to the dark place to find the gold should i go into therapy should i

[00:44:04] start meditating should i i don't know start running a marathon what

[00:44:10] i i'll answer it this way valken yeah last week i was doing a public talk i did a fireside

[00:44:17] chat and book reading from my new book reunion and there were a variety of people in the audience

[00:44:26] and there was one young man who's about 25 years old

[00:44:31] and the day after the talk we had set up for a book signing so people could come and chat and

[00:44:38] get a book signed and he came up to me with tears in his eyes and he kind of asked his

[00:44:45] own version of that question um he asked the way he framed it was how can i be more actualized

[00:44:57] and what he was getting at is something that's very very common for folks that age and into their 30s

[00:45:05] should i meditate every day should i journal every day should i do psilocybin should i

[00:45:11] you know go into therapy should i do this this this this this this and the wish for then answer is

[00:45:22] really heartfelt i could feel what does he want and what does he really want what he really

[00:45:31] wanted valka was to not feel broken and so rather than giving him the answer i did something

[00:45:39] really frustrating and i said what if you're already actualized

[00:45:48] and the reason that that comes to mind is that if someone is listening to play out the scenario

[00:45:54] that you described if somebody's listening and says this all makes sense jerry what should i do

[00:45:59] the first step would be to understand that you're not broken you just feel broken

[00:46:11] and i can't tell you how enormously liberating that perspective is

[00:46:18] if you're not broken then the things that you need to do

[00:46:25] really are about going to the back of the cave david

[00:46:32] and realizing that there is a treasure there

[00:46:37] the second thing to do and if you're listening to this show you already know this to be true

[00:46:44] no matter how you feel you're not alone

[00:46:47] you're not alone because one of the worst things we do in our society to people who are suffering

[00:46:57] is we inadvertently and unconsciously and unintentionally exacerbate the feeling that

[00:47:05] they're the only one so i'm broken and i'm the only one

[00:47:11] and just for extra dose of helping what we often feel is and i'm the worst one

[00:47:21] okay so now i'm going to get into a different posture this is what i would call my elder posture

[00:47:28] which i'm trying on and feeling really good about

[00:47:34] you have not you're not alone others have come before you

[00:47:41] we have survived you will survive

[00:47:47] you will survive

[00:47:52] and it's going to take work and after enlightenment top would carry water

[00:48:00] you still have your work to do as a human being

[00:48:03] from that place yeah exercises did help you do self-reflection read poetry go dance

[00:48:14] hike in the woods meditate sit and meditation walking meditation do journaling practices

[00:48:21] listening to podcasts read really good books buy lots of copies of jerry's books give them out

[00:48:28] to your friends all of these things can help but the most important shift is the mindset shift

[00:48:36] i'm not broken i'm just in pain

[00:48:43] does that answer your question it does answer my question and it's

[00:48:48] to be honest i think that's what people need to hear as well yeah

[00:48:52] yeah i mean one question that i had and it sort of follows on from

[00:48:59] sort of conversation that we had earlier about you know feeling old and you know the

[00:49:04] bulk have mentioned about working with with you know startup founders

[00:49:09] that you know were born in this millennium and you've talked about sort of being an elder

[00:49:18] and we had a guest on i mean they work with with young young adults that are approaching

[00:49:25] like legal manhood that haven't had the best start in lives and and sort of the way that

[00:49:31] they explained it was like well you know you've got it's almost providing providing is probably

[00:49:39] not the best word but it's you know passing on this advice from you know beautifully flawed men

[00:49:48] that have fucked it all up and come out the other side and then i'll write i'll you know i want to

[00:49:54] pass this advice on i mean do you think that have we have we almost lost touch with that

[00:50:04] sort of that wisdom of older generations because we're always in pursuit of

[00:50:10] finding the new thing and and the quickest way to do something rather than going back to basics and

[00:50:17] that feels like an incredibly complicated open question well i think you already know the answer

[00:50:24] don't you because you know at base what you're asking is have we lost touch with that

[00:50:30] uh in reunion i argue that that one of the pathways to overcoming the separation that divides us

[00:50:41] is to look to our ancestors and turn them into elders

[00:50:47] and i would argue that it is the elders of our societies who are the holders of the wisdom

[00:50:56] and that disconnect i don't think by the way it's a recent phenomena i'm not of the ilk who would

[00:51:06] say well it's all tiktok's fault or it's all facebook's fault the truth is we destroy our elders

[00:51:16] time and time again it's part of this human condition the to access what your guess was was

[00:51:26] describing i think is really important one of the gifts that i feel right now and you can hear

[00:51:33] it even in my voice and in my language by allowing myself to embrace elder my elderhood

[00:51:42] what i'm doing is not i'm embracing the life that is implicit in transition and aging

[00:51:51] and what it's doing for me is giving me new energy new a kind of revitalized experience

[00:52:01] to realize that rather than just dying

[00:52:06] that like the oak tree my job is to shelter those who are coming behind me

[00:52:14] and assure them that they're gonna be okay and every now and then i might slap them

[00:52:20] upside the head and say sit up straight stop being a jerk be kind but ultimately if we see

[00:52:30] this transition period not as the dying of the old but as preparation for the elderhood

[00:52:38] boy talk about giving meaning and purpose and i think i wandered completely from your question

[00:52:46] but i mean what you're describing and you mentioned chip earlier that's that chips work right chip connelly

[00:52:54] right the elderly if i say the elderly stuff i'm not there yet i'm still in mid-month yeah

[00:53:02] it's very funny chip and i have circled each other through mutual friends for several years and

[00:53:08] then shortly after he turned 60 in december i got an email from him and uh the essence and

[00:53:15] then we ended up on a call and the essence of the message was the the council of elders is calling

[00:53:20] you i said did you know that i turned 60 but i told him dude but you know that mindset

[00:53:31] enables me to connect to younger people so for example in reunion um there's a chapter in there

[00:53:40] where i talk about my relationship with my father or more specifically coming to understand

[00:53:45] more deeply what his journey was like which was a necessary component of my own movement through

[00:53:53] this midlife period again what does it mean to be a good man who was my first model of what a man

[00:53:59] was my father right so i wrote this book um and there's a line in there where i quote

[00:54:08] tenacy williams psychiatrist in conversation with tenacy williams and the psychiatrist said to him

[00:54:16] when you begin to well you'll begin to forgive the world when you've begun to forgive your father

[00:54:27] oh yeah are you okay david yeah yeah no that's uh yeah back back right yeah right right right

[00:54:35] so we just got a window into david's childhood so thank you for that i got you buddy

[00:54:45] okay you have to read reunion and then you have to write to me okay so um but this young man who's 22

[00:54:56] wrote to me and we got on a phone call and he was just volunteers he's like i can't forgive my father

[00:55:05] i said start with understanding him start asking your question yourself questions like

[00:55:12] how has this ancestor how did he get to be the way he was what happened in his life

[00:55:21] you know in my father's life he was adopted at age 18 at 18 months and so for the first 18 months

[00:55:30] of his life he was william michael heffernan the son of a 20 year old irish immigrant poor in new york

[00:55:42] whose father disowned him

[00:55:47] and then at 18 months he became drome veto colonna the child of italian-american immigrants

[00:55:55] and he found out about this on his fucking wedding day when his the woman he knew as his mother

[00:56:07] so angry with him for getting married to my mother stood at the back of the church and screamed

[00:56:12] putana putana putana whore whore whore you're not my son you were adopted

[00:56:20] and feeling

[00:56:26] enabled me to understand his lifelong depression as it manifested in alcoholism

[00:56:34] so did he did he tell you this or is this sort of something that you found retrospectively

[00:56:41] this was used by my mother as a weapon against him right my father never talked about it

[00:56:53] so we grew up with this knowledge but it was only 30 years after his death that i

[00:57:00] reconnected with it and i'll do a spoiler alert i ended up in ireland at the grave

[00:57:07] site of his biological mother to tell her what her son was like and what her grandchildren were like

[00:57:17] that's the last chapter of the book wow

[00:57:25] this is great if i say it's it's it's helpful and i and i hope to listen to this cd equally

[00:57:33] that that's if i say if nothing else it's a lot of food for thought and of course the reason to buy your books so

[00:57:41] well and to give lots of gifts of them i look i yeah maybe we'll close with this

[00:57:46] we all have a reunion to do part of the reason to do that is because what else the world

[00:57:53] but part of the reason that we need to reunite with the dismembered parts of ourselves

[00:57:59] the forgotten parts of our family tree is so so that we can be whole

[00:58:07] midlife is an ideal time to embark on the reunion process

[00:58:12] to go back in time and say what happened to what were they feeling

[00:58:19] what was their experience like and how has that shown up in my life

[00:58:23] so that i can then be whole and participate in a healing process for others

[00:58:31] do you feel the hopefulness in that

[00:58:35] and i think everyone in midlife is going through that and if they need to should

[00:58:40] should go through that because if you don't heal yourself you can't as you say heal the world right

[00:58:46] amen

[00:58:47] i was about to say that i thought a better don't but you said it first

[00:58:55] jerry this was amazing and once we often say that to guests i'd love to have you back

[00:59:02] i took lots of notes and i hopefully admit i haven't read all your books yet i've

[00:59:08] read summaries i will know well let's make a deal you both have to read at least one of the books

[00:59:16] and then we'll come back and we'll have yeah and talk about that sounds like an awesome idea

[00:59:21] yeah because this is this is deep and this is useful and i think to be honest for me

[00:59:28] as i said i'm in awe after listening to to your conversation with tim years ago but

[00:59:35] this brings us home right this this this is the stuff i mean you know we

[00:59:40] you know we haven't talked about me but for me there's so many connection points from buddhism's

[00:59:45] therapy healing midlife tattoos there's so many you know things where i just relate in my head

[00:59:52] and i want to put it together and i'm sure that there will be lots of listeners out there that

[00:59:58] that are sitting here now going like shit i need to start connecting the dots

[01:00:03] to to become a whole essentially that's right that's the work of your life yeah so thank you so much

[01:00:12] thank you this was amazing you got it thanks so much jerry thank you

[01:00:21] thanks for listening to this week's episode feel free to reach out to folker or david

[01:00:25] via our website www.manupdown.com or podcast at manupdown.com with any feedback or to let us

[01:00:33] know what topics you'd like us to cover in the future hear you again soon